Stretching A Line At An MVA

[x635 4,066]

I've noticed a lot of department's stretch a line at an MVA.

What I've also noticed is these same firefighters don't have an SCBA on, nor a hood that's ready to go.

So then, what's the point of stretching a line? What happens if the car catches fire? Do the firefighters run back and put on SCBA's, or suck in the toxic fumes?

If no SCBA, then what's the point of proactively stretching a line?

[Guest partyrock]

The guys on the line at an MVA practically speaking don't need to be geared up head to toe, especially on a day like today in the middle of the highway at a long extrication. If the line is charged and ready to go anything that breaks out should be able to be handled quickly before it becomes dangerous. Use the reach of the stream. Don't set up on the opposite side of the car that the extrication is taking place on.

[PVFD233 68]

Personally a SCBA would be sufficient w/ all the junk you can breath in from a car fire, as for a hood no, no interior attack off course. I think most people just don't think the car could light up and are not prepared for when it does.

Edited July 9, 2007 by SPFC56-233

[Remember585 815]

Stretching the line and staffing it would be better if the members were packed up. BUT, the main reason that I would have line pulled is to offer a line of protection for the crew working the tool(s). Shooting the stream from a fair distance away could offer that protection they need to get out of trouble in a hurry, and can be placed between the patient and the fire until it can be knocked down. It should be a 1 3/4" line, not the damn booster some still pull.

As for the hood, no need, in my eyes. There's no logical reason to be that close that you would need it at a vehicle fire.

[pjreilly 6]

It should be a 1 3/4" line, not the damn booster some still pull.

Do they still have booster lines? Maybe that is another topic, BUT the line is pulled to protect the crew working if the STUFF hits the fan. The car fire would be second in priorities, the safety of the crew is TOP priority. My 2 cents.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I respect much of the options mentioned on here in regard to PPE levels. However, you should have a full compliment of PPE on if you are manning a line that is stretched. If weather conditions are an issue, then rotate personnel as needed. This had to happen often in my department in Virginia due to the heat and humidity with the policy being the safety line personnel had to have full PPE. As far as not needing a hood I often had the same thought process until the nozzleman I was backing up was sweeping his stream under a fully involved car, as we were approaching the wind direction changed and blew the smoke right in our faces limiting visibility significantly, when the wind shifted it also picked up in speed and blew the fire right in our faces, he realized this quickly and hit the passenger compartment however the risk of injury was there.

I honestly believe that allowing personnel in certain instances to drop gear here and drop gear there, will cause them to do so in other capacities. This goes along with wearing extrication gloves during training and then saying you will wear your firefighting gloves on a "real" scene. You will do what you program yourself to do.

[Guest]

I respect much of the options mentioned on here in regard to PPE levels. However, you should have a full compliment of PPE on if you are manning a line that is stretched. If weather conditions are an issue, then rotate personnel as needed. This had to happen often in my department in Virginia due to the heat and humidity with the policy being the safety line personnel had to have full PPE. As far as not needing a hood I often had the same thought process until the nozzleman I was backing up was sweeping his stream under a fully involved car, as we were approaching the wind direction changed and blew the smoke right in our faces limiting visibility significantly, when the wind shifted it also picked up in speed and blew the fire right in our faces, he realized this quickly and hit the passenger compartment however the risk of injury was there.

I honestly believe that allowing personnel in certain instances to drop gear here and drop gear there, will cause them to do so in other capacities. This goes along with wearing extrication gloves during training and then saying you will wear your firefighting gloves on a "real" scene. You will do what you program yourself to do.

Als,

Based on your last statement I get the impression that you don't feel extrication gloves should be used. at a car accident If that is the case, may I ask why? Also, what types of gloves/glove configurations do you recommend for EMS personnel working an MVA?

Thank you,

Jared

Edited July 9, 2007 by JaredHG

[Guest moose__72]

As for the gloves, our department requires that any gloves used on a scene must have a NFPA rating. Mainly to cover us if it hits the fan and there is an injury, it keeps the insurance company happy.

[NJMedic 96]

I bet this guy was happy he was wearing his PPE including hood.

Magnesium Explodes in Car Fire, Florida Firefighter Walks Away Uninjured

On December 2, 2004, Delray Beach (FL) Fire-Rescue firefighters were extinguishing a Cherokee Jeep fire when the magnesium reacted with the water causing an explosion as the firefighters were next to it.

One firefighter was caught in the exploding magnesium. Due to having all of his PPE on, he was not injured. The bunker coat, hood, and other components were damaged by the fire.

Continuous application of water extinguished the fire, however there were several more reactions before the fire was completely extinguished.

-

Edited July 9, 2007 by NJMedic

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Jared:

What I was referring to are those whom often wear extrication gloves at calls other then extrications. Fireground, car fires, brush fires and training. As long as those whom choose to wear them wear them when its appropriate its no problem. I really have no difference in preference of what I wear when performing extrication. I also don't like to carry an extra amount of stuff so I only have firefighting gloves in my gear. If you keep both in your pockets whatever you wore last will come out first and you could not pay attention in a critical instant where you are reacting and put whatever on. Or it wastes time when you need firefighting gloves and your waiting on your partner because he can't leave his extrication gloves on the ground where they fell. Or you have another glove holder hanging off your gear which can be an entanglement hazard or hinder you if you have to perform a head first ladder bailout.

As far as gloves for EMS...whatever standard precaution gloves. How could you assess a patient with anything but "exam" gloves on. If glass seems to be an issue, double them up.

[Guest partyrock]

When operating at a car fire I fully advocate full PPE (hood included). During an extrication I just don't see the benefit of the extra gear.

Jared Ergodyne makes the gloves used by FDNY EMS. Personally, and from what I've seen most the guys in EMS agree the gloves aren't worth the hassle. Most just stick with their latex gloves or occasionally break out the old leather gloves

[ny10570 745]

The EMS gloves are the ProFlex X-Factor 734WP gloves. Partyrock is right, most of us just keep the gloves stashed with the rest of the Banana suit. The biggest problem with gloves is every time they get contaminated you have to clean them. Stick with the latex and save yourself a few bucks.

[Guest]

Thanks all for your input and advice!

Edited July 9, 2007 by JaredHG

[firemoose827 324]

I kind of think its funny were are even still having this discussion...SAFETY should be the top priority. Look people, we have started to settle in to some very bad habits and it is killing our brothers and sisters, just in case you havnt noticed. Complacency was just talked about in other threads and a lot of you were agreeing with the fact that we are ALL suffering from it in one way or the other. The lazy mind sets of " Dont need it", "Well this is how its always done", or "were not in danger, we dont need EVERYTHING." needs to stop. Does everyone remember the guy who was severely burnt in a live burn training evolution? The guy who only had on an SCBA going into the building to adjust the burning barrell they were using and it ended up flashing on him as he was exiting? He got burned when the plastic tarp they used as a door melted to his skin? I dont remeber where exactly it was but it was a while ago.

The picture posted by NJMedic says it all...Sh#@ happens, we MUST be prepared for everything, people count on us to do so, and when we arent people see it in the news and we are judged and ridiculed. I for one am tired of being ridiculed for other firefighters laziness.

I went to a dumpster fire last week and when I got off the engine I was the only one in full PPE, including mask. Our Lt was in jeans and a T-shirt looking me over asking, "Your wearing a pack, why?." I simply asked him if he knew the exact contents of the dumpster and if he could verify that a Haz-mat was not present. He looked at me for a second, and wandered back to the truck.

If you think its "OK" to not wear your full PPE for ANY reason, maybe you should seriously re-think being in a fire dept. I am tired of attending your funerals.

PLEASE stay safe.

Moose

[Guest moose__72]

I agree with Jonesy on this one. Our biggest enemy is complacency. If we begin to get lax here, we're gonna pay for it there. I goes back to the old "Train the way you play" gig. I see it daily in my own house, makes me want to scream. And the younger guys look at you like knuckle head when you bring it up. Thank god seniority allows me to smack the probies as a 'training tool'.

Seriously, in the world of anything can happen, it's better to take the extra step. The way they build cars these days, and all the bad stuff a car can hit, it pays to be ready. If it's hot or it's going to be a while, rotate crews. Rehab.

Be safe.

Moose, part 2