Resource Dispatching

[Remember585 815]

In what order do you think resources should be dispatched for the following:

Medical Emergency

Report of Fire (any type)

Motor-Vehicle Accident w/ Unknown injuries

I heard a call today where a PD (not my local PD) dispatched the patrol car to a call for someone in and out of consciousness with a medical history. After almost two minutes, they toned out the ambulance then called another PD to dispatch ALS.

The other night, I heard a PD (not mine) responding for an outside smoke investigation, and never sent an FD.

This happens all the time and the delay of getting help to those needing it has got to stop! What do you think? Any Cops care to come here and explain why they go first and sometimes alone to calls that should be given to FD and/or EMS?!

Not looking to start a war, but looking for some reasoning behind how things happen.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

My other post did not make it up so I am sorry if you see a repeat.

My DEPT runs like this. E-911 is called. The disp picks up and depending on if that person is calling from their house or not all information is given on the screen. We confirm with person calling and ask nature and dispatch closest Patrol and Medic unit. We then may have to call 60 control or another Police agency to have the VAC dipatched. This takes some time. Then you have to wait for the VOLUNTEERS to get to the building then respond to the call if they can even get out. If they can't then you have to deal with Mutual Aid.

We also have FD pagers from all the agencies in our area in our DISP area. If a call comes through there then we dispatch a Patrol unit. Sometimes the call comes in VIA an ALARM CO. We then send a Patrol Unit and notify 60 control. Again the FD has to be paged and you have to wait for a responding FD UNIT. This all takes some time. I am not sure about your neighboring area but it sounds like there might be a problem. The other problem is, if we all went to PAID services RESPONSE TIME would be better.

I happen to keep times just for myself when EMS and FD are dispatched to certain things. AUTOMATIC ALARMS with nothing showing I really don't care about. But when it comes to EMS I go crazy if the AMB is not there in a reasonable amount of time. That depends on the time of day though.

We have had this issue before. I am not making this a PAID issue either. The numbers speak for themselves. No before you all jump down my throat with numbers about your area. RELAX some are better than others. Our job should be to get those OTHERS to be the same as YOU.

[AFS1970 504]

Any delays that are inherent in the system are exactly the reason we should not be dispatching late. If we know for example that the VAC / FD will have to assemble a crew and then respond to the scene, isn't it in everyone's best interest to dispatch that agency as soon as possible?

One reason for dual dispatch was explained to me a few years ago, when a high number of assaults were being reported as man down / unknown medical. EMS would get to the scene, treat the patient, transport the patient, and then the hospital would report the assault. By that time, there was no viable crime scene, and little chance of apprehending an assailant. So for a while we had to send PD to any man down / unknown medicals. This quickly went away, after it was discovered that the vast majority of these calls were not criminal matters.

Still and all, there is no reason to send any agency first to another services primary responsibility. In my dispatch center structure fires are routed to both the Fire & Police Dispatchers. Since Police units generally have a shorter response time, as they are on the road already, they can usually get to the scene faster. I have seen many dispatchers send PD, as the tones are being transmitted and they are on scene prior to the FD units signing on (even fully staffed career units) which leads to the inevitable arguments on who parks where. Some of us are beginning to wait for the FD to get a fighting chance then sending the PD for the support roles of traffic control and scene security.

[mlcougar2001 8]

I was in a town to remain nameless like 2 weeks ago when I heard over PD dispatch for a patrol unit to go over to such and such address for a fire alarm "check and advise". 5 minutes later the officer was on scene and asked if FD had been dispatched, which they never were because the call came into the PD and they never notified 60control. The patrol unit radios in 2-3minutes on scene that he has a smoke condition in the house notify FD. 3-5minutes later the tone hit for the FD. I don't understand why if it is an FD call why you would send the PD first. I'm not saying they shouldn't come because they do have resources that help the FD, like key holder info. etc. Would you send the FD for shots fired because someone called the FD dispatcher? "NO" you would notify the police. If I was a homeowner and I found out that the police responded to my fire alarm and my house was on fire and then they never notified the FD I would be pissed, and now a days where everyone and the mother has a scanner in the house why wouldn't the PD just follow procedure. My big question for the police members of EMTbravo is what is the big deal in notifying the FD paid or unpaid?

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I don't determine how the call comes in I just either get sent there or dispatch a car there. If a call comes in and we have a Civialian Disp working then we work TOGETHER on dispatching who needs to be dispatched. If I need to call Fire Control then that is what I do. There is very little lag time that I take. Now I won't speak for other Dept in the County because I know that I have called and it takes like 6 rings for them to pick up the phone. ANd I am not talking a busy Dept either.'

"If I was a homeowner and I found out that the police responded to my fire alarm and my house was on fire and then they never notified the FD I would be pissed, and now a days where everyone and the mother has a scanner in the house why wouldn't the PD just follow procedure. My big question for the police members of EMTbravo is what is the big deal in notifying the FD paid or unpaid?"

That's right the PD doesn't want the FD dispatched so your house burns down. Give me a break please. Stop making this out to be a PD issue. Sometimes it does get busy in a Comm room as anyone on here that does it can tell you. How many times does a False Alarm come then it turns out to be a Working Structure Fire? Not that many. The fact is, ALL ALARM companys should have to call Fire Control in this County for AUTOMATIC FIRE ALARMS that come in. Then you don't have to blame the PD.

"I have seen many dispatchers send PD, as the tones are being transmitted and they are on scene prior to the FD units signing on (even fully staffed career units) which leads to the inevitable arguments on who parks where. Some of us are beginning to wait for the FD to get a fighting chance then sending the PD for the support roles of traffic control and scene security".

It doen't matter who gets sent when. In my OPINION PD should get to the scene first especially in this COUNTY FULL OF VOLUNTEERS. And if the PD doesn't know where to park then shame on them if they get blocked in.

Bottom Line. If a call comes into your agency then Dispatch the appropriate units. That's it. I hate to admit that I do listen to a scanner at home. Am I a buff? Maybe a little. I just like knowing what is going on. Have I ever gone to a scene. NO. The other night at the Hawthorne Fire they came out of the woodwork. It was really annoying because they got in the way. Let me ask you a question. While half of an agency that isn't disptatched to a fire is at the fire and then a fire comes in in your town what do you do? I bet your Repsonse times will be longer.

[mlcougar2001 8]

You are missing my point. The point of the matter is not notifing the proper agency for the proper response to a call. If a FIRE ALARM comes in to a police agency that POLICE agency should dispatch there FIRE agency forthwith. Not send a cop to CHECK AND ADVISE and then notify. My issue is lack of notifying, not why are the police there. I agree with having the police there I DISAGREE with the lack of NOTIFICATION. I am not putting blame on anyone I am wondering why proper procedure isn't in place or not followed.

I can understand if the Police Dispatcher is busy do to heavy call volume for whatever reason. But if you are that busy why would you send an officer to Check And Advise a FIRE alarm. You have to understand my frustration and it shouldn't have happen for a house to burn down to realize that CHECK AND ADVISE is not proper procedure.

Edited April 29, 2007 by mlcougar2001

[Remember585 815]

DISCLAIMER - THIS TOPIC IS NOT DESIGNED TO START A FIGHT!

I knew everyone was going to start pointing fingers - but that won't accomplish anything.

Here's the gripe I have and I am not digging at Police Departments (I don't need the tickets...) or any other dispatch center.

A civilian calls 9-1-1. The PSAP answers it.

"9-1-1 What is your emergency?"

"I need an ambulance for my 85 year-old mother who is having a heart attack."

"OK m'am, what's the address?"

"123 XYZ Street."

"Ok, help is on the way."

The Desk Officer (or Dispatcher) then has to get EMS going and in most cases, PD unit(s). For this scenario, the PD in question dispatches everyone, Police, Fire & EMS, all of which operate on different radios.

WHAT SHOULD BE SENT FIRST?! To me, it is a no-brainer - send EMS, FD if local protocol then PD. WHY? EMS in many communities is not staffed and depends on personnel coming from home. Even those staffed around the clock should be sent first. A PD unit with an AED is great for a cardiac arrest, but what good is it at a nose bleed? I understand that some PD's have EMTs and that is Great! But if your PD units are on the road and ready to respond at a moment's notice, then they can be notified a minute later so you can dispatch the EMS units needed.

Oneeyed - I see it from your perspective too. I feel your frustration about going to the scene and waiting far too long for EMS to arrive. It is unacceptable and it seems like nothing or not enough is being done to address that. That isn't the point I am making in this thread. (Although this topic could go forever if anyone cares to start it).

Then, there's my favorite - the dispatching / delayed dispatching of FD.

I have heard (and seen, and been a part of) the "Morons with Blue Lights" crew. I get it that Cops hate sending Vol FDs to calls because of the show of stupidity that ensues in many cases. BUT - what is the excuse when Career FD Units aren't dispatched to calls. There is plenty of Career FFs on here that know what I am talking about. They sit in their stations and hear their PD's doing the ol' check and advise for smoke in the area. WHY?! This is the job of FD - paid or volunteer. If a PD unit arrives and finds, oh, I don't know, a building on fire, will your bullets extinguish it? I doubt it.

It would be like sending FD to handle a domestic or sending EMS to an armed robbery in progress. We all have jobs to do whether we are Fire, Police or EMS - and the ones dispatching us, even if it is ourselves, should send the APPROPRIATE HELP FIRST. In a perfect world calls for service would go to one answering point and routed / dispatched accordingly.

But that won't happen - not in our lifetimes!

[Remember585 815]

I forgot to mention too that for years I have felt that it isn't fair to keep one person to answer the phones and radios at a Police Station. The Desk Officers do a good job but too often and stretched beyond their capabilities. A PD Desk Officer should not have to listen to EMS and FD in addition to the Police duties they have. Car accidents are the best example. Anyone on here a PD Officer what works the desk? How often do you get a fairly bad wreck and find yourself unable to keep up with everything? Bottom line, you shouldn't have to.

[mlcougar2001 8]

"I have heard (and seen, and been a part of) the "Morons with Blue Lights" crew. I get it that Cops hate sending Vol FDs to calls because of the show of stupidity that ensues in many cases."

The PD should deal with the "Morons with Blue Lights" accordingly with the chiefs and with tickets. Everyone knows who drives what and who is driving like an idiot in there departments that should be handled in house, or the PD should pull them over and ticket or report them to the chief. Proper discipline will deter "Morons with Blue Lights", turning a blind eye is no reason not to dispatch the FD to an FD call.

"BUT - what is the excuse when Career FD Units aren't dispatched to calls. There is plenty of Career FFs on here that know what I am talking about. They sit in their stations and hear their PD's doing the ol' check and advise for smoke in the area. WHY?! This is the job of FD - paid or volunteer. If a PD unit arrives and finds, oh, I don't know, a building on fire, will your bullets extinguish it? I doubt it."

I listen to my scanner often and I hear many PD not dispatch career staff all the time. No excuse either way in my opinion. We shouldn't have to wait till the worst happens to address issues.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I get all your points. I am not a spring chicken when it comes to EMS and/or PD issues. Here it is. AN ALARM COMES INTO OUR DISPATCH for whatever address. We take the info. AS WE ARE DISPATCHING a PATROL UNIT WE ARE ALSO ON THE PHONE WITH FIRE CONTROL. Whatever happens after that happens. So at least at our agency most of the time it could be at the same time. Now it depends on how long it takes FIRE CONTROL to dispatch. And don't say that they are quick because I have listned and waited sometimes. That is not the PD fault. COPS will most likely always get to the scene first. And just so we are on the topic "it shouldn't have to take a house to burn down". How about somebody dying from a medical or trauma condition?

My issue about smoke in the area is this and just sending PD is wrong. But, toning out for a VOLLEY FD just to check for some some sounds stupid to me when I can do the same check faster and without bothering a neighborhood with lights and sirens. I know what you are going to say. What if there is a fire. Now you have to waste time dispatching the FD. Well what if there was not a fire? Now you just wasted everyone's time. I don't know the solution and I now that you all like to play with your BIG TRUCKS but come on. Paid guys should get sent on those runs though. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE GETTING PAID TO DO.

Here is the issue with BLUE/GREEN LIGHTS. I am not going to give you a ticket for responding to your BUILDING for a call with your lights on. IF YOU GO to the scene however I will make an issue of that. Too many times I have heard/seen what sounds like what I call a BullSh*t call. A crew can barely get out. All of a sudden it turns out to be let's just say a pin job. NOW I HAVE to deal with a million JOLLEY VOLLEYS on the side of the road screwing up my traffic pattern just because they didn't want to go to the BULLSH*T call. That shouldn't be.

Believe me. I say what is on my mind to people. I don't care if you are a CHIEF, COMMISH, LT, Whatever rank. If you are in the wrong I will let you know.

So in closing I guess you should address your dispatching issues with YOUR CHIEFS OF PD/FD/ Head of AMB and figure out how to fix the problem. I personally think that ALL EMS/FIRE IN THE COUNTY SHOULD BE dispatched from one center. E-911 comes to us "What is your EMERGENCY"? " I need an ambulance" Transfer the call. You can still listen in and get the address then send a patrol unit. There ya go. Time will still get wasted.

How about this. I don't live in a Paid FD area. I am fortunate enough to get a paid Medic but start writing down response times of PD/VOLLEY. Or VOLLEY/VOLLEY in some area's. The times are SICKENING how some agencies can't get out during the day and sometimes at night. You know where I am going with this so I will end it there.

Just one other thing. If I get sent to and AIDED for a NOSE BLEED, I know how to stop it. I can also spint and do many other things. COPS AREN"T ALL JUST POWER HUNGRY A**HOLES.LOL

[Remember585 815]

COPS AREN"T ALL JUST POWER HUNGRY A**HOLES.LOL

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You're right, some are just donut hungry. (Had to do it... no summonses please!)

Most of what you bring up - the issue with blue/green lights all over, responding "hot" to calls that may not be an emergency - these are internal issues that have to be remedied in house in each Department.

I admire most Police Departments because they respond to incidents all day long and never once turn on their lights & sirens. Some, and not enough, EMS agencies even have policies about no-lights responses. WE, meaning FD and EMS, have to police ourselves and respond accordingly to each and every call.

The reason for this topic is get opinions - not to start a war or to create an indifference. The bottom line is that FD should go to all calls of smoke, fire, odors of gas, gas leaks, extrications, etc. EMS should go to EMS calls and PD should go to whatever they want - just send the appropriate agency.

[Guest DFFD227]

For the police agency I work for its quite simple.

Any medical calls, whether it is E911 or comes in off the regular landline gets two patrol cars, an ALS medic, and an ambulance. The ambulance gets dispatched first. Immediately following the ambulance tones, the patrols gets dispatched. Assuming the call came in off 911, the call would be transfer over to the Greenburgh medic. Same goes with any type of MVA with injuries.

When it comes to fire in my village, coming off the landline, FD gets dispatched first, immediately followed by one or two patrol cars (depending on the nature). Automatic alarm gets one officer, anything with fire gets two officers. After the dispatch of FD personal, and it is a confirmed fire, my job is over, and 60 control takes over for all the resources. The only thing I can say is iffy, is outside smoke odors or conditions. Being that it is still that time of year where people have there fire places going, it seems crazy to send a full department response for something that you know, or most likely is a chimney. A company call, maybe, but definitely not a full department response for an outside odor.

As for the alarm companies calling in auto-fire alarms, or aided life-alerts, IMO, Those calls should go to the dispatch center of the agency being dispatched. I'm not sure how it is done, but by reading a few posts above, it sounds like the alarm companies call the police on a activated fire alarm, and the police have to call up County Fire Control and let them know. It would probably make more sense to have the alarm company call County directly, so the trained dispatcher can get the information needed directly from the source.

As for dispatching police, fire, and EMS, I enjoy it. - It can get very tricky, and sometimes very, very over whelming, but if you follow protocol, and use good judgment then the job could be done, and done right.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

"The reason for this topic is get opinions - not to start a war or to create an indifference. The bottom line is that FD should go to all calls of smoke, fire, odors of gas, gas leaks, extrications, etc. EMS should go to EMS calls and PD should go to whatever they want - just send the appropriate agency".

How come only FD does extrications? What if we have the tools to do the same and we are already on the road. I know that most PD's don't have that stuff but we do and we train in it so if I get there first I will already be working when you show up in your pickup. ZING You can take the other calls although I like structure fires. I especially like when you guys break sh*t that you don't need too. I also like watching you clean up. I LOVE MY JOB.

[Remember585 815]

How come only FD does extrications? What if we have the tools to do the same and we are already on the road. I know that most PD's don't have that stuff but we do and we train in it so if I get there first I will already be working when you show up in your pickup. ZING You can take the other calls although I like structure fires. I especially like when you guys break sh*t that you don't need too. I also like watching you clean up. I LOVE MY JOB.

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I guess I could of been a little more specific. Extrication calls shouldn't have FD there not to just do the "disentanglement," but anytime you are performing this activity a hose line should be stretched to protect everyone. And, being around as long as you have I am sure you can agree, it doesn't hurt to have more then one "tool" at a pin job.

*edited

Edited April 29, 2007 by Remember585

[Remember585 815]

DFFD (And oneeyed will probably agree...)

Alarm companies are awful! They not only call the wrong agency in town, they sometimes call the wrong towns! We get calls over here at my job for burglar alarms all the time and I am sure MPPD gets fire alarms that they shouldn't have to.

But, like the issue of EMS response times...a different topic for a different time.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I don't have time to read everyone's replies so I'm just gonna go with what I "think" being I beleive that's what you asked for 585.

EMS

1 BLS (or ALS) FR engine

1 ALS flycar or Ambulance

or 1 bls ambulance if ALS is flycar

Any type fire:

2 engines....truck...rescue

or 1 and 1 if you have a quint and proper staffing and rescue

MVA unknown injuries?

PD only.