Class A or B foam for a liquor store fire?

[Guest MRK303]

I was asked a great question this afternoon: If a liquor store catches fire, would you use class A or class B foam (due to the flammable liquids)?

[lad12derff 283]

I would use water.

[Guest]

Would it even be a huge problem? I mean, alcohol burns off pretty quick.

[Guest MRK303]

Would it even be a huge problem? I mean, alcohol burns off pretty quick.

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I mean you’re talking about hundreds of bottles falling, breaking and exploding all around you. I think its something important to think about.

[sr71 1]

I would use water only because alcohol burns really fast, but thats just for your everyday not so large store. but if you get a costco sized store id have to either use water or foam

[IzzyEng4 427]

Ice, a high ball glass and some fruit....

Seriously though. Initial attack should be water from an initial outside attack with a large diameter attack line (2 or 2 1/2 inch line). Now if the entire stock of liquor has been compromise, the contents would have mostly burned off by the time first water was placed on the fire. Remember this, any alcohol will not easily ignite if it is less than 150 Proof (75% alcohol per volume) but the flip side it that all alcohol vapors WILL ignited under IDHL conditions.

If the liquor store is fully involved then there is no reason to use any foam. if the fire consumed much of the building, a normal clean water attack should suffice. But if a foam operation is necessary then CLASS B foam should be used since you area dealing with vapors from the product and presenting the possibility of vapors igniting.

Class A is structural foam and since you area dealing with a vapor emitting product, class A foam will not suppress vapors as well as class B / AFFF

Edited May 13, 2007 by IzzyEng4

[RWC130 594]

Call in as many FASTeams as possible and put them to work

removing LIQUOR!

Call the Red Cross ask for as many Coolers and Ice as possible,

I/C will arrange a Police Escort.

LOL!

Had to make you guys laugh!

OK, in all seriousness. Good topic. Gets you to start thinking!!!

I'd go with Water too however if you can attack with Foam that

is a good idea.

Is your department trained in the use of A and B type Foam and

it's various use or do you just have a few big white jugs that say "Foam" ???

TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING!!!

[Guest MRK303]

Great feedback...and YES, our department in Millwood is trained in the use of class A and B foam and it's various uses.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Izzy hit it on the head. Most liquor doesn't have a high enough alcohol content to be that much of a concern. Commercial building = 2 1/2" line, 250 GPM target flow. Lots O' Water. Class A...great...lots O' water and surfactant. Class B...would depend on size up continuity. I haven't seen too many liquor store fires with foam pouring out of them.

[firemoose827 324]

Here is a little "Foam 101" for you brother. Found it online, but I am computer illiterate and couldnt copy and paste the link for some reason.

[edit] Class A foams

Class A foams were developed in mid 1980s for firefighting wildfires. Favorable practical experiences led to its increasing acceptance for fighting other types of class A fires, including structure fires. [1] Class A foams facilitate wetting of the class A fuels, lowering the surface tension of the water and assisting with saturating them with water, which helps suppressing the fire and preventing reignition.

[edit] Class B foams

Class B foams are designed for firefighting on class B fires - burning flammable liquids. Using class A foam for extinguishing of a class B fire may lead to unexpected results, as the class A foams are not designed to contain the explosive vapors produced by the flammable liquids. Class B foams have two major subtypes.

[edit] Synthetic foams

Synthetic foams are foams based on synthetic surfactants. Synthetic foams provide better flow, faster knockdown of the flames, but limited post-fire security.

Aqueous film forming foams (AFFF) are water-based foams, frequently containing alpha-olefin sulfonates, and/or perfluorooctane sulfonate (PFOS) and perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) as surfactants. They have the ability to spread over the surface of hydrocarbon-based liquids. Alcohol-resistant aqueous film forming foams (AR-AFFF) are foams resistant to the action of alcohols, able to form the protective film even in their presence.

[edit] Protein foams

Protein foams contain naturally occurring proteins as the foaming agents. Protein foams flow and spread slower, but provide a foam blanket that is more heat resistant and more durable.

Protein foams include regular protein foam (P), fluoroprotein foam (FP), alcohol resistant fluoroprotein foam (AR-FP), film forming fluoroprotein (FFFP), and alcohol-resistant film fluoroprotein (AR-FFFP).

[edit] Applications

Every type of foam has its best application. High-expansion foams are used when an enclosed space, e.g. a basement or a hangar, has to be quickly filled. Low-expansion foams are used on burning spills. AFFF is best for spills of jet fuels, FFFP is better for cases where the burning fuel can form deeper pools, AR-FP is suitable for burning alcohols. The most flexibility is achieved by AR-AFFF or AR-FFFP. AR-FFFP has to be used in areas where gasolines are blended with oxygenates, which prevent the formation of the film between the AFFF foam and the gasoline and break down the foam, rendering the AFFF foam virtually useless.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Izzy hit it on the head.  Most liquor doesn't have a high enough alcohol content to be that much of a concern.  Commercial building = 2 1/2" line, 250 GPM target flow.  Lots O' Water.  Class A...great...lots O' water and surfactant.  Class B...would depend on size up continuity.  I haven't seen too many liquor store fires with foam pouring out of them.

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Hey ALS with that much water, I hope we don;t water down the scotch too much!!!

Thanks for putting in the target flow I forgot to add that!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Any time Izz...and just for FYI only...the only water that goes into my scotch is the frozen kind.

Johnny Walker Gold or Blue!!

[Guest]

Johnny Walker Gold or Blue!!

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Wow, someone's got expensive taste

[x635 4,066]

Someone may ask why Jack Daniels has a Fire Brigade. They have an Engine and a ladder, of which the ladder pipe was fitted with a Class B foam application nozzle.

There have been a couple of distillery fires over the past years that have required the application of Class B foam. I remember runoff from one of them got into the sewer system, and caused additional problems for the incident.

As I was taught, treat a liquor store fire using your extreme discretion. Although it's not a distilery, there are some large "liquor warehouse" type stores in the area.

ALSO, who has tractor trailers or trucks carrying liquor pass through their community- what and how much are they carrying on their distrubution route?

Code 3 also replicated the Jack Daniels apparatus (I couldn't find any other photos):

[attachmentid=2738]

[attachmentid=2737]

(Photos: http://www.code3.net)

Every day, the Jack Daniel's master distiller ensures that Jack Daniel's Tennessee Whiskey is made and mellowed according to the time-honored methods used in Mr. Jack Daniel's day and appreciated in 130 countries around the world.

At the same time, the 25 members of the Jack Daniel's Fire Brigade protect that whiskey and the town of Lynchburg where it resides.

Jack Daniel's comes off the still at 140 proof, making it a darn good fire starter as well as a pretty fair sipping whiskey. And with a good number of warehouses filled with barrels, there's plenty to fuel a mighty big blaze. The warehouses are scattered out a good distance from one another to prevent fire from spreading and the Jack Daniel's Fire Brigade has a great tool in its arsenal of fire-fighting weapons.

[Guest]

HAVING BEEN A VETERAN OF A FEW LIQUOR STORE FIRES, I CAN TELL YOU WATER WORKS JUST FINE.

AS I RECALL, INVESTIGATION WAS DIFFICULT FOR THE ARSON K-9 ESSPECIALLY IN THE 151 RUM SECTION

[Remember585 815]

AS I RECALL, INVESTIGATION WAS DIFFICULT FOR THE ARSON K-9 ESSPECIALLY IN THE 151 RUM SECTION

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That poor dog....

[JetPhoto 626]

Just remember to check all firefighters pockets before they leave. LoL

[Oswegowind 17]

No, just don't forget to bring some to the dispatchers!!!!!!!!!!! Insurance is covering the rest...and insurance agents don't drink, right?