Minneapolis Firefighters Escape Caught on Video

[HFD201 0]

Two Minneapolis Firefighters Make Risky Escape from Blaze

Courtesy of KSTP-TV

Two Minneapolis firefighters are safe after diving from a second story window to escape a burning home. It happened on the 3000 block of California St. NE in Minneapolis early just after Midnight Tuesday. The Battalion Chief said the flames inside were too intense and firefighters were ordered out. No one was injured, but the home is a total loss. Firefighters were able to keep the fire from spreading to other homes. The Red Cross is helping the two families who lived in the home.

http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=48152&bw=

[ltmdepas3280 1]

OUTSTANDING...THE REASON WE TRAIN!!!!

[Guest]

OUTSTANDING...THE REASON WE TRAIN!!!!

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Well said. A Marine told me once. "Train like you fight. Fight like you train."

[Ladder44 73]

thanks god for those guys with the ladder or else it would be a long fall down

[BFD1054 1,552]

Awesome video. Even better was the quick thinking on the part of the 2 members, as well as the FF who moved the ladder into position!

That could not have been a more perfect ladder escape! As others have said, this is where your training comes into play and i'm glad they had it!

Good to hear neither was injured either, god bless em'!

[IzzyEng4 427]

WOW!

Unbelievable and thank god their training took over!

[TCD0415 26]

Is it me or did it look like the second guy out the window did not have an Air Pack on ???? I can't believe someone would have gone into that without one.

[Ladder44 73]

hey might have taken it off to bail out or maybe it got cought up on somthing...

[Guest Firediver]

Nope, it's not you. He doesn't. Must have forgot that part of training!!

[CTFF 65]

That could not have been a more perfect ladder escape!  As others have said, this is where your training comes into play and i'm glad they had it!

Good to hear neither was injured either, god bless em'!

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Actually it could have been better. They came all the way down the ladder head first, they could have made a pivot at the top of the ladder and come down feet first. I'm pretty sure guys have been killed coming down head first.

Also the window they bailed from still had the sash in it.

I do have to agree that things were done right leading to a sucessfull outcome in regards to bailing, and it was a good job by all involved.

[robert benz 344]

couple of things come to mind, fire will make you jump out of a window ladder or not. it was a far from perfect escape, let that ladder be a LOT SHORTER making it a steeper angle, instead of being too long, and they still would have come out head first, but without someway of stopping their desent, and they would have hit the ground or hopefully someone would have helped them down like the video of the Baltimore bailout. it looks like the second guy has his mask on so he most likely removed his pack at some point but not his facepiece GREAT MOVE TO HELP PREVENT SERIOUS BURNS.

I am not being to picky good move finding the window and getting out, I dont want some of our younger members trying that ladder slide there is the right way to train on how to do it, and then there is the I am coming out this window right now, ladder or no ladder, training or no training.

As was stated an instructor died doing that maneuver, when he fell off the ladder and broke his neck.

[robert benz 344]

ok now for the training session, are there any questions that should be asked about this fire video?

a video or pic captures only a small part of the whole story. I am picking on the newer members to the fire service, what do you see or what should you be asking after viewing that video.

not monday morning this job, this could be any FD at any time, just trying to get some questions asked and input from experienced members

[Guest]

Yeah Bob I got a few of questions: The first is what caused these members to bail out anyway? Was the main body of fire knocked down on the first floor prior to initiating a search above? Was there a loss of water? Was there a delay in getting the backup line into operation? What size line was the initial attack line? How did they get to the 2nd floor for VES? Interior stairs? Portable Ladder on exterior? Just a few things to think about. By no means am I Monday morning QB and am very happy to see the brothers safe and well! PS. Like you said also Bob, grab a longer ladder and you'll have an easier time descendind head first at a lower angle.

[nwpfd390 2]

it just goes to show you how important training and ladders really are

[Guest partyrock]

Rob, you're spot on. If this job happened in my first due, these are the questions we would ask.

I am a big fan of ladder escape training. Lets face it, these guys got lucky. The first ff was headed for the express to the ground if the ladder had been shorter. Yes it is dangerous, but harness up, keep that safety line in place and it can be very safe. Worst injury I've seen is a broken wrist (but thats what happens when you don't listen cause you know it all).

This should also serve as notice to you guys. Get ladders up on buildings. I know staffing is a problem, but if you're the fast team and that building doesn't look like its being help up by ladders get to work.

[robert benz 344]

couple of things come to mind,  fire will make you jump out of a window  ladder or not. it was a far from perfect escape,  let that ladder be a LOT SHORTER making it a steeper angle,  instead of being too long, and they still would have come out head first,  but without someway of stopping their desent, and they would have hit the ground or hopefully someone would have helped them down like the video of the Baltimore bailout.  it looks like the second guy has his mask on  so he most likely removed his pack at some point  but not his facepiece  GREAT MOVE TO HELP PREVENT SERIOUS BURNS.

I am not being to picky good move finding the window and getting out, I dont want some of our younger members trying that ladder slide  there is the right way to train on how to do it,  and then there is the I am coming out this window right now, ladder or no ladder, training or no training.

As was stated  an instructor died doing that maneuver, when he fell off the ladder and broke his neck.

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this just came from tom wutz chief of nystate office OFPC

"Do not use this video in any NYS sponsored Fire Training Course"

a firefighter in the state of California demonstrated the same (head first ladder slide) technique and was killed instantly when he head hit the pavement and broke his neck.

I have no doubt that someone, some place will try to do/demonstrate this technique and the potential for another tragedy is always there. Because of your effort and professionalism as instructors we have an excellent safety record in the training program. Some bumps and bruises, some out of shape students but fortunately no serious injures in the recent past.

I do not want you or I to bear the burden of being a root cause of a potential death or debilitating injury.

[Guest Firediver]

It's not so much how important the ladder was in this case but "where" the ladder was placed. A longer ladder worked out well for those guys, but a "properly" placed ladder and those guys would have ate it, Literaly!

[Guest partyrock]

a "properly" placed ladder and those guys would have ate it, Literaly!

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Huh??? I'm confused.

To the westchester instructors, do you guys teach the ladder escape as part of ff survival?

[robert benz 344]

Huh???  I'm confused.

To the westchester instructors, do you guys teach the ladder escape as part of ff survival?

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what i think he means is if the ladder was at the proper climbing angle those 2 guys would have come down so fast they would have been unable to stop or hold on. And yes we do teach the ladder bailout, always with a belay line.

[Guest Firediver]

Yes, what I meant was a ladder placed at the proper climbing angle or even close to it, those guys would not have been able to "control" their descent as well as they did. Sorry for the confusion.

[firecapt32 282]

First and formost i am glad the brothers are around to tell the story to their children and are safe.

I haved watched the video as few and have come to the conclusion that the first guys was headed out.! I dont think he gave a shi* whether there was a ladder there or not.

Second we here in New York teach a head first but with a foot locking and arm reach around so you can turn around on the ladder and come down in a safe fasion. useing the" calif" style is dangerous as we know a fire Captain broke his neck and died in a training exersice.

be safe as possible

[Guest]

I'd much rather have a longer ladder at a lower angle so I could practically walk hand over hand down the ladder than a ladder set at the usual 70-75 degree angle, where your almost assuring yourself of sustaining an injury or even death. That proper ladder placement, as well as the foot tuck and wrap aroud arm technique are all well and good in a controlled enviroment with a belay line, but when the s*** hits the fan, I can honestly say from past experience, you're not thinking of any of that. Trust Me! To be quite honest with ya, when your being singed, you don't even care at that point if a ladder is even in place. You just want out at all costs even if you got to jump thru a friggin window, which hopefully empties out onto a porch roof or fire escape. 1st fl. would be even better. Stay Safe Lads!

[Remember585 815]

My thoughts on this are like most of yours. But here is one I haven't seen mentioned.

Would any of you consider "hanging from the sill" then dropping to the ground had there been no ladder there? Unless I am missing something, it looks to be a 2nd floor window, so the window sill would roughly be 10 - 15 feet from the ground, figure the average height from your hands at the sill to your feet is abour 6' - you'd only be "falling" about 4-11 feet.

Thoughts?

Glad to see they got outta there - and even happier knowing that the ladder escape was an option, too often at fire scenes the ground ladders aren't thrown nearly as much as they should be.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

585 good thoughts and 2nd floor hang and drop is taught in lecture in NYS FF survival curriculum but for obvious reasons it is not performed.

Anytime you are setting up ladders for means of egress from upper floors I often discuss the possibility or desire to do so with the angle of inclination being a little more shallow then normal in the event someone would have to bail out. I'm not talking a ton...but enough to assist a brother without dropping like a rock if they had to bail out.

I also want to add a couple things about that video. For one any state or program that has a bail out program would call that far from proper technique. However...$hit happens and as someone said...those guys needed to get out rapidly and they were coming out. CONDITIONS OFTEN DICTATE TACTICS! I've watched the video several times and I honestly believe that if the first firefighter coming out would have attempted to use proper technique, his partner may have attempted to climb on his back as conditions at one point weren't rapidly deteriorating...they were deteriorated! I believe there are things to learn from everything and I just like no one starts with the usual "here we go monday morning quarterbacking" comments. IMO I could still use the video to say it wasn't proper technique...however, they had to go and did what they did and use the conditions in the back as a learning tool of how to recognize deterioration and impending flashover.

[Guest partyrock]

ALS you nailed it. Conditions dictate tactics. My first time and so far only time becoming one with the flashover resulted in 3 guys going superman out a window. As luck would have it thats where the fire escape happened to be. The window frame was nothing. It was the far side of the fire escape stopped us cold.

[FFD941 20]

Yes, what I meant was a ladder placed at the proper climbing angle or even close to it, those guys would not have been able to "control" their descent as well as they did. Sorry for the confusion.

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In the NYS FF Survival class we are taught to place the ladder at a greater then "Proper" angle just for this reason.

All in all there may have been some problems with the techniques used or the way things were done, but in the end you start to think "Who Cares"...

EVERYONE WENT HOME

Learn From Our Mistakes.Train Like You Fight.Stay Safe.

[robert benz 344]

In the NYS FF Survival class we are taught to place the ladder at a greater then "Proper" angle just for this reason.

All in all there may have been some problems with the techniques used or the way things were done, but in the end you start to think "Who Cares"...

                     

                        EVERYONE WENT HOME

Learn From Our Mistakes.Train Like You Fight.Stay Safe.

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sorry but in my world i dont live with "the ends justify the means", they got lucky and luck runs out.

I dont teach to put the ladder at the wrong angle i put up a ladder the way i will climb it.

[FFD941 20]

sorry but in my world i dont live with "the ends justify the means", they got lucky  and luck runs out.

I dont teach to put the ladder at the wrong angle  i put up a ladder the way i will climb it.

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That is correct and that is the way it should be taught. However there is a difference in angles when climbing a ladder and bailing out of a window. This ladder was placed in the window for the purpose of FF bailout.

[antiquefirelt 994]

sorry but in my world i dont live with "the ends justify the means", they got lucky  and luck runs out.

I dont teach to put the ladder at the wrong angle  i put up a ladder the way i will climb it.

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I guess we're missing something here then. The ladder was not up until the firefighter was hanging from the window. Therefore it was placed correctly in the bail position. I was a little doubtful a few posts back when you said shorten the ladder up, now I'm very doubtful. Too steep and you will have a much harder time controlling the desent. And turning around on the ladder at the climbing angle is much harder. We teach when ladder are thown for entry you put them at climbing angles, but ladders thrown to windows for secondary egress are put up at shallower angles to facilitate a safer escape.

I have a hard time seeing these guys get criticized over the technique chosen when fire was licking their tails. Maybe things shouldn't have got to this point, but these guys are safe and doing calls again on the same tour! EGH!! The first guy was coming out without the ladder so sitting around mulling which escape option was best didn't seem to be a factor for them. Thankfully someone was ready nearby to move the ladder to them. I wouldn;t for one minute criticize coming all the way down headfirst, his butt was burning and he knows his partner is behind him! And the window drop is nice when you're the only one around but the few guys I've talked to or read about who have been in simialr situations say they were bailing out headfirst and didn't care if there was a laddder, roof or anything to catch them! It hurts that much!

Let's be realistic, unless you're in the sh*t with those guys you don't criticize how they saved their own bacon!

And in the perfect world that would have had the ladder ready in the perfect position (low and long) the firefighters wouldn't have needed to bail. They would have come out the way they went in. If you want to critque the incident lets work on how the brothers got into that predicament in the first place.

Lastly, I'll try to find the true story on the Capt. who broke his neck. From what I remember his bailout was imprompto onto a ladder that was set at theclimbing angle and his exit was too fast and he couldn't grab the rungs with his hands or feet. But it was not a sanctioned training exercise.

Edited June 9, 2007 by antiquefirelt

[antiquefirelt 994]

Here's a link to the NIOSH report on the ladder bail fatality:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face9925.html

He was not a RIT instructor, it was not an escape class and the ladder was set to ascend (75 degrees) and attack the fire through the window, not for escape. The ladder was into the window 9".

Ladder bails are dangerous, but I am a firm beleiver that they are a valid option that you should have done in training before you find yourself bailing out like you saw in some video! Better yet is for a dept. to drill on it, then spend alot of time training on how not to get put in the position to need to bail.