Diversity In Your Department

[Stepjam 118]

Okay, Seth.

All due respect again, but I hear twinges of the old Liberal thought process that "if you disagree with open-minded, highly enlightened me, then you're just wrong." Therefore, that makes me a cretin. Uneducated. Unintelligent. Too old to see reality. Living in the past. The enemy of the progressive movement. Believe me, I know this is NOT what you mean, but I have heard overtones of it many, many times from Libtards that I have met and dealt with professionally. You may know the type: Born and raised in Scarsdale or Pound Ridge (nothing against those villages), sixteen years of private and/or Ivy league schools, right on to Graduate school. Not a blue collar dirt bag who struggled through nine years of night school at a State college (eeeew!!) like me. I have had moments with many other morons of this calibre during the endless Indian Point debates.

You're right. I volunteer because I don't give a crap about helping others. I roll out of bed at 3:00am when my pager goes off, just because I get some kind of sick thrill from it, as many mid-aged white men do. I can't understand these younger guys, who do it purely out of altruism and love for their fellow man, especially those who are disadvantaged. I think they're just crazy.

I'll go back to may cave and stare at my Ronald Reagan poster. Now, where is my old RNC membership card?

Edited June 18, 2007 by Stepjam

[210 91]

Seth,

With all due respect, you posed a question/discucssion. I don't think you got the replies or support you wanted or thought you might get and now you appear to be pissed. Sorry, but I thought this board was all about sharing different ideas and opinions. I'm not trying to start anything or give you a hard time. You do a great job with this site and i appreciate it.

John

Edited June 18, 2007 by 210

[x635 4,066]

Seth,

With all due respect, you posed a question/discucssion. I don't think you got the  replies or support you wanted or thought you might get and now you appear to be pissed.  Sorry, but I thought this board was all about sharing different ideas and opinions. I'm not trying to start anything or give you a hard time. You do a great job with this site and i appreciate it.

John

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Not pissed at all. Glad to have a discussion, I really don't take anything personally just am passionate about my beliefs and everything that I do. I like to hear what others have to say in response, as I do have an open mind to things which is why I love forums. I enjoy helping people, and I do think my initial message got misconstrued for reasons I cannot explain here, and understanbdly so. Thanks for the compliment about the site, it means a lot.

[Guest]

Seth,

I agree that the site it def. a great way to get some opinions out there, and thats all this topic is doing. Like John said, you are not getting the responses and/or support you hoped for and it seems like it bugs you. I dont feel at all that people are misunderstanding what you are saying. I think they understand EXACTLY what you are saying, and that is why they are saying what they are saying. I told you before, that I can kinda see why you feel the way you do, but I cannot agree at all with you, because there's more to it. You say that it disgusts you to see how people dont care in the world. Well, it disgusts me to see how people BLINDLY care for some, while ignore the rest. I've seen it first hand myself, despite how young I am (I owe that to the military and being raised in a "disadvantaged" home). What makes them so disadvantaged anyways? That their moms and dads cant speak English and dont want to work, and rather live on welfare? That they went to public schools (so did I, in fact, in regards to Stepjam's comments....I go to a CUNY, EWWWWW!!!! haha). I was raised in a very old school fashion from my parents. And I was born in a pretty s*** apartment in the city. Maybe thats why I see the things the way I do. I'm a firm beleiver in that you get what you put in. Sure, its nice to make contacts along the way, but guess what, I MADE THOSE CONTACTS, with effort! Life isnt a picnic, as you know. You said you're whole life you wanted to be a fireman, so ask yourself, if they werent at your high school that day, are you really going to tell me that you werent going to go for it? Steps today are always being taken to give these minorities an upper hand, especially the blacks. Look at the Vulcan Decree. Look at FDNY's efforts this past year!!! Look at the money they put down! NO ONE can ever tell me, that efforts arent being made, that recruitment sucks (RECRUIT YOURSELF!!!!) And what pisses me off is that THEY still b**** and moan that nothing is being done!!!! For what? Just so they can manipulate the system even more to have it there way! Let me ask this now...what about all the white males who scored even lower or just as bad as these minorities? Do they get fair treatment or a hug? What about all the private schools in the city that didnt have recruitment posters? What about those kids whose parents are lawyers, not fireman/police? Do they get a fair treatment or special attention? Nope! In the end, its just a scam.

[Stepjam 118]

I would also like to add that I appreciate everything Seth does for us by running this site, and by giving us an intelligent, mature sounding board here on the forums. This was a brisk discussion, and proves how adults can have a constructive conversation and remain civil, even if we disagree. I enjoyed and respected every post.

Be safe!

Edited June 18, 2007 by Stepjam

[Guest]

I would also like to add that I appreciate everything Seth does for us by running this site, and by giving us an intelligent, mature sounding board here on the forums. This was a brisk discussion, and proves how adults can have a constructive conversation and remain civil, even if we disagree. I enjoyed and respected every post.

Be safe!

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Amen to that!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I am actually surprised that they kept this topic going for so long. It seems if nobody agrees with the administrators they get rid of the topic.

I am sure most of us on here knew what we wanted to do when were growing up. I know that I watched EMERGENCY, S.W.A.T., Adam-12, Chips, and all that other BS. I just knew that I didn't want to work in an office all day. So what did I do? I gave college a chance and hated it. Got enrolled in an EMT course at WCC found out that I was good at that and kept with it till I got called to be a COP. So the only formal college education that I have is EMT/MEDIC school, WC Police Academy. But in that time I got street smarts. Too me that is the most important thing to have. You can't learn everything in life from a book or an instructor.

Take NYPD and FDNY back in the day. Most employees were IRISH AMERICAN. To this day FDNY is prob 50% IRISH. I don't know why that is but it is. You can't go out and make somebody take a job they don't want or probably won't be good at. I think it is in our blood. Some take the job because they see it as and easy career with good benefits. But those of us that really love our jobs can smell them out in a minute.

Mt Pleasant does have Police day every year for the Community to come and see out equipment along with equipment from other Dept's. We don't often advertise what kind of crime goes on in MT Pleasant so I am sure that most of the Taxpayers think we sit around and eat donuts and drink coffee all day. After leaving on that day they might get a better perspective of what we do.

Seth why don't you go to your bosses and tell them that you wish that they were more DIVERSE and have them hire some Minorities. I am sure they will go for that. How about the best candidate for the job. Who cares if you are Black, White, Yellow, etc if you are the best for the job you should get the job.

[x635 4,066]

I am actually surprised that they kept this topic going for so long. It seems if nobody agrees with the administrators they get rid of the topic.

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Quite obviously, that's a load of bull and I'm sick of hearing that rumor/lie/fabrication/misunderstanding. But hey, if you hate this forum so much or dislike the way it's run, either contact us and we'll explain the problem and try to resolve it, or you can find another forum that tolerate the BS we don't.

And, I am saying that the best candiate for the job should be hired. Where are you misconstruing that? All I am saying is that we should do more outreach and recruiting to increase diversity in our departments regardless of race, creed, religion, sexual orientation, etc. And, that departments should use their power to help improve peoples lives, especially those in their own community.

And, if you had read further on my comments, the reason why FDNY and NYPD have such an Irish heritage is because being a cop or firefighter used to be a really shitty job, low pay, bad benefits, very dangerous. At the time, in the early 1900's, the, again at the time, low class Irish immigrants that Americans hated (Irish need not apply) took the job. It's in the history books.

And, not that it has any relevance, it was PURE LUCK that you were born in the United States. You could have been born in Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, Guetamala, etc etc. We're a melting pot. We are where people come to give their families a better life. We should foster this spirit in our own communities where generations of failures have set the precedent for future generations....we have the power to stop that, even if it's just one person, one family at a time.

[Guest]

This is the sort of topic that I feel, needs to stay up and be voiced upon. Its a serious issue that is effecting the FD/PD, whether you feel for it or against it. This isnt a topic about what kind of lightbars you like, or how many parades you've gone to this year or even what your favorite scene was from "Resuce Me". Hey, in a public forum, its all good...but this is obviously something that has more precedent, and as you can tell, people feel very strongly about.

PS...what ever happened to third watch, haha!

[Bababoosky 24]

Has anyone thought that people don't want the jobs because they don't make 6 figure salaries? People also don't want to work rotating shifts, weekends, holidays, or in dangerous or highly stressful work environment.

NYPD advertises more than any department in the world, going to more job fairs, having the most commercials, websites, etc. The reason why they don't want the jobs is purely and simply a salary issue. You can barely afford to provide for yourself on $26K/yr in the academy, let alone if you are married and have a family!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Seth it wasn't bashing you or the website. If don't like what I have to say then that is your opinion. I have posted on here and my post have been deleted because you thought they were bashing or mean. RELAX.

I don't think it was luck I was born in the US. My parents were from here, their parents were from here, their parents might have been from somewhere else. How is it luck? I'm from here so of course my kids are going to be from here.

[Guest partyrock]

Has anyone thought that people don't want the jobs because they don't make 6 figure salaries?  People also don't want to work rotating shifts, weekends, holidays, or in dangerous or highly stressful work environment.

NYPD advertises more than any department in the world, going to more job fairs, having the most commercials, websites, etc.  The reason why they don't want the jobs is purely and simply a salary issue.  You can barely afford to provide for yourself on $26K/yr in the academy, let alone if you are married and have a family!

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But that explains why people of all races won't take that job. FDNY's problem is that only white people are willing to work the schedule for the low pay.

[Guest]

Thank GOD for those low class Irish immgrants. Where the hell would the fire service be without the Halligan!

[Guest]

But that explains why people of all races won't take that job.  FDNY's problem is that only white people are willing to work the schedule for the low pay.

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But thats not a problem. Thats just the way it is, because they want to sign up! Anybody can sign up as well. Its not like they turn you away. People have to stop looking at this like its some planned hidden agenda behind closed doors that mostly white apply for it. It just so happens that white males are the majority in this case. DONE!

NYPD's case is that no one wants to get shot dead in the slums of the south bronx for no pay. I dont care who wants to bash that job, I give the guys doing it all the respect in the world! If they didnt do it, who would?

[Guest]

Regardless of the DOJ, politicians and media stepping in, I still dont think that makes it a problem, and heres why. Media wants stories! Politicians want votes, and will do anything to get there name out there. (True story about a politician I worked with for a bit in the past. Guy claimed to love the FD/PD, guy claimed to love and support all aspects of it, and even wanted to get his name out there to try to remedy the lowering of the standards. Not even a month later, I see his name in the paper, supporting a convicted cop killer...hmm, thats nice! AS#Hole). And the DOJ pretty much takes any case that deals with discriminatory circumstances, cause, well, they kinda have to investigate those claims. We see these claims made all the time, and thankfully, latly they havnt been winning. The woman Capt in FDNY from BK lost, those suits made in Philly and Boston which were overturned by the white male candidates etc. I just think that there is a difference between a legite discriminatory complaint with EVIDENCE, and just people of any background complaining over a "old" story thats easy to cry.

[NYMedic37 22]

If my house is on fire or I'm sick and need an EMT / Paramedic or if I need a cop all I would care about is that the responding person is on top of his game. All this crap about diversity is just that.....crap.

Paul Aiello

[AFS1970 504]

It's not the diversity that is BS, it is the way that diversity is misused to mask various political agendas. As for trying to instill a love of the job into youth, until last year I was one of the Advisors with a local Explorer Post. Of the numerous Explorers that came and went through our post in the 10 years I was there, I only ever saw a handful move on to any Emergency Service. Oddly enough, those that became EMT's were all white, those that went on to Firefighting were mostly from poorer neighborhoods and/or from minority groups. Many of them did not remain active in the departments they joined. I will be the first to say that a big part of that was geography.

I can not understand why the fire department gets criticized for failing to recruit anyone. In the case of career departments, it is usually the HR department who is in charge of testing and establishing the list, and only then does the fire department get a list to choose from. Why don't we ever hear about how racist the HR directors are? In the case of volunteer departments, they are limited by geography. It is essential that a volunteer live in or close to the district, because of response times. So the VFD's recruit from a relatively small area. Then we get accused of not reflecting the community. In most cases I have seen, we loose more members that live far away than we do members who live close by.

I also think that a targeted recruitment plan will bring with it largely undeserved resentment of the applicants that come in. True or false, right or wrong any group like this will be labled them and the rest of the department will become us. There will be the perception that somehow things were manipulated to get them the position. I do not know the answer to this question but I do not think that any fire department can be blamed simply because their membership does not meet some politicians master demographic plan.

[towerladder2 22]

Another point that has to be made is the fact that this is a profession (either career or volunteer) that comes from the heart. This is something that is inside each and every one of us. It is not something that can be instilled or taught. That is the reason that we do it! Not for the salary, not for the acolaides, and not to be a "hero".

You can have a certain amout of recruitment and reachout to the community, but short of holding their hand and walking them through the door, what else are you looking to do for them?

I understand your points on community involvment. But like many have said in the thread, you can only do so much for a person and then it is up to them to continue on a path.

[x635 4,066]

So, what's the solution to this?

From the jist of this, I get that the majority feels like everybody is on their own, and those who want the job will come and get it.

I agree that there's a lot of unfair recruitment practice out there. I also think the NYS Testing system is obsolete and irrelevant. Also, as far as recruiting goes, the more people you recruit, the more competitive it becomes (which some are afraid of), and you end up having a better selection of canidates to choose from. Just because you dream about becoming a firefighter or volunterr as one doesn't mean that the career is neccarily for you, nor does it mean you'd naturally be good at it. In my eyes, at least, a great recruit is one that has the willingness to learn and perform the job to the best of his or her ability, and EXCEEDS the departments standards.

However, if I may ask one question. Is there a single thing, person, or event that inspired you to become a firefighter?

And, why do you think-whether you admit it or not- the fire service is the least diverse versus PD & EMS?

Finally, why do you think that so many feel that "diversity" is crap?

[RescueKujo 130]

It has always been my belief that the best person for the job should get it, regardless on ethnicity, gender, etc, etc. That said, I have seen too many people believe that due to their particular circumstances whatever they are attempting to achieve should be handed to them on the perverbial silver platter.

It goes back to military EOD school, listening to a minority spouting off that the classes are slanted to caucasians, due to all the reading required. I am tired of someone who doesn't get promoted pulled out "the card" and claiming discrimination due to whatever reason they pick. While I agree there has been discrimination in the past, I have seen a steady decline in the will of people to work for further gain. Again, they want it on a silver platter.

That's my take. as for furthering our profession among the masses, with the lack of service being felt by people anymore, I don't know. We all know, you don't make a whole lot of money doing these types of jobs, and that's what the incoming workforce wants. I'm at a loss and glad I'm not in Human Resources.

[AFS1970 504]

Why isthe fire service is the least diverse versus PD & EMS?

This is an interesting question. I think with EMS there are a few factors. First like the PD & PD of old (althought this is changing somewhat) it is a low paying and unpopular job. What lead the Irish to PD & FD is likely leading lots of minorities to EMS. The fact that as a service, EMS is relatively young, means that it doesn't have enough tradition to for too much negative traditionalism yet.

The police I think may have become more diverse as an off shoot from the military desegragating in the early 1950's. For a long time every generation had it's war and many returning veterans took civil service tests, and had veterans housing, this may have made the initial steps towards where law enforcement is now in this regard.

With both of these services every minority member is the best recruiting tool they have. Children seeing a responder who looks like them know that that job is a possibility. As they get older and start considering careers I think this is also a factor. In a way in order to attract more minorities one must already have alot of minorities. One "token poster child" on a recruitment add doesn't work nearly as well as ten guys out working in the field.

Given a test system like that, and since we rarely know each others scores, can anyone blame a firefighter from always wondering if that guy next to him really passed the test, and really is able to do the job? As openminded as we all try to be, I can't blame anyone for thinking that.

I think that all the misguided attempts at diversification have lead a great many of us to be warry of minority hires. There is and likely will be for some time the perseption that they somehow were handed the job on a silver platter. A recent test & hiring situation in my area which was well known due to media coverage featured a written test where the passing score was lowered 10 points, because the HR director said that with too high a passing score they wouldn't get the minority candidates they desired. So basically we have a guy in city management who just said publicly that minoritys can't pass a regular test, but noone called him a racist.

Edited June 20, 2007 by BFD182

[Guest]

Thank GOD for those low class Irish immgrants. Where the hell would the fire service be without the Halligan!    

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Ahh, the Halligan, the tool of tools, probably my most favorite tool on the fire ground.

At the academy, our P.T. instructor told us of a sure fire way to tell if your 'higher ups' care if you live or die.

If they want you to live, they buy Halligans.

If they don't care if you die, they buy Hooligans.