Improper Use of Handlines

[firemoose827 324]

Hey. I got in trouble the other day.

We had a structure fire in our neighboring district who happens to have us on auto-MA during the day. When we arrived on scene with our engine and rescue, both fully staffed, (about 15 firefighters) they only had an engine with a driver. The fire was in the front of the house and there was a report of someone "possibly" inside. We stretched the line to the back door with a crew of four, the line, irons, and TIC. The driver of their eng. is an assistant chief, we had our assist chief and LT with us. We started to advance the line, the Lt was on nozzle with a backup, and myself and the asst chief were searching. Everything was going well, we were knocking the fire down and we had determined the girl was not inside but at a neighbors house. So we all started to pull ceilings and push towards the front of the house. I was using the TIC to locate fire for the nozzle, and it wasnt picking up any real hot spots where we were. There was some fire in the front and we were making our way to the front when all of a sudden the fire just started to push right at us and the TIC read 500-600 deg. We had to abandon the line and climb out through the dining room window out to the porch.

The second due MA company saw the fire and decided we werent doing our job and opened the line from the front and pushed the fire right at us. The chief on the eng didnt see it right away because he was setting up a portable pond. Our chief went nuts and ran around to the front. The eng. chief started hollering at them and told our chief to take IC untill someone else got there.

The point I would like to make is to always set up IC at EVERY call so it becomes second nature. We use it at everything from auto-alarms to structures.

Second, I am trying to spark discussion on a few topics here; IC system, proper use of handline deployment and size.

Another thing, does anyone here think freelancing is bad, or is it just me? What happened to the staging area and waiting for assignments? Its starting to get bad around here where ff's just go to work, without orders, no accountability. Its scary. Maybe Im in the wrong county.

And for all of you out there screaming " He's bashing other dept's, stop him" im not. I am merely starting a discussion thread to HOPEFULLY get some input from the experienced senior guys out there about the topics mentioned. Im the type that loves to go to the firehouse and just listen to the senior guys share experiences of fires. Its how we learn.

And how did I get in trouble? Later in the fire, since the house was 3/4 involved after the incident with the handlines, I was resting after my third bottle and watching another officer from the second due dept pace back and forth, cursing about something. He got close enough to me and said "Were losing the damn thing because we arnent attacking it the right way"

Like the show "Mind of Mencia" my finger came up and I started to offer my opinions to this officer about his guys chasing us out of the house earlier, and maybe if we didnt have opposing handlines we could get inside and put it out. I was respectfull, bit my tongue, but I didnt see my asst chief behind me with a big smile on his face. He pulled me asside and said"If I wasnt as pissed as you I would be mad at you, but I will let it slide."

Discussion? Please? Input?

Stay safe.

Moose

[Guest]

One question. Why in God's name would you stretch your 1st attack line to the rear of the house if the fire is in the front? To me. it seems like to much of a waste of time. Stretch to the front door and begin hitting it asap, especially if there's a staircase to protect. On that note what kind of house was it? Maybe you can put some pictures up of it so we could see it first hand and critique it constructively?

[Guest]

One question. Why in God's name would you stretch your 1st attack line to the rear of the house if the fire is in the front? To me. it seems like to much of a waste of time. Stretch to the front door and begin hitting it asap, especially if there's a staircase to protect. On that note what kind of house was it? Maybe you can put some pictures up of it so we could see it first hand and critique it constructively?

←

This was the immediate first thought I had as well as soon as I read the original post.

The 1st attack line goes through the front door. For a multitude of reasons which I will not elaborate on here, if you want a primer on this pick up Dunn's Fire Officers Handbook and read up on strategy and tactics at private dwellings.

Your original post raises other issues as well, it will be interesting to see how those get answered as well.

I have a feeling that the 1st attack line went through the back door in this scenario because of the fallacious notion that "you must always attack from the unburned side to the burned side".

[Guest partyrock]

While the initatial placement of the handline is an issue, I'm more concerned about the opposing lines. If you are second due and you don't know where that line is you had better figure it out and quick. My first time bailing out a window I was back-up on a 2 story heavy timber pvt dwelling with fire on the 2-3 corner 2nd floor. We entered from the stick into the hallway (interior stairs all but removed during renovation) and we were making a good push. Just as we chased the fire out of the hallway and into the room or origin some jackass dumped a into the window when we pushed the fire out of it. I went head first down the ladder and the nozzel man took the express to the ground. Never make entry until you know what is going on with the other line(s).

The IC needs to be infront of the incident with eyes and ears on the job at hand. In my opinion he shouldn't even be on the radio, let alone setting up ponds or checking the back. If it helps, throw a power nailer on your rig. Chief starts wandering throw a few shots threw foot. He'll slow down.

Freelancing is so dangerous its scary. I have the luxery where when I get off a rig on a structure fire most of the time I know my job and get to work. Everyone has specific tasks that we are expected to accomplish depending on the type of call and our order of arrival.

[helicopper 1,050]

Partyrock is right on... Someone needs to be not just IC in title but in actually command of the incident. If the highest ranking officer is actively working the operation, he/she isn't going to be in command and things like this are going to happen. Sounds like the two chief's should have had a quick 30 second pow-wow while you guys were stretching the line to determine who was going to do what and transfer command to the other chief if he was committed to setting up the portable pond.

I know I'll take heat for this but as much as we all say we "use ICS" more often than not we really don't. At least not to the level we could/should.

The only downside to the nailgun is you're constantly replacing boots. I once saw someone who will remain nameless draw a circle on the ground with a lumber crayon, put the IC in the circle, and threaten him with bodily harm if he left it. Absolutey hysterical. But it worked and we all knew where the CP was.

[firemoose827 324]

Well, I guess I am from the old school of training. I was always trained to push the fire from the unburned to the burned, so your pushing it out and not through the rest of the house. The first line idealy, should yes go to the stairs to protect it. But thats in a perfect world of staffed engines and ladder co.'s where like partyrock said, each man has a riding assignment and knows what theyre doing before they even get out the door. Than the second line goes to attack the fire. Also, with someone trapped, do you realy want to push the fire "AT" them? I was always taught to put the first line between the fire and victims if possible. I didnt realise my training was that out-dated, wow.

I read John Normans "Fire Officers Handbook of Tactics" when I took "Tactics" in college. Than there are the numerous articles on fog vs. straight stream in Fire Engineering. Its an interesting topic because I have heard valid arguments from both sides. So the question arises; attack from the unburned and push it out, or go straight for the throat and do a direct attack?

But, when I took firefighter II the instruction was to always attack and push the fire "out" of the building.

The building was 2 1/2 story wood frame platform, clapboard siding, tin roof, approx. 40x60. The fire orig. in the upstairs bathroom in the front of the house and extended down the front stairs to the living room and throught the second floor.

That was exactly my point on the opposing lines, they jeopardised us by opening up without checking our location first.

IC is something we are trying to stress more in this county, and your hearing more of it everyday. You used to hear officers call on scene and say nothing. You were left in suspense, is it burning or not, do they need mutual aid?

Now they call on scene, status, unit number establishing command. Its still tough to keep our IC's in one spot though, they want to get dirty and see whats happening instead of relying on their Jr. officers.

Thanks for the responses.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Jonesy368

[Guest]

Well, I guess I am from the old school of training.  I was always trained to push the fire from the unburned to the burned, so your pushing it out and not through the rest of the house.  The first line idealy, should yes go to the stairs to protect it.  But thats in a perfect world of staffed engines and ladder co.'s where like partyrock said, each man has a riding assignment and knows what theyre doing before they even get out the door.  Than the second line goes to attack the fire.  Also, with someone trapped, do you realy want to push the fire "AT" them?  I was always taught to put the first line between the fire and victims if possible.  I didnt realise my training was that out-dated, wow.

The point I was trying to make, and was not clear about, is that pushing from the "burned to the unburned" is not a bad strategy, but it is also not the only strategy either. Just as it would be silly to put the first line at the front door if there is no front of the building left.

People have a tendency to put the blinders on and follow a rule rather than keeping their eyes open as to what is going around them, which is why you get situations like the one you were in where you have opposing streams.

Regardless, the picture you paint of this fire is still hazy. In your initial post it sounds like you had the fire knocked with the initial line, and the second line pushed fire to you... but from where? A better description of the events might help.

And, Norman cites many more reasons than protecting the stairs as the reasons for going in through the front door.

That was exactly my point on the opposing lines, they jeopardised us by opening up without checking our location first.

[antiquefirelt 994]

If you're going to follow any rule, follow the "first line through the front door at PD's everytime" Rule. Unburned to burned is old and was developed when we used 1.5" lines on fog with inadequate flows to "push" the fire from the building. Now we attack using a flow set to overcome the BTU's and put the fire out at the seat. We use straight stream or better yet smoothbores to ensure that we DO NOT PUSH the fire! As SQ47 said Unburned to burned is not a bad tactic, but it should only be used when all other things are eqaul, which is just about....wait for it...0% of the time. If you have any thought of possible victims (which you always should) then the front door allows you to get the line between the stairs or other primary means of egress and the fire. Stretching to the rear takes longer and most often leaves the open stairs unprotected.

And you're quite right: Freelancing is unacceptable and dangerous.

[firemoose827 324]

If you're going to follow any rule, follow the "first line through the front door at PD's everytime" Rule. Unburned to burned is old and was developed when we used 1.5" lines on fog with inadequate flows to "push" the fire from the building. Now we attack using a flow set to overcome the BTU's and put the fire out at the seat. We use straight stream or better yet smoothbores to ensure that we DO NOT PUSH the fire! As SQ47 said Unburned to burned is not a bad tactic, but it should only be used when all other things are eqaul, which is just about....wait for it...0% of the time. If you have any thought of possible victims (which you always should) then the front door allows you to get the line between the stairs or other primary means of egress and the fire. Stretching to the rear takes longer and most often leaves the open stairs unprotected.

And you're quite right: Freelancing is unacceptable and dangerous.

←

Thank you for the reply, I respect your experience on the matter.

I guess what we are all saying is, the fire service is evolving, and as it does so do the tactics we employ to control fire. Its rough going through training and having it beet into you about certain tactics, than going out and learning 200 more from officers, magazine and proffessional articles and books. I started this thread to allow the younger ff's to see that they need to keep an open mind and learn everything they can from wherever they can.

thanks all, stay safe

Moose

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Antique summed up what I thought when I read it also. Jonesy I also was taught that in the academy and was quickly unlearned when I got on the street by experience fairfax county firefighters and fire officers. We hae the ability to overwhelm the fire with proper flows especially if good handline selection is taken.

I can't agree more with you that command needs to be established on ALL call types. This also allows line officers to get good at it and also line firefighters when officers aren't available. This also goes along with switching to working channels on radios that are not repeated.

Freelancing is the cancer of any incident. If you let it go unchecked it will spread and in the end can kill one of us or make the incident harder to deal with.

[Guest]

Hey.    I got in trouble the other day.

We had a structure fire in our neighboring district who happens to have us on auto-MA during the day.  When we arrived on scene with our engine and rescue, both fully staffed, (about 15 firefighters) they only had an engine with a driver.  The fire was in the front of the house and there was a report of someone "possibly" inside.  We stretched the line to the back door with a crew of four, the line, irons, and TIC.  The driver of their eng. is an assistant chief, we had our assist chief and LT with us.  We started to advance the line, the Lt was on nozzle with a backup, and myself and the asst chief were searching.  Everything was going well, we were knocking the fire down and we had determined the girl was not inside but at a neighbors house.  So we all started to pull ceilings and push towards the front of the house.  I was using the TIC to locate fire for the nozzle, and it wasnt picking up any real hot spots where we were.  There was some fire in the front and we were making our way to the front when all of a sudden the fire just started to push right at us and the TIC read 500-600 deg.  We had to abandon the line and climb out through the dining room window out to the porch.

The second due MA company saw the fire and decided we werent doing our job and opened the line from the front and pushed the fire right at us.  The chief on the eng didnt see it right away because he was setting up a portable pond.  Our chief went nuts and ran around to the front.  The eng. chief started hollering at them and told our chief to take IC untill someone else got there.

The point I would like to make is to always set up IC at EVERY call so it becomes second nature.  We use it at everything from auto-alarms to structures. 

Second, I am trying to spark discussion on a few topics here;  IC system, proper use of handline deployment and size.

Another thing, does anyone here think freelancing is bad, or is it just me?  What happened to the staging area and waiting for assignments?  Its starting to get bad around here where ff's just go to work, without orders, no accountability.  Its scary.  Maybe Im in the wrong county.

And for all of you out there screaming " He's bashing other dept's, stop him" im not.  I am merely starting a discussion thread to HOPEFULLY get some input from the experienced senior guys out there about the topics mentioned.  Im the type that loves to go to the firehouse and just listen to the senior guys share experiences of fires.  Its how we learn.

And how did I get in trouble?  Later in the fire, since the house was 3/4 involved after the incident with the handlines, I was resting after my third bottle and watching another officer from the second due dept pace back and forth, cursing about something.  He got close enough to me and said "Were losing the damn thing because we arnent attacking it the right way"

Like the show "Mind of Mencia" my finger came up and I started to offer my opinions to this officer about his guys chasing us out of the house earlier, and maybe if we didnt have opposing handlines we could get inside and put it out.  I was respectfull, bit my tongue, but I didnt see my asst chief behind me with a big smile on his face.  He pulled me asside and said"If I wasnt as pissed as you I would be mad at you, but I will let it slide."

Discussion?  Please?  Input?

Stay safe.

Moose

←

Well, I guess I am from the old school of training. I was always trained to push the fire from the unburned to the burned, so your pushing it out and not through the rest of the house. The first line idealy, should yes go to the stairs to protect it. But thats in a perfect world of staffed engines and ladder co.'s where like partyrock said, each man has a riding assignment and knows what theyre doing before they even get out the door. Than the second line goes to attack the fire. Also, with someone trapped, do you realy want to push the fire "AT" them? I was always taught to put the first line between the fire and victims if possible. I didnt realise my training was that out-dated, wow. 

I read John Normans "Fire Officers Handbook of Tactics" when I took "Tactics" in college. Than there are the numerous articles on fog vs. straight stream in Fire Engineering. Its an interesting topic because I have heard valid arguments from both sides. So the question arises; attack from the unburned and push it out, or go straight for the throat and do a direct attack?

But, when I took firefighter II the instruction was to always attack and push the fire "out" of the building.

The building was 2 1/2 story wood frame platform, clapboard siding, tin roof, approx. 40x60. The fire orig. in the upstairs bathroom in the front of the house and extended down the front stairs to the living room and throught the second floor.

That was exactly my point on the opposing lines, they jeopardised us by opening up without checking our location first.

IC is something we are trying to stress more in this county, and your hearing more of it everyday. You used to hear officers call on scene and say nothing. You were left in suspense, is it burning or not, do they need mutual aid?

Now they call on scene, status, unit number establishing command. Its still tough to keep our IC's in one spot though, they want to get dirty and see whats happening instead of relying on their Jr. officers.

Thanks for the responses.

After mulling these posts over, I am left wondering about a couple of things.

First of all, I think the majority of people here, given the information presented thus far, with no other extenuating circumstances, would not have stretched to the rear.

My question for you, is,"Who gave the order to stretch to the rear?"

And what were the other 11 guys doing while the 4 of you were inside?

And, some commentary regarding the fully staffed engines and trucks with riding assignments:

Riding assignments are a valuable tool to help company officers and incident commanders manage the incident. But, the members do not have to ride to the scene in a particular seat in order to use this concept, which help tremendously in not having to micro-manage your crew.

Here is a for instance:

I am IC, managing an incident. I see 9 firefighters in front of me waiting for me to tell them what to do.

I look at the first group of three, 2 firefighters and an officer, assign them as "fire attack officer", "Nozzle", and "Backup".

With no further instruction from me, they know that unless otherwise directed, their job is to stretch an attack line and put out the fire. If I have told them to back up the first line, they will do so.

I look at the second group of three, and assign them "inside team officer", "irons", and "can Man".

With no further instruction from me, they know that unless otherwise directed they will help the engine gain entry, help locate the seat of the fire, and do a rapid but thorough primary search of the fire floor.

I look at the third group of three, and assign them all as "outside team", and designate the senior firefighter in charge of the team.

With no further instruction from me, they know that unless otherwise directed they will perfrom Ventilation, Entry, and Search. At most PD's in my first due district, with bedrooms upstairs, they will ladder bedroom windows, enter, and search, ventilating all the way.

In 45 seconds, I have deployed three groups that, if they have been trained to know what is expected of them in that assignment, will get the jobs done that are needed to effect a positive resolution of the incident.

Again, Dunn gives a much better treatment of this than I can do here, but you get the basics.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Sqd47

[firemoose827 324]

After mulling these posts over, I am left wondering about a couple of things.

First of all, I think the majority of people here, given the information presented thus far, with no other extenuating circumstances, would not have stretched to the rear.

My question for you, is,"Who gave the order to stretch to the rear?"

And what were the other 11 guys doing while the 4 of you were inside?

And, some commentary regarding the fully staffed engines and trucks with riding assignments:

Riding assignments are a valuable tool to help company officers and incident commanders manage the incident. But, the members do not have to ride to the scene in a particular seat in order to use this concept, which help tremendously in not having to micro-manage your crew.

Here is a for instance:

I am IC, managing an incident. I see 9 firefighters in front of me waiting for me to tell them what to do.

I look at the first group of three, 2 firefighters and an officer, assign them as "fire attack officer", "Nozzle", and "Backup".

With no further instruction from me, they know that unless otherwise directed, their job is to stretch an attack line and put out the fire. If I have told them to back up the first line, they will do so.

I look at the second group of three, and assign them "inside team officer", "irons", and "can Man".

With no further instruction from me, they know that unless otherwise directed they will help the engine gain entry, help locate the seat of the fire, and do a rapid but thorough primary search of the fire floor.

I look at the third group of three, and assign them all as "outside team", and designate the senior firefighter in charge of the team.

With no further instruction from me, they know that unless otherwise directed they will perfrom Ventilation, Entry, and Search. At most PD's in my first due district, with bedrooms upstairs, they will ladder bedroom windows, enter, and search, ventilating all the way.

In 45 seconds, I have deployed three groups that, if they have been trained to know what is expected of them in that assignment, will get the jobs done that are needed to effect a positive resolution of the incident.

Again, Dunn gives a much better treatment of this than I can do here, but you get the basics.

←

The other 11 guys were putting up ladders, ventilating, or assisting the MPO's. Three of them were standing by outside with packs ready to relieve us. We had the FAST on site as well.

I need to get Dunns book too, I have read tons of his articles and went to a seminar he taught on Search and Rescue principles. He is truly a great firefighter. As I stated in the last post of mine I started this thread to help keep the younger ff's aware of the need to constantly be learning.

As far as who gave the order to stretch to the rear I do not know, I was on the rescue and arrived after our engine had already stretched. When I got there my asst chief told me to take the TIC in with the attack team and he'd help me with a search.

A question for you Sqd47, does the training in CT differ much from NY? Do the curriculums of FFI and II match or differ from ours? I am just curious to see how different states teach their ff's. Maybe ALSFF can elaborate also, I know he is an instructor. Thanks guys.

[Guest]

A question for you **************, does the training in CT differ much from NY?  Do the curriculums of FFI and II match or differ from ours?  I am just curious to see how different states teach their ff's.  Maybe ALSFF can elaborate also, I know he is an instructor.  Thanks guys.

←

I am unfamiliar with the training in NY, so I do not know how it compares. Firefighters in CT are state certified using IFSTA qualifications and materials.

You make a good point about younger members needing to learn and keep learning through their careers. Any certification class is just a step in the front door; ongoing learning and training is what makes you a good firefighter. We have all heard, "This is the answer for the test, but this is how it really gets done in the real world."

My department is fortunate enough to have some very experienced members who are also excellent instructors to help impart this real world knowledge to newer members who have the desire to learn more.