A Single Motorcycle Accident

[x635 4,066]

Recently, I passed by a motorcycle accident on a local parkway. I was going in the other direction, and only saw the scene briefly. But, what I saw made me shake my head.

A pocket-rocket type motorcycle had wiped out in the left lane of a three lane highway, with a large shoulder and big grassy median, that was a staight shoot down to the local trauma center.

Just some thoughts, NOT SPEFIC TO THIS INCIDENT but used as an example:

For what seem to be a small, islolated (despite the injuries whatever they may have been), there were an incredibly large amount of resources dedicated to it. I observed numerous chiefs vehicles, several fire apparatus from three different agencies including two heavy rescues, and several EMS vehicles. The only vehicle blocking the scene was a State Trooper vehicle. Traffic was stopped compltelty, despite the accident being in the far left lane. I don't know if a line was stretched or not.

I really don't know why a single motorcycle accident would require such resources. This accident may have been on the border of a couple of jurisdictions, including a dual response district, but no matter how much I think about it, I can't understand why the first incident commander on scene couldn't manage their resources better.

It's dissapointing to think about on so many levels. I think if resources in this area were more effectively managed, we could save on money, allow officers and members to gain more experiences, reduce fuel costs and wear and tear on apparatus, and have better staffing distrobution. It's also scary that some departments commit the bulk of their manpower to an incident such as this......what if a fire was to come in? We all know that the first people to respond on the volunteer level are usually the most active and the most trained.

The first officer to sign on the air should be able to communicate with PD on scene or dispatch and know how to allocate their resources immediately. I mean, a motorcycles accident, single victim, should be a no-brain typically. This is a problem throughout the area. Everyone hears a hot job and wants to go. A motorcyle accident is basically a scoop-and-run job if there is no pin, and an AI for the PD sometimes. Once the wrecker gets there and any dangers mitigated, the FD's job is done.

Not to mention each and every vehicle responding is at a higher risk for an accident.

[DOC22 1]

Great point, Seth!

First of all, in my Department, any call on the interstate, NO personal vehicles are to respond to the highway(unless you are driving there and come upon it). Rescue and a pumper will go first. if there is a need for more, that will be addressed as required. Pumper will stage to take one or more lanes as needed. we may bring a third large vehicle to set as a blocker. And we do have a good working relationship with SP, which can be a bid help.

[ONLOCATION 24]

I am pretty sure I heard this call go out aswell, not going to mention the location or what departments. I am going to agree that yes at some points that mis-managment of apparatus being assigned to or being requested to an incident happens here, but doesn't mean that it's not always an "Issue".

A reason in my eyes on why this seems to happen more frequently is the lack of Communication between multiple Dispatch centers or locations. Also Ego's can come into play, but at this present incident I don't believe this was the case. District Lines in certain area's are absolutey crazy, having another department not being requested to an incident 200ft. from the front of there firehouse and the actual coverage department being almost a 10-12 min. response away is scary. Cell Phone calls obviously screw incidents up as the caller is not familar with the area and the Dispatcher/calltaker has to use what is given to him/her.

In my perspective getting Emegency assistants to an incident is paramount rather that disputing who's it is. It all comes down to commmunication. Whatever it may be whether ego, wrong location given, or the incident was in a completely different distict and another was dispatched to that call, someone got there and the people in need got help. Another thing that I believe that might have come into play is a statement made multiple times on this board is that of dispatch, If an Ambulance and PD are dispatched to the scene of an incident as this being a motorcycle accident, why is the Fire department not requested awswell? Do u really know what you have till you get there?

Having agreements set-up prior to incidents on Large Area roadways such as the Taconic State Parkway, I-684, and the Thruway (I-287) to ensure that apparatus are going to get to an incident do to Traffic Back-up and lack of access from one direction to another makes sense. Point blank you don't know what you have till you get there, make your best judgement unitl you know what you have on hand. Return rather than have to request when you don't have the resources there cause there standing by in quarters.

Just my two cents

[Oswegowind 17]

First due should give a preliminary upon arrival (size up) no matter what type of call other than basic first responder on EMS jobs cause those have to be evaluated a bit more...That unit should be able to decide pretty quickly what resources are required at the scene and 10-8 those who are not! There is definitely no need for "2" heavy rescue co's at the scene of a motorcycle accident! Even with pin, 1 should be more than enough...LOL

Correction, 1 extrication company, cause ladder co's and engine co's in some areas can do extrication.

[x635 4,066]

I am pretty sure I heard this call go out aswell, not going to mention the location or what departments.

Please note this incident occured recently, not particularly today and this situation is just used as an example, FOR DISCUSSION and learning, and not aimed at a specific department or incident, since I did say it was an area problem.

[AFS1970 504]

In Stamford due to the two highways that cut across town, we have alot of these dual response areas. We have standing orders in most cases that whoever gets the call first on a border area calls the next town for a dual response. The first units on scene go to work and determine who's district the call is in, they will usually cancel any units that are not needed pretty fast. But we also have a policy that applies off the highways also, that if you find yourself operating in another district you notify that district and leave it up to them if they want to respond. Since there is some legal responsability to respond within your own district, usually at elast one unit comes in. In these cases it is important to be very descriptive in what type of situation you have and what if anything you need.

[Goose 188]

I bet they launched the brid.

Everyone wants to be the hero and/or give their lights/sirens a workout. It's a real shame. I always find things go allot smoother when you've got less people aka an APPROPRIATE response. At work i've got myself and my partner along with a sup (additional ambulances will back us up if need be) and an engine or engine and ladder response along with the shift commander. Thing's work so perfectly and we aren't draining our respective response area's of resources. There is rarely an over-response and you've never have 40 people showing up out of no where and all giving their respective 2 cents.

[firemoose827 324]

I bet they launched the brid.

Everyone wants to be the hero and/or give their lights/sirens a workout. It's a real shame. I always find things go allot smoother when you've got less people aka an APPROPRIATE response. At work i've got myself and my partner along with a sup (additional ambulances will back us up if need be) and an engine or engine and ladder response along with the shift commander. Thing's work so perfectly and we aren't draining our respective response area's of resources. There is rarely an over-response and you've never have 40 people showing up out of no where and all giving their respective 2 cents.

I was going to add that comment... I bet being right down the road from the trauma center they STILL called the bird!!

In our district we would roll an ambulance and the rescue for traffic controll. The engine would only be special called by a chief for fire controll or wet down.

[Fex404 0]

As you all have said it is very important that the first unit there communicates well. My dept had a very serious motorcycle accident on the Taconic on Sunday. Two motorcyclists and a car. one motorcyclist hit the guardrail and the bike bounced off at a car and the car swerved and ended up loosing control and another motorcyclist t-boned the car. Very messy. One victim was about 100ft down laying in the middle of the highway. The communications were thankfully clear and they got the road closed before further damage was done.

It is so important that you send enough resources but you never know what that is untill someone can asses the scene. It gets even harder when there is more then one agency especially when they operate on completely different frequencies.

Unfortunately at this specific incident we had to keep 2 of the 3 lanes closed for hours as an AI was done by PD.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Here is the problem, nobody will get out of bed or stop what they are doing for a elderly person that fell but they will go crazy when they here a pin job, motorcycle accident, etc... That is why you saw so many people at the scene. Maybe it was on the border but the fact of the matter was people where there in there own cars or whatever. They should just tone out and let people respond to their DEPTS then find out the nature.

[Fex404 0]

Well in my dept we are very strict about driving to scene. You must arrive on a truck unless the incident prevents you from getting to the firehouse. Especially on the parkway there is absolutely no POV's.

[Guest MRK303]

They should just tone out and let people respond to their DEPTS then find out the nature.

The problem with not letting responders know what the call is until they are at the station is that some departments have multiple stations that they respond to. In my department, the tanker and the FAST truck are at different stations. My point being: resources could be spread out between different stations within a department. Before you get to the firehouse, you should be preplanning for the call. If you don’t know the nature of the call...it’s hard to preplan

[Fex404 0]

To get back on the subject - its very easy for someone passing by to produce their own thought on the matter but the fact is that they are just passerbys and they have no idea what is actually happening. the bike might be in the far left lane but the victim may be in the middle of the highway. Then if you dont have enough resources to block the road - we are in big trouble.

As we all know truck placement on the highways is extremely important for everyones safety and as we also know people will try and sueeze through any part that is not completely blocked. so its important to make sure the resources are on there way and if you dont need them send them back. If there is another call that you cant cover due to your incident at the time then you make the call for mutual aid.

But when push comes to shove if the fire gets out and lives are saved then we did our job. Every person on this board, career or volunteer, does something very special. Remember when people are running out of a structure or when people are trapped in a car who do they rely on? You!

[Guest partyrock]

But when push comes to shove if the fire gets out and lives are saved then we did our job. Every person on this board, career or volunteer, does something very special. Remember when people are running out of a structure or when people are trapped in a car who do they rely on? You!

That doesn't insulate us from our responsibility to be self critical and to improve our operations. I have NEVER been on a perfect job and don't expect it to happen in my lifetime. Until that day comes where an incident goes perfectly we should be analyzing everything.

[ex-commish 490]

Here is the problem, nobody will get out of bed or stop what they are doing for a elderly person that fell but they will go crazy when they here a pin job, motorcycle accident, etc... That is why you saw so many people at the scene. Maybe it was on the border but the fact of the matter was people where there in there own cars or whatever. They should just tone out and let people respond to their DEPTS then find out the nature.

I will take the elderly person who fell out bed anyday. Been to enough MVA's that I care for. Usually due to speeding, alcohol. or cell phones. While I will agree the pick and choose is a problem I don't think it pertains to the issue here. I blame lack of command, sop's and lack of communicating with other agencies which boils down to training in my opinion.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

If you have multiple FD stations then use different tones. I know that they do that in NEW RO or at least they did when I was doing EMS down there. Problem solved. Nobody has to bring their cars to the scene. I personally make people move their personal veh at scenes if they aren't in the middle of doing something. If they are in the middle, I tell them after the call not to bring their cars to the scene anymore. If they continue to to do that, then I will talk to an FD officer.

[Remember585 815]

If you have multiple FD stations then use different tones. I know that they do that in NEW RO or at least they did when I was doing EMS down there. Problem solved. Nobody has to bring their cars to the scene. I personally make people move their personal veh at scenes if they aren't in the middle of doing something. If they are in the middle, I tell them after the call not to bring their cars to the scene anymore. If they continue to to do that, then I will talk to an FD officer.

And, out of curiosity, what right do you, or any LEOs have to do this? If the FD or EMS agency has no rules saying a POV can't go to the scene, it isn't up to you to try and change that. I'll agree with you that there are times (too often) where the POVs line up and get in the way more then they help. But I don't see how you can tell a member of the FD or VAC they can't be there in their POV. I think if you disagree with the practice of this operation, then by all means make some constructive suggestions to the Department heads.

I've grown tired of having procedures questioned by people not in the organization or this field itself. I disagree with many things that I see some PDs do, but I don't dare mention them on scene, and in most cases I bring it to my chain of command to handle. (For the record I see things FD and EMS do too, including my own, that make me scratch my noggin, but I don't do it on scene - it's not the place.)

For example, I was on an EMS call earlier in the week and had a Cop, with no EMS background, question me on how I chose to move my patient. Instead of stooping to his level and getting into it on scene I just said, "if you don't like it, don't help." I then sent an e-mail to my Higher-up who hopefully will mention something to his boss. This is the 3rd time in only a month or so that he has questioned something I have done and I'm not putting up with it.

As for the number of resources on location of the scenario mentioned - seems like overkill to me, but I wasn't there and can't make a judgement without all the facts. I have no problem with dual-responses or special responses of resources, but like many of you said, once someone gets there and makes a size-up, kick them loose if you don't need them!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

It is up too me because I am the LAW on the road. If there is an accident scene it is my job to make sure that first the patients are being taken care of followed by making sure that we can get traffic moving if it is possible. I don't need 8000 volunteers in their own cars blocking the roadway and getting in the way of traffic. I am sorry that you get offended by this but one time a VOLUNTEER FF got into one of our POLICE CARS and moved it on a scene. Because LEO was a VOLUNTEER FF he only yelled at the guy. I may have done something else like charge him with Unauthorized Use. What right did that person or any other person have to move a POLICE CAR? What if one day I moved a Fire Truck? I would proably be fired. So use your common sense and leave your cars at the FIRE HOUSE. Just for the record, I have also asked FF Drivers to move the ENGINES if they are blocking the roadway in a manner that I feel they don't need. I am not against Volunteer FF because my father and two brothers are Volunteers so it is not about that. It is about responding in POV's.

BTW, I have a level of EMS and I will also chime in when they are doing something wrong on a call. We are not all about coffee and donuts like some of you think. LOL

[bmfd231 3]

It is up too me because I am the LAW on the road. If there is an accident scene it is my job to make sure that first the patients are being taken care of followed by making sure that we can get traffic moving if it is possible. I don't need 8000 volunteers in their own cars blocking the roadway and getting in the way of traffic. I am sorry that you get offended by this but one time a VOLUNTEER FF got into one of our POLICE CARS and moved it on a scene. Because LEO was a VOLUNTEER FF he only yelled at the guy. I may have done something else like charge him with Unauthorized Use. What right did that person or any other person have to move a POLICE CAR? What if one day I moved a Fire Truck? I would proably be fired. So use your common sense and leave your cars at the FIRE HOUSE. Just for the record, I have also asked FF Drivers to move the ENGINES if they are blocking the roadway in a manner that I feel they don't need. I am not against Volunteer FF because my father and two brothers are Volunteers so it is not about that. It is about responding in POV's.

BTW, I have a level of EMS and I will also chime in when they are doing something wrong on a call. We are not all about coffee and donuts like some of you think. LOL

I do not disagree with most of what you have said, especially any volunteer touching a PD vehicle. POV's are not permitted on our calls on any highways, but there are one or two who sometimes do it anyway, I am against it. It is dangerous enought on these roadways with apparatus, PD vehicles, etc, we do not need a thousand more cars. Most PD officers deal with the chief or lead officer should they need a piece of apparatus moved. We have always worked closely with the police on scene and have never had any problems, we all work together very nicely.

If the accident is one that was on the Taconic same day as the orginal post came out, I was at that call. It was a dual response call for Millwood and Briarcliff. Originally, the call came in as above Rt 134 so Yorktown was dispatched because it was there district. They continued south and eventually found the accident in Millwoods district, thus Millwood and Briarcliff were dispatched. State Police used a number of PD vehicles to close NB Taconic, not FD. Millwood had two units on scene and Briarcliff one. Briarcliff retired all apparatus once the ambulances left the scene, so I do not know when the remaining apparatus left. State PD kept the road closed for a photo investigation of the scene.

Dispite comments made berating this scene, it was not as it was stated by the original writer, should this be the scene he witnessed. Yes, there was one or two POV's on the 100 foot wide dirt median that were volunteers who came SB and then a number of chiefs cars, also on the same median. None of them were situated to cause any interference with the roadway. The POV's should not have been there, period!!!