Bayonne,NJ Chief Claims Volunteers Costly

[Guest]

Bayonne, NJ Chief Claims Volunteers Costly

Jersey Journal (New Jersey)

Using municipal fire volunteers isn't a financially sound option because it would likely push up local fire insurance rates, Bayonne's Acting Fire Chief Patrick Boyle said yesterday.

Boyle was responding to a proposal by Councilman Anthony Chiappone that the city consider using a combination of paid and volunteer firefighters as one way to economize on city expenses.

The city is trying to plug a $25 million hole in the budget for its current fiscal year that expires June 30. So far, the City Council has been unable to come to an agreement on how to end the year with a balanced budget.

In any event, Boyle - named acting chief by Mayor Joseph V. Doria Jr. to replace the retiring Chief Thomas Lynch - said that replacing part of the paid department with volunteers "would risk raising property insurance rates in Bayonne," based on ratings of a community's fire protection by the Insurance Services Office.

"Currently, Bayonne has a rating of 2 (based on 1 as best to 10 as worst)," Boyle said. "If we switched to a combination fire department that included volunteers and professionals, that rating would be endangered," he said.

Perth Amboy, for example, which has such a combination, has a rating of 6, he said.

Boyle said many insurance companies use ISO's ratings - which also factor in a community's water supply and types of property in a community - to help set the premiums they charge for property insurance.

"When firefighters are volunteers, the initial response time can increase, especially if firefighters are at their civilian jobs at the time the alarm goes off," Boyle said.

"Bayonne can maintain its high rating from ISO by maintaining its professional fire department staff, investing in equipment and training, and keeping its commitment to our residents' safety," Boyle said.

[NJMedic 96]

who's gonna get this landslide started?  Come-on you know you want to...

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Just for comprasion, White Plains is about the same size department as Bayonne.

Could you see White Plains being covered with volunteers?

Basically Councilman Anthony Chiappone is clueless.

The demographics alone would kill a volunteer department.

[Guest partyrock]

how does Albany work out with their dept?

[mfc2257 464]

I'm a life long volly and I've got to say that the idea of back tracking and trying to get vollies to fill spots where career staff were used isn't realistic. The fire/ems volume as well as the additional training needed to respond to ship fires would be too much to try and get off the ground in a reasonable time.

I'm all for vollies where they can handle the call volume, career where the stats require a full time agency, and combo inbetween. BUT to recreate a combo department where a career agency existed is a no win.

The only time I've seen this even close to happening is in a county wide department where career staff were placed in a station to supplement vollies and then the vollie leadership was able to recruit, motivate, & train enough vollies to cover the response need. The county then will often withdraw the career FF's if the assessment is that the vollies can handle the needs of the station.

Bayonne should stay with career only Jakes. No brainer.

[Doc 11]

Some people in Endicott, NY have been screwing around with talk of reverting to a combination department for about five years. It's a local joke, but it hides a serious fact. Their poor fiscal situation is due to the ongoing population exodus and the loss of big industry presence. When IBM and Endicott Johnson Corp pulled out of the village and was replaced with tax-break equipped EDZ projects that keep failing, the taxbase shrunk. Now the declining population (-3% a year) of mostly elderly folks is left with the bill.

This is a growing concern in upstate NY where a lot of communities are withering. Vibrant industrial cities are now becoming ghost towns with all the government apparatus of what they once were. I heard it once said, "Government once created cannot be destroyed". What happens when the community cannot support it's government services?

There is no going back. Once the tradition of a volunteer fire department is dead in a community, it's gone forever - especially if it's been gone for a few generations. There's no fathers and mothers pressuring the kids to join up. In most of these dying upstate cities, it's worse because there simply aren't a lot of younger, able-bodied people with free time. The young and educated leave for opportunities elsewhere.

The only solution right now is to cut services until it's dangerous, make due with a single engine company, rely on mutual aid for anything beyond smells and bells, and hope nobody gets killed. Until the legal apparatus exists to create consolidated county departments in NY, this is it. Even then you're just distributing the costs over a larger area - and if that area is poor and rural, you just might make matters a lot worse.

Maybe NJ has other options, but once the vollies are gone, they're gone.

[Monty 35]

how does Albany work out with their dept?

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The cities around Albany have municipal departments. Albany, Troy, Cohoes, Watervliet, Rensselaer, Green Island (actually a village and town in one) and the Watervliet Arsenal. These departments all have mutual aid agreements in place. Cohoes, Watervliet and Green Island often work together on anything other than a simple room and contents fire.

Once these departments have been called, the cities will then usually turn to the surrounding volunteers.

I remember a couple of stories, one was of City firefighters throwing bricks at volunteers on a fire scene - naturally a little bit of truth and a lot of noise. Another was when Albany's was short of ladders and rotated ladders in from adjoining volunteer departments. I also remember some big mill type fires in Cohoes where they called upon volunteer departments.

The City of Rensselaer appears to be a combination department. I found this site with information - I don't know how accurate it is though:

firedepartments.nethttp://www.firedepartments.net/NewYork/Rensselaer/RensselaerFireDepartment.html

[Guest]

I worked up at the Watervliet Arsenal and was told a story that happened many years ago.

It was a holiday and one of the Paid companies had a fire and only called on the paid crews for mutual aid...the volly chiefs were pissed ..the reason was let the vollys have the time with there families...so for any call that happened up there...the PAID called PAID...the VOLLYS called VOLLYS....you would have volly depts going through PD areas for mutual aid and vice versus....and the call would be just on the border also.

[Guest partyrock]

I had thought volleys worked in the city of Albany. A brother who died earlier this year was identified as an Albany volunteer firefighter.

DOC, I've spent alot of time up north and you hit the nail right on the head.

I've seen alot of depts in other areas across the country (some combo most volley) that have their members live in quarters when pulling duty on first due apperatus. Coverage and aditional apperatus were covered with a pager system and mutual aid. It allows them to effectively cover a much larger area since they are rolling right after the call comes in. It also keeps them busier since they cover a larger area, and we all know more work keeps guys more active.

[firemoose827 324]

Just to verify some things about the Albany area...

I volunteer here in Schoharie County, the western border to Albany County and Schenectady county. I have taken classes taught by battalion chiefs from both the city of Albany and Schenectady at the college in Schenectady. I have always heard of good working relationships between vollies and career staff, and two of these chiefs have relied HEAVILY on vollies numerous times. There is no brick throwing or any volly/career warfare that I am aware of.

About the topic at hand, I agree that once you are career there is no going back. You have established too many procedures and standards that a volunteer agency can not keep up with. Once the public has experienced the level of service provided by a career dept, they do not want to fall back on the lesser service. Ive been a jolly volly for 15 years now but unfortunately, the level of dedication has dropped and due to family and work obligations its difficult for most vollies to respond. The ones that do respond complain about the training requirements and get lazy habbits. They start to rely on crazy excuses like "I have been around the fire dept since I was in diapers, I know what I am doing." or " I was in the explorers, I dont need any more training."

There are no excuses in career depts and that level can not be duplicated by vollies. MOST vollies anyway.

Stay Safe.

[AFS1970 504]

I don't think it so much of a "you can't go back" thing as it is a case of starting fresh will take time, and not really provide the immediate solution the city needs.

Think about what would be required to start a brand new Volunteer department, or in this case a division of an existing department. First of all would be the recruitment, which involves too big an unknown. Are there a large enough number of people looking to volunteer in that community to do this?

Next would be training. Even if you didn't do a full time academy, the FF1 minimum would take a while to run, thus delaying the volunteers from being placed in service.

Then of course is the issue of responses. Are they looking for home responders, or scheduled staffing, or a mix of both?

It's not that it can't be done, I actually think it could be done. It certainly will not be a fast process and will not fix the budgetary issues.

[Guest]

To supplement and excellent post regarding upstate (good one Doc):

I spent 4 years of college in Elmira and was a volunteer there as well. (Not in the city, just outside) Elmira Fire Dept. is a fully career outfit and has been for MANY years, however the population is half what it once was and all but a skeleton of industry has fled. The city is left with 2 engines and one ladder. They respond with 1 officer, the chauffer and a firefighter. With that lean work force of 9 on a shift plus the chief, they cover almost 40,000 residents across 10 sq. miles. These guys work themselves to death, but simply cannot handle anything more than the MOST BASIC room and contents and even then they count on the neighbors to backfill. (Or the call back, luckily most on the job live local)

While there can be no "going back", there does need to be a restructuring of the county fire service system wide. If a department is going to require help on a very regular basis, then training and pre-panned mutual aid should be a priority. The city can't afford more guys, even though they need them, so lets adapt. The surrounding volly dept's and the city worked together well with great success. In order to protect the public in a the face of rising costs and lower tax base, we need to think outside the box when it comes to providing protection.

Edited May 9, 2007 by lfdR1