Charleston and the truss

[Stepjam 118]

I moved this topic.

I don't mean to sound like a Monday morning Quarterback or an armchair critic, but its mass tragedies like the Charleston fire (and Worcester, MA, 23rd Street, the Hotel Vendome, the Brooklyn Waldbaum's, and many others) that really get my mind spinning about a few things.

I understand that the Firefighters successfully extracted some employees from the Charleston fire building, so I'm wondering if the structure was fully evacuated (aside from firefighters) at the time of the collapse. Was their initial search finished? Were they looking for more trapped occupants? More to the point, if the search was finished and all occupants were evacuated, was Command aware of that fact?

If Command knew that there were no trapped occupants, why would the preservation of property be worth risking a man's life? What would be the Chief's prerogative in this kind of situation? Is he boxed in by protocol and SOP? Why would he want to carry out an aggressive interior attack in a known high risk (truss construction) and empty structure, rather than surround and drown? I understand why it's desireable to locate the seat of the fire secondary to a life search, but the media reports suggest that this situation deteriorated very rapidly.

What were the exposures, and what was the danger to those structures or occupants, if any?

At Worcester, those Firefighters who were lost were looking for people whom they assumed were inside. At 23rd street, they were completely unaware of what was right under their feet. Duty to life in one situation, totally unknown circumstances in the other.

But at Waldbaum's, and now this retail store, they were in (or on top of) a large and presumably evacuated structure that was probably built of lightweight truss construction.

I don't mean to offend or insult anyone. I am certainly no expert on the subject, and I don't want to second guess anyone either, but this is nagging me. Perhaps others might share their expertise and insight on this type of situation? I just think that these are questions that need to be asked, and I'm sure they always are as the situation dictates.

I pray for these men and their families....those at home and on the job.

Edited June 20, 2007 by Stepjam

[Guest]

In my opinion, this topic is way too early. There are a thousand questions to be asked but the immediate thing is the grieving. Lets take care of our brothers and sisters and the families of the brothers who have past. After that we'll have the story of what happened and transpired and then we can ask. Until then, lets keep our minds focused on the immediate need of helping those families and the department.

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't think the topic is too early. Even as we speak there may be an FD responding to a similar structure for a fire and they would undoubtedly like to know what caused the tragedy in Charleston.

Stepjam is not implying that we're done grieving or that it is more important to reconstruct the events to avoid a repeat tragedy. To separate the two issues, he created a new topic for this discussion.

I think we can all grieve and take steps to reduce the likelihood that this happens again.

It's always tough to learn from fatal mistakes or situations like this but unfortunately it is a reality in our business.

[x635 4,066]

I'm sorry to say, but if we do not learn from this, then their deaths were in vein. There's no better way to honor them then pass along their heroism and learn from it.

[ajsbear 11]

I don't think the topic is too early.  Even as we speak there may be an FD responding to a similar structure for a fire and they would undoubtedly like to know what caused the tragedy in Charleston.

Stepjam is not implying that we're done grieving or that it is more important to reconstruct the events to avoid a repeat tragedy.  To separate the two issues, he created a new topic for this discussion. 

I think we can all grieve and take steps to reduce the likelihood that this happens again. 

It's always tough to learn from fatal mistakes or situations like this but unfortunately it is a reality in our business.

←

Chris I think you're 100% correct. Every previous fire we can learn from will always help us. We can all continue to grive but what if you respond tonight to a similar fire? Will you remember everything from this fatal fire? We need to talk about it. Part of the griving process is to talk about it. Yes its a great tragedy. Yes its tough on all of us to lose brothers like this. As rough as it sounds life goes on. We all have to live with this but use it to learn. As our good friend ALS stated "Risk vs Gain." Learn from it and live with it.

[mfc2257 464]

The Fire Service as a whole (with no bickering over whether or not your city or rural, union or not, volunteer or not) needs to come together with OSHA, NFPA, ISO, and any other agency who can act as an advocate and begin to change the way that building construction is looked at.

We've outlawed drinking & driving, smoking in bars, use of certain pesticides.... We've got setback requirements that say I can't build a pool house within 15ft of my property line or have a fence that's too high, and I have to put Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel in my pickup truck..... BUT

WE STILL ALLOW LIGHT WEIGHT TRUSS CONSTRUCTION....

The lives of these Firemen and any others that have been lost to the failure of lightweight construction were the direct result of cost savings to developers....

The way I feel about it, our country has too many laws and the government controls every move we make so lets just add one more.... If you want to build a LWC building, you may save money on construction costs, but you should be require to keep insurance reserves to cover tragedies like this and pay higher premiums for fire insurance. In addition the building should be required to have been preplanned with the local FD and county dispatch (at the cost of the developer) for how a major situation should be handled. AND finally, all LWC structures should be labeled as such so that if all occupants are out upon arrival OR once all occupants have been removed, that the fire attack take a semi defensive route where no FF's are allowed more than a few feet into the structure with 2.5in lines or a deluge set.

Make the people who want to use these buildings pay for the safety of those who all too often lose their lives because of the cost savings to the developer/owner

Edited June 20, 2007 by mfc2257

[Guest pentax02839]

The Fire Service as a whole (with no bickering over whether or not your city or rural, union or not, volunteer or not) needs to come together with OSHA, NFPA, ISO, and any other agency who can act as an advocate and begin to change the way that building construction is looked at.

also another thing i think needs to be looked at are retrofitting spinklers into older building.also another item here which i feel is related,it is about code complance.very strict enforcment of it.there lot of examples of buildings that did not meet code. remember "united we stand divided we fall" by working together we can find soultions to this problems.

[RWC130 594]

Yes, we should learn from this and discuss this. Absolutely!

What went wrong? What can we do to prevent this?

Training, Incident Command, Fire Ops, Tactics, Rescue, Etc...

A lot of stuff BUT.......

LET THE FIREFIGHTERS BE LAID TO REST FIRST!!!!!!!!

Everyone needs to heal.

Give our Brothers that RESPECT, Please!

[LCFD968 10]

I don't think we are disrespecting anyone if we discuss this. I want to learn about this tragedy just like everyone else but I don't think we have all the facts to discuss what happened. Yes we know the Trusses failed, yes we heard they were looking for another victim but we don't know anything else everything talked about at this point is going to be speculation.

[smwells 7]

First let me say I am not a Fire Fighter.

I remember reading someplace probably here, that these types of structures are supposed to have signs or placards indicating the use of Light Truss construction, so the arriving emergency services adjusts thier attack into or onto the structure..

I think it came as a result of the Walbaums fire in Brooklyn.

May those lost, rest in peace...

[TCD0415 26]

An Awful Awful thing has happened in the Fire Service here.

I believe that nobody in this forum in any way shape or form is looking to disrespect any of our brothers that were killed. In fact I believe that everyone IS grieving in their own way.

The fact of the matter is that this could happen again today. In my town, In your town, In your brothers town. We need to discuss this NOW, and tomorrow, and the next day too. If discussions like this that are taking place right now, around the country and probably around the world, make us think a second or 2 longer and possibly make a different move, then its all worth it.

I believe that all 9 of our fallen brothers are looking down on us at this very minute, proud that we are discussing it and hopefully looking to avoid another tragredy.

Dont let their deaths be in vain. Talk about it, maybe someone reading will learn something and use it tonight.............

[firemoose827 324]

The Fire Service as a whole (with no bickering over whether or not your city or rural, union or not, volunteer or not) needs to come together with OSHA, NFPA, ISO, and any other agency who can act as an advocate and begin to change the way that building construction is looked at.

We've outlawed drinking & driving, smoking in bars, use of certain pesticides.... We've got setback requirements that say I can't build a pool house within 15ft of my property line or have a fence that's too high, and I have to put Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel in my pickup truck..... BUT

WE STILL ALLOW LIGHT WEIGHT TRUSS CONSTRUCTION....

The lives of these Firemen and any others that have been lost to the failure of lightweight construction were the direct result of cost savings to developers....

The way I feel about it, our country has too many laws and the government controls every move we make so lets just add one more.... If you want to build a LWC building, you may save money on construction costs, but you should be require to keep insurance reserves to cover tragedies like this and pay higher premiums for fire insurance.  In addition the building should be required to have been preplanned with the local FD and county dispatch (at the cost of the developer) for how a major situation should be handled.  AND finally, all LWC structures should be labeled as such so that if all occupants are out upon arrival OR once all occupants have been removed, that the fire attack take a semi defensive route where no FF's are allowed more than a few feet into the structure with 2.5in lines or a deluge set.

Make the people who want to use these buildings pay for the safety of those who all too often lose their lives because of the cost savings to the developer/owner

←

Couldnt have said it better. I work in a codes office and talk with the codes officer often about construction and the fire service. He asks me about it all the time and its frustrating. I try as diplomatically as I can to explain it to him that lightweight-anything is DANGEROUS to the fire service.

This discussion is NEEDED in order to honor the sacrifice made by our brothers and prevent it from happening again.

Remember them, honor them, remember what happened and apply it on the job.

God bless the fallen and the entire City of Charleston NC fire dept.

Edited June 20, 2007 by Jonesy368

[Oswegowind 17]

Yes, we should learn from this and discuss this. Absolutely!

What went wrong? What can we do to prevent this?

Training, Incident Command, Fire Ops, Tactics, Rescue, Etc...

A lot of stuff BUT.......

LET THE FIREFIGHTERS BE LAID TO REST FIRST!!!!!!!!

Everyone needs to heal.

Give our Brothers that RESPECT, Please!

←

Rob, I disagree with your statement...laying to rest is important, no one here is saying that they were wrong in the way this situation was handled, and I am sure that any firefighter who has died in the line of duty would want us to review the "W's" (who, what, why...) so that no other firefighter has to experience the same thing. As we all know, HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF! Let us learn from this incident so that we (even just our small online community) may not have to suffer this tragedy ourself! It also sounds as though there was an unusual situation, the tornado of flames is something I am interested in finding out about how this occurred. Also, were these members "inside" or working near the premise when the collapse occurred? Was FAST/RIT in place and once the situation happenned what type of response procedure was in place, meaning additional resources to assist in search and rescue? And if you are really good, what would you do as IC and what are your departmental procedures, cause this condition would overwhelm the on scene FAST/RIT...is there a standing order for additional FASTeams and don't forget the need for more than just the usual 1 ambulance stand by!

[robert benz 344]

everyone is jumping on the truss roof theory, and why were they in there, truss roofs arent dangerous until the fire attacks the structure, which it finally did. My bigger concern is this fire came in as an outside or rubbish fire. if that is true then at some point this fire extended into the structure and went undected. The civilian who was trapped and later rescued stated he was in an area off the warehouse and that when he opened the door he found a large amount of fire in the warehouse and thats when he called 911. This what I believe we have to learn from, 3 basics from firefighter one, LOCATE , CONFINE , EXTINGUISH. If we dont locate it the rest cant get done. Many many firefighters over the years have been killed and injuried due to trouble locating the seat of the fire. A chief stated there were drop ceilings in the showroom area, was there fire above their heads attacking the structure as they entered??? how do we find out, near wherever your entry point is, if you have drop ceiling tiles you have to pop some up, it is a wide open area (plenum) above your head, and if the fire is up there attacking the roof structure or the drop ceiling attachments, you have to know that before you get to far into the building.

Brett Tarver from PFD died from an outside rubbish fire that got into the rear of a supermarket. how long does it take to regroup and now stretch lines to the front of a store and all the way back to the rear??. all the while the fire is growing.

Sorry for any rant but it doesnt seem the "truss roof" was the initial problem, but locating where this fire was or had extended to was.

Another reason why we need "enough" firefighters on the scene right away.

[FFD941 20]

First let me say I am not a Fire Fighter.

I remember reading someplace probably here, that these types of structures are supposed to have signs or placards indicating the use of Light Truss construction, so the arriving emergency services adjusts thier attack into or onto the structure..

I think it came as a result of the Walbaums fire in Brooklyn.

May those lost, rest in peace...

←

This is correct however this has only become Law (in NYS) Effective December 29, 2004 to new construction

Here is a link to the New York State Department of State Division of Code Enforcement and Administration

Truss ID

Edited June 22, 2007 by FFD941

[Remember585 815]

If I remember correctly, I think it was Vincent Dunn who said you shouldn't enter a fire involving a truss building, but if it is a fire within the structure, use your best judgement. And, if I recall correctly, he also said if attacking a fire within a structure of truss construction to operate at least 3-5 trusses back.

Anyone else hear this or read this somewhere? I took notes in the class but can't find the damn things.

Reading the smoke, pre-planning, size-up, knowing the structure and TRAINING will hopefully help us keep ourselves safe.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I also remember most of what you posted also 585, at least to that effect.

The time to discuss is here and now. Do you think investigators are giving much time for the "healing" process, if there every will be such a total thing?

Remember and Bobby stated it great...locate, confine, extinguish. All 3 involve knowledge, respect and understanding of fire behavior and building construction factors. Know what your dealing with, know how it may react and know where the fire is, where it is or might be going and go from there.

There are still many of us dying in truss construction. It will not be going away anytime soon. You must also understand that its not just about cheap construction, lightweight construction materials also are engineeringly very solid construction materials that allow much longer spans and material that has little to no warp. The problem only is when it gets exposed to fire.

Not to start any additional back and forth here and let me clarify that if there is one thing that I think should be outright gotten rid of is the gusset plate...but what makes some of you feel that we are so special? To ask that lightweight construction be banned? Do we not utilize tactics and update, change and alter them often? This is a 2 way street.