Home Rule Is Bull

[x635 4,066]

OK, after much thought I've determined that this whole "Home Rule" issue that people have in their head that keeps people from working together in this county is a bunch of bull.

I may be an idiot here, but here are some specific examples:

1. County Hazmat Team, County Technical Rescue Team, County Training Facility, County Dispatch, County Police, County etc. If we can have all these service provided by the county, how come their can't be a County FD and EMS that can override local jurisdictions where needed? Doesn't County law superceede local law?

2. Fire Districts covering multiple towns. If so, how come we can't create "Mutual Aid Districts" to combine resources?

3. Technically, FDNY is a county fire department, in fact, a multiple county fire department.

4. PSAPs. If Westchester County is in charge of administering the 911 system, they can mandate that all calls come through a central resource, excluding the large cities. How does Dutchess do it?

Just some thoughts. I personally feel the "home rule" excuse is a lame excuse not to work together, and a huge copout. There's many ways we can work together to improve response times and manpower, save money, and work more efficiently. All it takes is some progressive leadership.

How much money could we save that could be better spent elsewhere by eliminating duplication of resources?

What interferes with this? Politicians and Egos. How can we change it? Speak up, and take some strong actions- like electing progressive leadership, on both the administrative and line side that aren't afraid to change things for the better. Write your local politicians about the problems, and the solutions. Band together with other members and departments to lobby for change.

The water is still, and it's time to make some waves. People's lives are at stake.

[firemoose827 324]

I agree with this. A county-wide system would eliminate the duplication of resources and deploy the ones we have better. Too many depts are trying to build egos when it comes to purchasing new equipment instead of filling a need in their district. The bigger the better..."put big expensive equipment we will probably never use on the new truck? HELL yes, than we look better to the other depts."

"Well, XYZ dept got a new Quint, why cant we? But even bigger and better!"

We need to join together and WORK together to provide a better service to the people we protect, after all, isnt that why we are here?

Good post.

[CPAGE 2]

Here in NJ in Hudson Co. 5 towns/citys merged to make the North Hudson Fire / Rescue Department. From what I have heard it was not so good when it first started but now it has worked out very well for them. Rumor has it that some other departments may be joining them as well. You will not see The Jersey City FD join in. But this was talked about for some areas in Bergen Co. as well but has not been set in place yet. In some parts of Begen Co. you a Tri-Boro dispatch for some special buildings and on working fires.

This could be a way to make this a easy way for all to play together in the same sand box.........But it will take years for all to get on the same page.

[Goose 188]

I appreciate this topic and i often find myself frustrated with the fractured system we live with in Westhcester.

Seth, just to answer one of your questions about the 911 System. Dutchess has a 911 Center which dispatches all County resources except the City of Poughkeepsie. They have their own 911 Center which handles calls within the city limits. They dispatch City Fire, PD and Alamo EMS. City 911 also serves as the County's backup 911 Center.

There is simply no reason why we cant look South and mimic their system which combind County wide FD and EMS and efficiently incorporating Career and Volunteer staff.

[DOC22 1]

I have a question concerning this County Fire Department I keep reading about. How do you propose to staff this? Are we thinking Career, Combo? As high as property taxes in Westchester County are now, where would the additional funding come from?? This is STRICTLY a question based on economics, and in NO WAY intended to incite any conflict whatsoever. It's just that the cost of staffing could be astronomical,

[Guest WolfEMT]

There's nothing wrong with the concept of Home Rule. What would improve the concept is the idea that Chiefs work together with those in the surrounding communities, so that in the event of an incident requiring mutual aid, the system works as flawlessly as possible. At least that's the way I envision it in a practical sense. As far as practice, I'm not from Westchester, so I wouldn't know. I do, however, understand some of your frustrations with the system and I think, if not for the issue of communication, the system would work fine.

[Goose 188]

Doc - i think the most efficient system would supplement career staffing with current volunteers. So every sub station would have a career contingent based on need (IE: 1 engine or whatever) and the volunteers would work along side.

Wolf - The notion of "home rule" isn't as black and white and goes beyond local leadership. Does every village, hamlet, or town in Westchester Need 2 Engines, 1 stick/TL, 1 Rescue, 1 Utility, 1 Brush Truck, 1 Tanker, 2 Ambulances, etc. etc. etc.? No. Thats a blatant misuse of public money. Have the County buy up/assume the resources and have them positioned to best serve everyone. 60 Control should be THE SOLE dispatch agency for EMS and Fire resources, no if ands or buts about it (larger Cities exempt if they want). Etc, etc. etc.

It's complicated stuff that gives me a headache after about 10 minutes.

Edited July 3, 2007 by Goose

[helicopper 1,050]

There's nothing wrong with the concept of Home Rule. What would improve the concept is the idea that Chiefs work together with those in the surrounding communities, so that in the event of an incident requiring mutual aid, the system works as flawlessly as possible. At least that's the way I envision it in a practical sense. As far as practice, I'm not from Westchester, so I wouldn't know. I do, however, understand some of your frustrations with the system and I think, if not for the issue of communication, the system would work fine.

Nothing wrong with the concept of home rule? You must not be from around here!

There are almost 200 separate and distinct political subdivisions in Westchester County from municipalities, school districts, water districts, fire districts, EMS districts, etc. Some towns have five different fire departments in them - each an autonomous body capable of levying its own taxes. That's absurd!

I look at the examples in the South and West and realize how backwards we are. They have true SYSTEMS in other parts of the world. We have little fiedoms where more is based upon what we "want" than what we "need" and we don't care what's going on around us, we're doing it OUR way.

There are definitely some benefits to regionalized services/systems and we could certainly benefit from many of them.

Good post - hopefully the discussion will keep going!

[DOC22 1]

Nothing wrong with the concept of home rule? You must not be from around here!

There are almost 200 separate and distinct political subdivisions in Westchester County from municipalities, school districts, water districts, fire districts, EMS districts, etc. Some towns have five different fire departments in them - each an autonomous body capable of levying its own taxes. That's absurd!

I look at the examples in the South and West and realize how backwards we are. They have true SYSTEMS in other parts of the world. We have little fiedoms where more is based upon what we "want" than what we "need" and we don't care what's going on around us, we're doing it OUR way.

There are definitely some benefits to regionalized services/systems and we could certainly benefit from many of them.

Good post - hopefully the discussion will keep going!

Chris,

We have it even different yet----You mention one Town with three Fire Districts in it? Well Croton Falls Fire District covers all of North Salem and small parts of Southeast and Carmel Brewster, Carmel and Mahopac Fire Districts. Yup that's three districts not even in Town Two in the Town of Carmel amd one in Southeast.

We work well with our neighbors so the whole concept works out great foe us.

[x635 4,066]

I have a question concerning this County Fire Department I keep reading about. How do you propose to staff this? Are we thinking Career, Combo? As high as property taxes in Westchester County are now, where would the additional funding come from?? This is STRICTLY a question based on economics, and in NO WAY intended to incite any conflict whatsoever. It's just that the cost of staffing could be astronomical,

What I envisioned was a combination department.

As for the economics, quite the contrary to your thoughts. The amount saved through elimination of duplication of resources, consolidating purchasing services, and other methods will actually SAVE taxpayers money.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

When I was down in SC and Savannagh, GA on Vaca a couple of years back, I looked into the EMS systems. SC was an AWESOME COUNTY WIDE system. GA was off the hook. My buddy and I stopped in to look into their flight program and the Director of Operations gave me an interview right then. He told me that I would almost definitely be a flight medic down there with my RESUME from NY. Too bad the pay was so low. I know that the cost of living is cheap but that was a crazy salary.

I always wished that their was COUNTY WIDE PD like they do in NASSAU AND SUFFOLK. Keep some of the small town DEPT's and let us all have the opportunity to travel this great COUNTY. Would be nice. I agree that it can never happen because of all the Politicians and bosses on some of these jobs would not want to give up their positions.

[27east 19]

I always wished that their was COUNTY WIDE PD like they do in NASSAU AND SUFFOLK. Keep some of the small town DEPT's and let us all have the opportunity to travel this great COUNTY. Would be nice. I agree that it can never happen because of all the Politicians and bosses on some of these jobs would not want to give up their positions.

Actually, Nassau and Suffolk both have police districts, and the residents in the district pay a tax for it. Suffolk County PD only covers the 5 west towns. The 5 East End towns did not elect to join the district.

[Oswegowind 17]

The HOME RULE is bull! Too many chiefs not enough indians...each individual hamlet/village/town/city does not need to have 3 chiefs...mergers would save tax payers money...Sorry if I piss you off but I pay taxes and I do have a say! I mean come on let's get real...time for change, it is 2007 ya know! Everywhere I go I see Countywide services that work, like in Orange Cnty Florida, or New Hanover Cnty NC and there are so many more. In each of these areas it is combination of volunteer and career staff that work together and do a great job! Centralizing 911 is also a great idea...it would reduce delays in mutual aid because the persons handling the event would know what they need to know and be able to anticipate the next steps!

IMO Westchester County 911 centralized system including a separate PSAP for Yonkers, New Rochelle/Mt. Vernon/The Pelhams, and White Plains...a total of 4 answering/communications points...saving taxpayers millions!

[DOC22 1]

What I envisioned was a combination department.

As for the economics, quite the contrary to your thoughts. The amount saved through elimination of duplication of resources, consolidating purchasing services, and other methods will actually SAVE taxpayers money.

HAHA, Seth You might be right in some areas, but I guess you've enver seen our Politicians at work LOL

[jloftus 28]

I attended some of the Westchester 2000 meetings and after carefull thought all I could think of is the fighting over who's gonna be the big Chief.

It seemed to me that no city in the end would be willing to go all the way with it. And Yonkers was there ONLY to help so they werent going with the program so I knew this is not going to fly.

Sad but true the FD is always gonna be a red-headed step child.

Were still using a Mutual Aid system set up in the 40's , most cant communicate. And we dont even drill together, but yet ask for instant help on a constant bases.

[AFS1970 504]

Not being from Westchester, I don't think it is so much the Home Rule that is the problem, but like in so many other issues, the personalities and egos (both individual and community) that are involved. A county wide oversight or merger isn't entirely a bad idea but everyone would need to be careful that it wasn't just a power grab in the other direction. That's probably the biggest fear of all and what drives the resistance. One thing I can't understand is why any community would be exempt or allowed to opt out of a county wide system, Including the Bigger Cities would seem to be of more benefit to the larger system than not.

[Guest partyrock]

OK, after much thought I've determined that this whole "Home Rule" issue that people have in their head that keeps people from working together in this county is a bunch of bull.

I may be an idiot here, but here are some specific examples:

1. County Hazmat Team, County Technical Rescue Team, County Training Facility, County Dispatch, County Police, County etc. If we can have all these service provided by the county, how come their can't be a County FD and EMS that can override local jurisdictions where needed? Doesn't County law superceede local law?

2. Fire Districts covering multiple towns. If so, how come we can't create "Mutual Aid Districts" to combine resources?

3. Technically, FDNY is a county fire department, in fact, a multiple county fire department.

4. PSAPs. If Westchester County is in charge of administering the 911 system, they can mandate that all calls come through a central resource, excluding the large cities. How does Dutchess do it?

Just some thoughts. I personally feel the "home rule" excuse is a lame excuse not to work together, and a huge copout. There's many ways we can work together to improve response times and manpower, save money, and work more efficiently. All it takes is some progressive leadership.

How much money could we save that could be better spent elsewhere by eliminating duplication of resources?

What interferes with this? Politicians and Egos. How can we change it? Speak up, and take some strong actions- like electing progressive leadership, on both the administrative and line side that aren't afraid to change things for the better. Write your local politicians about the problems, and the solutions. Band together with other members and departments to lobby for change.

The water is still, and it's time to make some waves. People's lives are at stake.

1. All of these county services you mention are called in at the discretion of the home agency. They don't just go ridding into a town and take over. Home rule means the town gets to choose who provides the service. If the county made a nice enough offer or had some leverage (ie: Federal Highway money and legal drinking age) then maybe something could be done.

2. It absolutely can happen, but this isn't hindered by home rule. This doesn't happen because everyone has an ego.

3. Technically speaking FDNY is a municipal fire department. That municipality encompasses 5 different counties. That makes FDNY a single municipality fire department that covers multiple counties. In Westchester the cities make up the county, but in NYC the counties make up the city.

4. I don't know much about PSAP's, but from what I was told a while back when the state created the 911 system they left it up to the individual municipalities to decide...more home rule for ya. If thats true Westchester can not tell them how to do it. They can withhold county money or services until the towns do what they want, but they can't order the towns to do anything.

Home rule is not an excuse, its a reality of NYS politics. People do not like giving up control. You really want to do something about it and make a real difference, then run for office. You can complain to who ever you want about it, write your local pols, and you can post on here about it till your blue in the face but no one cares because it hasn't cost them anything yet. I'll be honest, I agree with them. There are too many other things I'm going to worry about. You have to pick your battles and emergency services in this county right here and right now are good enough. If someone took the initiative to step up and actually get some changes rolling than I like most people would be right behind them.

I don't know if its funny or sad, but a county based FD that also handled EMS would could potentially be very cost effective. The initial cost would be more than offset by consolidation or facilities and equipment. Paid ff's where necessary and volunteers where available and the increase to tax payers is something in the neighborhood or 3% to 5% before factoring in savings in local taxes.

Edited July 6, 2007 by partyrock

[ex-commish 490]

I attended some of the Westchester 2000 meetings and after carefull thought all I could think of is the fighting over who's gonna be the big Chief.

It seemed to me that no city in the end would be willing to go all the way with it. And Yonkers was there ONLY to help so they werent going with the program so I knew this is not going to fly.

Sad but true the FD is always gonna be a red-headed step child.

Were still using a Mutual Aid system set up in the 40's , most cant communicate. And we dont even drill together, but yet ask for instant help on a constant bases.

This is so true. Chiefs both police and fire, unions, commisioners, etc were concerned with "who will be in charge". There was also concerns about agencies getting to big they would be accesible to the citizens.

I do agree mergers would be cost effective but we will see snow in July before that happens.

[firefighter36 52]

x635, I agree that the home rule law in NY is not conducive to effective fire service in NY. Having been to Albany to speak with politicians, I can say that they are largely unaware of the real concern of the situation: Public Safety. They look at it from a dollars and cents standpoint, and are not always aware of the big picture we see when we go to work everyday. I hate to say it, but they are largely influenced by FASNY and their Agenda. Not to offend the volunteer brothers and sisters, but FASNY pushes an agenda of "Volunteerism Saves Tax Dollars." While that cannot be debated, staffing (career or volunteer) is determined

by several factors, such as call volume, hazards in the area, and others too numerous to list. Looking at Public Safety in a sense of "What Will Happen" instead of "What May Happen" for the sake of Dollars and Cents is irresponsible. County-wide departments in the South and out West set a great example of what can be accomplished in a combination department with consolidated services. Career and Volunteer firefighters work together, and (hopefully) either side doesn't have a lobbying arm dedicated to reducing or eliminating the other.

North of NYC, each couty collectively has more fire apparatus than FDNY. Granted, we have departments spread out over much larger areas than NYC, it is mind boggling to see what some departments place in service. For example, we have more heavy rescue vehicles in Dutchess than NYC. While we have all of these Rescue trucks, it is a waiting game to get any kind of marine rescue or firefighting assistance on the Hudson.

It is also rather unnerving to see that some people's fire taxes for a 100% volunteer department are on par with those levied by combo/ career departments. Obviously, it is easier for the general public to complain about taxes if there are career employees, becauase a majority of any fire district's budget goes to pay salary and benefits (if they have full-time employees.) Residents in 100% volunteer fire districts that pay taxes on par with career departments should absolutely question the fiscal responsibility of of their politicians. On the other hand, policitians should also approach the services in a more serious manner for consolidation, for reasons which BFD182 Hit upon.

BFD182, I hate to change this topic, but not being familiar with Stamford, could we infer that the various districts will benefit from merging with SFRA and a larger dept. will prove to be a long term benefit to taxpayers? Stamford's smaller districts doing their own thing all these years is very simlar to home rule, only on a much smaller scale, of course.

Everyone else, can we see what is currently happening in Stamford as a smaller test of the risk/problems/benefits of consolidation on a larger level in the future?

On the lighter side, there is a "Trash Collection District" on Long Island somewhere that charge rather high rates for garbage pickup.

[AFS1970 504]

Not being able to see the future I can't be sure what will happen locally, I am sure that there will be both positives and negatives over all as this all plays out. Our situation is only similar to Home Rule in the Fire Service as there is one municipality which runs Public Works, Police, ect. 1 Ambulance Provider. There are 6 Fire Departments, largely due to the way Stamford was settled. Interestingly enough I have heard a story that there was talk years ago of the City helping to organize another Volunteer Company in a neighborhood but that there was not the community interest. Way back when neighboring Darien was part of Stamford. If history hadn't happened the way it did, we might have 10 departments in one city.

[dools16 1]

I attended some of the Westchester 2000 meetings and after carefull thought all I could think of is the fighting over who's gonna be the big Chief.

It seemed to me that no city in the end would be willing to go all the way with it. And Yonkers was there ONLY to help so they werent going with the program so I knew this is not going to fly.

Sad but true the FD is always gonna be a red-headed step child.

Were still using a Mutual Aid system set up in the 40's , most cant communicate. And we dont even drill together, but yet ask for instant help on a constant bases.

You are absolutely correct. Who will be the chief, what about deputies captains, etc. What happens with the union contracts? Will the residents accept a one engine house when they are used to 2 and 1 responding. There are many questions and not many answers given by the big shots involved.

[Guest]

Here in NJ in Hudson Co. 5 towns/citys merged to make the North Hudson Fire / Rescue Department. From what I have heard it was not so good when it first started

The biggest hurdle was seniority and the contracts....as time has moved on, the guys ended up with the better of the contracts....both the ff's and the officers. 4 of the 5 chiefs either retired or filled deputy position.

.... was there ONLY to help so they weren't going with the program so I knew this is not going to fly.

The big career dept in my county tried this in terms of hazmat response. We have two hazmat teams...one in the city and one in a combo dept. the combo dept team serves as the county team. Since the city team refused to respond on mutual aid assignments outside the city, their ability to get grant money/federal funding/etc. was cut off. There participation in events outside the city changed greatly as they are now the secondary response team for the county if the primary team is involved in another incident. It was a case of the tail trying to wag the dog...with the city being the tail.

If the county worked on getting it's plan together, the needs of the many will outweigh the needs of the few. The tail shouldn't wag the dog.

[Guest EFFP411]

I don't know about westchester, but dutchess has a pretty good handle on the 911 system. we've had some major happenings, and though it may get a little hecktic, they do a damn good job of knowing what is where, spreading the pull of resources, as not to strip an area of manpower and rigs. they even assigned city of poughkeepsie a county department number, 57 as a matter of fact, and can dispatch them for mutual aid, etc, instead of having to contact them through the city 911. There are a few bugs that need to be worked out, the biggest one is getting chiefs of neighboring depts to play nice, and not pass over valuable resources that can be a big help, just because they dont get along. The paid/volunteer business is usually not a real big deal either, the career depts will call for help from us just as fast as we will call for them. There may be fighting inside their own houses or whatever, but we all are here to do the same thing. And at this moment in time, the volunteer districts severely outnumber the paid. Something like 30vol. to 5 combo/paid. oh well, thats just my 2 cents.

I trust my county, do you trust yours???

Edited July 16, 2007 by EFFP411

[snkbitn 2]

they even assigned city of poughkeepsie a county department number, 57 as a matter of fact, and can dispatch them for mutual aid, etc, instead of having to contact them through the city 911.

Just to be clear, the County assigned the department number for the City of Poughkeepsie because they respond mutual aid in the County. If any resource is needed from the City of Poughkeepsie, all requests go through City 911. The County does not dispatch them directly. They are capable of this only because they are City 911's back up.

[Guest EFFP411]

Just to be clear, the County assigned the department number for the City of Poughkeepsie because they respond mutual aid in the County. If any resource is needed from the City of Poughkeepsie, all requests go through City 911. The County does not dispatch them directly. They are capable of this only because they are City 911's back up.

the only reason i say that, is because I have heard county 911 dispatch tones i had never heard before, and i listened closely, it was for city of poughkeepsie 57-12(engine 2) to go mutual aid to fairview. and it was on 453.9000, just in case you were going to tell me it was the wrong frequency i was listening to.

[Goose 188]

Could have been part of an additional request from County dispatched departments. Maybe they just threw all the tones in together. Regardless, SNK is 110% correct that all requests for City fire go through City 911.

[fire2141 33]

Not to incite a riot here, but from what I've seen, this Westchester County couldn't arrange a two car funeral. It's inept due to politics and nepotism. Would you really want Westchester County running your local fire department. It works in other states because that is the only way they've known how to do it and have been doing it for years that way. As and example, the county has been dispatching most of the departments in the county and the radio frequency issue is still an issue and where it has been fixed took several years to do so. I'll will however say that Westchester County has some of the best dispatchers I've ever seen and they got much of their experience multi-tasking an antiquated radio system. I mean no diservice to any of the other county workers, its the buracracy and politics I'm eluding to here.

[x129K 1,393]

the only reason i say that, is because I have heard county 911 dispatch tones i had never heard before, and i listened closely, it was for city of poughkeepsie 57-12(engine 2) to go mutual aid to fairview. and it was on 453.9000, just in case you were going to tell me it was the wrong frequency i was listening to.

You HEAR it on DC911 because they do drop City tones and ANNOUNCE it countywide.....

Any DISPATCHING is done via City 911.........

Once dispatched, they are advised to switch over to DC911 channels......

Edited July 16, 2007 by Ole129K

[ny10570 745]

I don't know about westchester, but dutchess has a pretty good handle on the 911 system. we've had some major happenings, and though it may get a little hecktic, they do a damn good job of knowing what is where, spreading the pull of resources, as not to strip an area of manpower and rigs. they even assigned city of poughkeepsie a county department number, 57 as a matter of fact, and can dispatch them for mutual aid, etc, instead of having to contact them through the city 911. There are a few bugs that need to be worked out, the biggest one is getting chiefs of neighboring depts to play nice, and not pass over valuable resources that can be a big help, just because they dont get along. The paid/volunteer business is usually not a real big deal either, the career depts will call for help from us just as fast as we will call for them. There may be fighting inside their own houses or whatever, but we all are here to do the same thing. And at this moment in time, the volunteer districts severely outnumber the paid. Something like 30vol. to 5 combo/paid. oh well, thats just my 2 cents.

I trust my county, do you trust yours???

Westchester's problem isn't mutual aid. For the most part depts turn out as they're suppose to and in a timely manner for their neighbors. There are some issues with depts picking and choosing, but nothing severe enough to pose significant risk to civilians from what I've seen. The biggest issue with Westchester is the duplication of services and inefficiency of the current community based system.

I think most of the bureaucracy and inefficiency are all a result of the restrictions the county has over what they can control. So much time and effort has to be dedicated to placating all the communities involved. I would love to see a centrally organized combination FD come to Westchester. I know its a pipe dream, but hopefully something will at the very least in the planning stage as more communities are forced to switch to paid EMS and EMS can remain municipal instead of being farmed out to the corporations.

[Guest EFFP411]

we have some duplication issues, but they can easily be justified by the distance and vast sizes of some departments coverage areas. sometimes it gets crazy up here, with a number of districts with multiple calls in each area. It helps alot to have alot of suff, espceially when the s*** hits the fan. like, for example, East Fishkill has its own cold water rescue team, ice rescue, rope rescue, a boat, etc. our district is 59.4 square miles, and the population is increasing by the day. We also have our own fire investigation division, and a training center, that includes a 4 story burn building, burn pad, mask confidence trailer, and will soon have a flashover simulator, propane tank simulator, and a multi- angle roof setup. Which we do extend the use of to numerous depatrments around the county, and other neighboring countys as well. Was it absolutely nesscessary, no, but with over 500 members, its nice to have our own stuff so we dont have to sit on the county waiting list to train. As for the picking and choosing, i think its crap. we are having a similar issue with rombout now. There are certain members that would rather die than call us for help, even though we're "right next door". As for "county" ems, it might be a good idea up here, considering some departments ambulances haven't seen the light of day in months, and collect dust. Though it will never happen, its still a thought

Edited July 17, 2007 by EFFP411