Why do we do this? (Ground Ladders)

[STAT213 332]

I recently took a ground ladders class from an FDNY guy named Ciampo. GREAT class if you can take it. One of his pet peeves, which I now notice on every fire apparatus pic is the way we rack the ground ladders on our pumps. Why do we put the roof ladder in front? Most of the time, you have to take it off, drop it on the ground and then step over it/on it to then get the extension ladder you need. Its one of those things that we do, just cause we have always done it that way. Turn the whole thing around and nest the roof ladder in the back. Makes life SO much easier, because generally, we need the extension ladder first.

Here is an example...and I am NOT picking on YFD...just the first one I found on Seth's site.

RA

Thanks to DOC22 for pointing out my mistake...fixed!!

[DOC22 1]

I see what you mean, but the ladder you are referring to is a roof ladder, note the hooks on the end. the attic ladder is the little square object in the rack above the others.

[jd783 64]

Roof ladder is on the outside on YFD rigs

[STAT213 332]

Roof ladder is on the outside on YFD rigs

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Ok. So, why is it on the outside? Is there a good reason?

p.s. Not trying to start any kind of pissing contest here at all. Just a question.

Rob

[RichC 0]

What if this particular Eng in Yonkers has a response are with many, many 2 1/2 story dwellings with a porch roof. The 15 ft hook ladder is quick and easy access to the porch roof and then the bedroom windows from there. So it may be just a function of the response area and this is what works best for this YFD Eng Co. vs the area FDNY Member Ciampo

relates to which might be a place with no porch and flat roofs. Much less use for the hook ladder there.

[TCD0415 26]

We flipped ours about 3 years back. Roof on the inside, Extention on the outside.

If you think about it, it really makes sense.

You need the Extension Ladder first to get to the roof to place the Roof Ladder.

Plus, if someone gets jammed up and you need to throw the Extention Ladder quickly, you grab it and go and dont have to mess around with taking the roof ladder off first.

[x635 4,066]

From my point of view, especially when you have no help in throwing the ladder, I always overestimate what I need, so I mostly try and use the extension ladder except in very obvious circumstances where the roof ladder will more then suffice in a non-roof application.

[Guest partyrock]

Ok.  So, why is it on the outside?  Is there a good reason? 

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Thats how it comes from the factory. Not sh!tting on anyone, but its just easier to load the larger ladder on first. Thats how the engine comes and thats how people learn to use it.

Also remember FDNY does not work from roof ladders. It may happen on some rare occasions but we are trained in horizontal ventilation and bucket work.

Edited June 4, 2007 by partyrock

[Guest]

Not only does having the roof ladder on the outside not make sense, but I'm really not a big fan either of having the ladders secured and stored above the rig on the hydraulic operated rack. Screw the extra compartment space, what happens when you desperately need it and it malfunctions with no truck co. around? Now you have to climb up into the hosebed to get them down. I say leave them on the side for easy access with the 24' on the outside of the roof. Many a porch roof you're going to need a 16'-18' roof anyway. The 14' is too short.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Stat...I talk about this in my classes often. I have seen a couple manufacturer's that have switched the order.

Another problem that often occurs with the roof ladder being on the outside is when its not needed it is often rested against the tire on the side of the truck (tripping hazard) and then on top of it usually right against the exhaust. (carbon and heat).

24' extension ladder which pretty much is the standard is not difficult to handle single firefighter and is something that should be practiced regularly within career, combo and volunteer departments with limited staffing.

Longshanks, good post. I now my hydraulic rack on the engine I work on has a manual lower in the event that happens.

While I like the safety of having the ladders enclosed in the rear when they mold the tank to fit them. The one thing I've noticed often is when they are out of sight out of mind. To me this isn't a valid reason not to consider it, but rather a leadership and/or management issue.

Edited June 4, 2007 by alsfirefighter

[SteveOFD 176]

Another one of my pet peeves. I am constantly amazed at the "well it's the way we've always done it" attitude, rather than doing it the "right" or more efficient way.

[IzzyEng4 427]

From what I was told was that the roof ladders were kept on the outside to prevent the weigh of the extension ladder from warping or bending the roof ladder. Now mind you I am talking about when all ladders were wood. So this explanation could be valid. Another as the way the old style ladder racks were made and they didn;t allow the roof ladder to be stored on the inside, though with a little fudging, it could be stored that way.

Another reason that I see is that you can grab the roof ladder behind the extension ladder without realizing it when taking them off the rack if the extension if first.

My old Essentials book only states:

"Ladders carried on pumpers are sometimes mounted so that it is necessary to remove the complete assembly of roof and extension ladders before they are separated." (hence the roof ladder first) "Unless the roof and extension ladders have individual brackets and holding devices, one ladder may fall from the apparatus when the other is removed. For safety reasons, consideration should be given to providing a separate device for each ladder."

Now with this said, having the roof ladder out first helps us grab both ladders and set them on the ground and preventing them from falling. Like I had said before, in the back seems to me to be a greater risk in accidentally grabbing the roof ladder if behind the extension improperly and causing it to fall from your hands on a side mount.

With out new pumper we built the ladder rack on edge inside the body of our truck and both ladders have separate "bays" to eliminate this problem.

I does make sens though having the extension ladder out first since that is one one we use mostly as an engine comapny, on the smae rack.