Metz? What do you think of it?

[Future Fireman 4]

The Metz seems to be a nice ladder for some, but I'm wondering, with it's short wheelbase and small bucket (even though it is rated as a Ladder according to NFPA) can it hold enough stuff for us? I mean, I've seen trucks bigger than it and some of those compartments were packed with stuff. Also, there's only 10 or so up here in NY and New England, right? So there's not alot of examples around (at least to my knowledge) Also, a plus that which I see is the Auto-Level turntable. Could be really handy on steep slopes.

What do you think?

Mike

Edited July 11, 2007 by Future Fireman

[JBE 328]

I think the Fire Service in general could pick up a few tips from our European brethren. No frills, get the job done kind of equipment. The Metz rigs are, imho an example of such.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I believe the the Metz fills a need here in the US, but it's fairly specific. If you have a community that has rural roads that require being closed during spring months, or dirt roads that are not conducive to tandem axles then the Metz maybe a perfect alternative. There is some sacrifice though with compartment space and functionality of the aerial.

The bucket on the end is barely big enough to two firefighters and hampers what they can do from it. The aerial itself is very narrow and if you add the waterway that is inside on the ladder it is even trickier to climb, never mind bring a victim down. The handrails are short making it even harder to climb for those with fear of heights, meaning victims are less likely to climb down as readily. The all electronic set-up system will keep you out of trouble, but if you don't know the proper slopes and angles it may prevent you from going where you need.

The speed of set-up and flight to the window to me doesn't offset the poor climbability, poor master stream set up compared to true towers and the difficulty in removing a victim just from the turntable down.

But if you need a 100 aerial on a chassis the size of a pumper, its really one of the only options.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Everyone has to remember that this type of ladder is made for European and Asian cities were space is crucial and there is not much of it. There are several advantages and disadvantages to this type of rig also as everyone here has expressed. Avon, CT has one and is the only one in CT that I know of. Spring Valley H & L in Rockland County and Nantucket, MA have one also.

You can't beat the set up, adjustable rigging for hilly terrain, and operating easy, but then again like everyone has said, you lose a lot too.

The rig definitely has its place in the US fire service but I think if a department is going to purchase something like this, they better have done their homework really well.

[Guest partyrock]

antique, you mentioned the difficulty in climbing the Metz Aerial, but the same is true for all aerials. Their ladders are meant for emergency escape procedures, at least thats the procedure that I've seen for aerials. Do you guys do it differently?

[antiquefirelt 994]

antique, you mentioned the difficulty in climbing the Metz Aerial, but the same is true for all aerials. Their ladders are meant for emergency escape procedures, at least thats the procedure that I've seen for aerials. Do you guys do it differently?

The Metz doesn't claim to be a true Tower Ladder. In fact they only claim to be an NFPA stick with a bucket attachment. And the waterway is within the rails of the fly section of the ladder, nit below like most American trucks with prepiped sticks. So if you are planning on using the Metz to ascend the roof with a saw and hook, you might find it much more difficult given the narrow width. If you intend to bring a victim out, which must be their forte given they market the crap out of the speed to make a window upon arrival, you'll find it very narrow for guiding down a conscious victim. Possible? Sure and defineately better than nothing. Like I said, how easy is it to convince the average person to climb down a stick, nevermind a narrow one that the handrails provide virtually no visual barrier. Yes, you can use the basket, but you'll only get one firefighter and maybe two fully cooperable victims in the basket at once.

I don't quite understand your point that all aerials are meant for emergency escape procedures? I would agree that is the only real reason for the ladder on a tower apparatus, but what about straight sticks, which is what the Metz really is? I understand the next generation Metz for the US will be wider and provide taller handrails and a better way of descending the ladder to the ground. I do beleive they have a niche to fill, but like was mentioned above, you must have done all the research first.

[Future Fireman 4]

Party, Antique, I just want to make sure I have this right. So, If a TL (or ladder tower per NFPA??) has a full ladder, not like the little one on the back of an Aerialscope, We're to use the bucket, NOT climb the ladder? Around here, departments if the Tower's already set up, they generally don't move it. They climb.

Mike

[Guest partyrock]

Antique, when I was using "aerial" I was referring to buckets. Sorry for the confusion. A stick is meant to be climbed. You won't see me climbing or sending someone to climb a Metz aerial as they are designed now. In my opinion they should only be used as a TL.

Nearly all my experience has been on Aerielscopes, but the vast majority of the depts that I've seen in the Tri-state area use the ladder on a TL for escape purposes only.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Antique, when I was using "aerial" I was referring to buckets. Sorry for the confusion. A stick is meant to be climbed. You won't see me climbing or sending someone to climb a Metz aerial as they are designed now. In my opinion they should only be used as a TL.

Nearly all my experience has been on Aerialscopes, but the vast majority of the depts that I've seen in the Tri-state area use the ladder on a TL for escape purposes only.

I couldn't agree more. Our new ALF midmount is great, but we wanted a Scope. Alas, the Scope came in well over $100K more without all the requisite equipment (generator, lighting, etc.)

As from what I've seen and played with on the Metz, I don't think it's much of a tower. The bucket is tiny and there is no lip to work from. As I said, it will meet the needs of many rural places where weight and overall size is the first concern.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Party, Antique, I just want to make sure I have this right. So, If a TL (or ladder tower per NFPA??) has a full ladder, not like the little one on the back of an Aerialscope, We're to use the bucket, NOT climb the ladder? Around here, departments if the Tower's already set up, they generally don't move it. They climb.

Mike

Totally up to the dept. and what the particular operation is. If its defensive and you're spelling guys aloft, then many Ladder-towers have full climbing ladders making a change out without moving the bucket. True tower-ladders such as the Aerialscope or Sutphen generally have "escape ladders". I know as of Dec. of 2007 FDNY's SOPs still showed that the escape ladder was to be used in a last resort when rappelling was not possible!!! Partyrock? I guess thats a good reason for a City such as Mt. Vernon to save a few bucks and eliminate the "escape ladder" altogether. We actually had that same clause in our tower spec for a Scope. In fact on Monday we're running an agility test for new hires and we decided that for the aerial climb that entering then exiting the bucket might be a little much to ask of some. While we'd like to weed these people out the potential for an accidental fall is to great with untrained persons. Plus when I look out the back of the bucket down the ladder at 93' up and 75 degrees, I know I'd rather wait til the fires over to go down by elevator!

[Guest partyrock]

There are still several things in our ops guide that need to be updated. I'll have to check and see if thats still one of them. I've seen guys have to make the climb down, but I've never seen anyone rappel down. Once saw a guy and a stokes hoisted under a bucket, but thats entirely different. Not for nothing, I don't care what kind of ladder you have going down the bucket, climbing out of the bucket and onto the ladder is something I would never be too excited about.