Extrication Competitions

[maisela 0]

Here in PA, I joined my department's vehicle extrication team. We have competed twice this year and will be going to Nationals in two weeks. I was wondering if there are any extrication competition teams in Westchester County or if anyone has given thought to forming one (single department or regional) or hosting an event. I know that upstate there are a few (Chili, Brighton) as well as some from Long Island. Personally, I think these competitions are a great training resource and would love to see some events in Weschester County in the near future.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

maisela:

I'm interested in knowing what makes you feel that they are a great training resource. If you don't mind sharing. I have taken part in a couple of these myself and have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and I'm sure you have also. Is it the witnessing of different concepts, ideas or tactics as a resource? I often feel when I attend any of these that its not always about sound tactics, its more of how fast. Just interested in your side brother.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

From 2003-2005, the Dover Fire Department here in Dutchess County hosted an Extrication Competition each year. About 7-10 or so teams signed up/were invited each year.

An unnamed FD cleaned house all 3 years. In 2006, Dover chose to host a live fire event/competition instead of the extrication competition. No word on why.

[RDUNC67 1]

From 2003-2005, the Dover Fire Department here in Dutchess County hosted an Extrication Competition each year. About 7-10 or so teams signed up/were invited each year.

An unnamed FD cleaned house all 3 years. In 2006, Dover chose to host a live fire event/competition instead of the extrication competition. No word on why.

The biggest reason why was because the turnaround time on setting up a new "accident" and the cleanup from the previous evolution took too long and it was limited to 6-8 teams due to time constraints, it was suggested to do a "Fire" event/competition to allow more teams to sign up, but as it turned out, the same 6 or 7 departments showed up.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

The biggest reason why was because the turnaround time on setting up a new "accident" and the cleanup from the previous evolution took too long and it was limited to 6-8 teams due to time constraints, it was suggested to do a "Fire" event/competition to allow more teams to sign up, but as it turned out, the same 6 or 7 departments showed up.

Thanks for the info! It just seemed weird how for no apparent reason they changed their thing to the live fire arrangement.

There had been talk that the winner from the Dover competition would move on to a regional competition, but I never heard anything more on that topic either.

Edited July 4, 2007 by xfirefighter484x

[maisela 0]

maisela:

I'm interested in knowing what makes you feel that they are a great training resource. If you don't mind sharing. I have taken part in a couple of these myself and have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and I'm sure you have also. Is it the witnessing of different concepts, ideas or tactics as a resource? I often feel when I attend any of these that its not always about sound tactics, its more of how fast. Just interested in your side brother.

als:

I think witnessing the good, bad and the ugly is what makes it a great training resource. Seeing new concepts and tactics is as educational as seeing what not to do? It's not very often that we as firefighters have the chance to watch someone else's incident from start to finish and critique it in an open forum. It's also not very often that we're able to try out new techniques in a (relatively) safe environment without putting patients at risk. Granted, there are many things that are done in rescue competitions that are not meant for real world ops. I do, however think the benefits outweigh the negatives. The competitions that I've attended focused their judging heavily on the IC's plan of action, vehicle stabilization and patient contact. Having the opportunity to try out new extrication tools is also another added perk.

[AFS1970 504]

Why could't you run such a competition but only allow actions that would be allowed in Real World Ops? It has been brought up that training should reflect the real thing, could not competition reflect good training in the same way?

As for set up time, If you had a large enough area, could you not set up multiple colisions far enough from each other that they could either be worked simultaneously or in sequence, with the judges and audience moving from area to area, kind of like a golf game?

I have never seen one of these compititions but I think the potential is there to make this an excelent training tool. The key is to train towards real life operations, not to train towards competition rules, otherwise the event looses it's most important value.

[maisela 0]

Typically, what's done in competition reflects real world operations. However, their are some things that are done for show. Our team has a team member proficient in the air chisel, though we hardly use it on rescue scenes because not many of our guys are as comfortable with it as she is. I guess the best way to compare it would be to the Firefighter Combat Challenge. Though the stations mimic real-world skills, it's a competition environment, though extrication competitions seem to mimic real world scenarios more often than not.

As for expediting the time between setup and competition, the events I've been to typically do 2 pits: Limited and Unlimited. The Limited allows you an air chisel, two Sawz-Alls (one battery, one corded) and one Port-A-Power type tool. The Unlimited includes all that's in the Limited plus a full set of hydraulic tools (manfacturer chosen by each respective team). Usually one pit is prepped immediately after the last team is finished in the other pit. There's only about 20 minutes of down-time.

[JBJ1202 27]

I started a topic simliar to this one last year...

http://emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=9891&hl=JOLT

I agree that you do not get a chance to see other department operate at extrications (unless you are 2163 ) so something like this would be a good opportunity.

[fireman2138 0]

Right now the largest problem with these type competitions aside from liability issues is the availability of the vehicles, with scrap prices going up and up people are just junking there cars instead of donating them to the cause of training, for one of these competitions your looking at one car getting cut in each evolution and at least 2 cars involved sometimes 3, so figure lets say 10 teams thats a minimum of 11 cars if only doing one basic scenario per team, And who wants basic you want more advanced challenging evolutions ,I know somewhere out there is a video of the competition at Dover JH Ketcham Hose. I believe you might have a link to that one Xfirefighter484X ?

Edited July 6, 2007 by fireman2138

[Ging599 13]

One aspect of the competitions that I like (at least the ones I have participated in) is that teams are penalized for performing "unsafe actions" thereby promoting operating safely as well as quickly. I know having been on the receiving end of such a penalty that I am much less likely to perform that unsafe action again because it sticks in your mind. Plus, as was said before, you often pick up a technique or two to put into your repertoire.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I know somewhere out there is a video of the competition at Dover JH Ketcham Hose. I believe you might have a link to that one Xfirefighter484X ?

The video that I have the link to is for the winning competition team's (East Fishkill) scenario from the Dover competition, from 2005.

[fireman2138 0]

OO ok

I didn't know if it was of all the scenarios or not.

O well worth a shot I suppose

[pjreilly 6]

Why could't you run such a competition but only allow actions that would be allowed in Real World Ops? It has been brought up that training should reflect the real thing, could not competition reflect good training in the same way?

As for set up time, If you had a large enough area, could you not set up multiple colisions far enough from each other that they could either be worked simultaneously or in sequence, with the judges and audience moving from area to area, kind of like a golf game?

I have never seen one of these compititions but I think the potential is there to make this an excelent training tool. The key is to train towards real life operations, not to train towards competition rules, otherwise the event looses it's most important value.

REAL WORLD OPS? Alan real world ops do not apply to these extrication competitions. The city of Stamford had an extrication team in the late 90's that traveled to Mississagua Canada, Nashville TN, our state fire school, and Stamford even hosted a northeast regional qualifying competiton. Are there things that can be learned? Of Course, but not from these "set up" competitions. TERC, Transportation Emergency Response Committe, is the organization who runs these expo's, and they are so far from REAL WORLD OPS it is not even funny. It is geared up to a set of standards that TERC decides, not real world standards. The reason we stopped going to the competitions, is because it wasn't REAL WORLD. We were told flat out by one of the judges at a competition, that we had one of the top scenarios that he had ever judged, and we were a real world team, but this was a last chance qualifier for a team that needed to qualify for the national competition. THAT left a very sour taste with the team, and was decided the next year that we would no longer participate in fantasy competitions, we would just stick to REAL WORLD OPS. Terc has their own ideas of what real world extrication is, and it tends to lean heavily towards the Brightons and Chili's that "PLAY THE GAME". It is not a game, its real.

P.S. Idon't know how a BUFF such as you didn't know about our competition. LOL just kidding!!!!

Edited July 10, 2007 by pjreilly

[maisela 0]

I can understand where some people see the unrealistic side of extrication competitions. At York, PA and Tri-County, NJ (the last two competitions I've attended), there were some scenarios that tended to be on the unrealistic side. However, to completely dismiss these competitions is ridiculous. I'm sure most people on this forum have pulled up on wrecks where you can do nothing but scratch your head and say "How the f%@# did that happen?! Being exposed to incidents that are outside the realm of "run of the mill," especially in a training environment such as extrication competitions allows you to prepare for the unexpected. We're all familiar with Murphy's Law. My thought is that if an extrication scenario can be imagined, chances are it has occurred in real world ops or will happen. I know some teams get rubbed the wrong way and think that the judges have unrealistic sets of standards (some of them do) but at the end of the day the benefits of these competitions from a training perspective outweigh the negatives.

[ex-commish 490]

maisela:

I'm interested in knowing what makes you feel that they are a great training resource. If you don't mind sharing. I have taken part in a couple of these myself and have seen the good, the bad and the ugly and I'm sure you have also. Is it the witnessing of different concepts, ideas or tactics as a resource? I often feel when I attend any of these that its not always about sound tactics, its more of how fast. Just interested in your side brother.

I have never been part if a competition nor have I seen one but to add to ALS's comments...wouldn't "rushing" which I am sure occurs in these competitions cause mistakes?

[maisela 0]

Generally, I think that extrication competitions reinforce objectives we strive to complete at real-world extrication scenes: rapid patient contact (without putting first responders or the patient at risk), thorough stabilization and mitigation of hazards, a large path of egress and a rapid extrication time (without compromising the condition of the patient or the safety of first responders and the public).