Akron Brass Saberjet Nozzles

[sr71 1]

akron brass

these new nozzles look pretty usefull any depts out there use them ?

[IzzyEng4 427]

They have been around for a while. You need a lot of training on them to get used to them. Me personally I don't like them since its a combination of both and I found myself messing up on the bail for a fog stream and getting the smooth bore.

[Guest]

It's a bear. Tried one out a few years ago and it's huge and a pain.

[Jason762 2]

How about the fact that when using the fog setting at 100psi NP you only get 135 gpm. I'm not a fan of TFT's myself but at least you can get 180+gpm @ 100psi NP.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Jason762

[firemoose827 324]

I just used one sunday night for the first time at a structure fire in our neighbors district. They are a small dept with only about 12 active members and only 4 of them can pack up, yet they have these nozzles. Personaly, unless you have training on them and use them every day they are the worst nozzle I have ever seen. They are difficult to use if you have never used them, and when I opened it up it was set to a combination fog/smooth bore pattern. The guy in front of me wasnt happy!

[Guest]

We used to carry them on our trucks...but now we've gone to a Smooth Bore 15/16 and a TFT on the other crosslay

[sr71 1]

thanks for the info guys, i think we will just stick with our current cross-lay set up. which is 2 15/16 smooth bore's. and 1 tft

[Guest partyrock]

I believe w/ the assault tips the fog is removebale and leaves you with a smooth bore.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

That nozzle sucks. My personal experience with them is if you don't have a good training program...the same happens as mentioned. They pull the bale open and then want a slight fog for something, when the bale is closed the deer in headlights look as to why it won't shut off is priceless.

Second issue, is the overall weight of the nozzle. At the 50 psi nozzle pressure being it is intended to be flowed as a smoothbore, the hose doesn't get enough rigidity at that pressure and it wants to kink behind the nozzle.

Also with the model that is used in my area you only get 95 GPM with the fog at 50 psi nozzle pressure. Not that should be that much of an issue being smooth bore is the way to go #1 and #2 we shouldn't be using fog interiorly.

[John Meeker Jr 0]

I thinkn you need to qualify the statement about not using fog on the interior. There are lots of situations where a fog is preferable and a straight stream does not work. Try to hold a fire at a doorway with a strait stream or see how much water you waste on a car fire with a strait stream. Try to ventilate or cool with a strait stream.

Learn how and when to use both or you will be a danger to all when you go to protect your brothers and don't have a clue what to do with the TFT or Akron. If you use it then they become second nature, using once does not cut it. I learned on TFTs and thats all I ever used for 8 years. My current department loves strait bore but understands the idea of fog patterns and has now gone to the akron to try and get all the operating pressures to with in twenty psi. This is for the pump operator as well as the nozzle operator.

Train with it and you will understand the benifits.

[TimesUp 148]

these nozzles make a great door chock!

[antiquefirelt 994]

I thinkn you need to qualify the statement about not using fog on the interior. There are lots of situations where a fog is preferable and a straight stream does not work. Try to hold a fire at a doorway with a strait stream or see how much water you waste on a car fire with a strait stream. Try to ventilate or cool with a strait stream.

ALS is right. If you can't hold a fire with the straight stream is is highly unlikely a fog will do anyhting, in fact it will be worse given the same gmp flow. Fog streams get chewed up before they hit the seat of the fire when compared at the same gpm. And car fires? Same princliple, if you can't put it out with a SS then you're doing something wrong! Next you can do hydraulic ventialtion with a smoothbore, just partially close the bale and you'll get a broken stream. Not as effective as fog, but it works well in normal sized rooms.

Learn how and when to use both or you will be a danger to all when you go to protect your brothers and don't have a clue what to do with the TFT or Akron.  If you use it then they become second nature, using once does not cut it. I learned on TFTs and thats all I ever used for 8 years. My current department loves strait bore but understands the idea of fog patterns and has now gone to the akron to try and get all the operating pressures to with in twenty psi. This is for the pump operator as well as the nozzle operator.

Train with it and you will understand the benifits.

←

It looks like you should go back to school, as you haven't learned everything in eight years. Sadly smoothbores have lost favor in fire academy's due to 20 years of misuse of Layman's fog theories. It's not your fault that you're not as familiar with smoothbores, many places don't even flow a drop through them in a fire academy or at training. Can you use a fog on straight stream and put out fires? Of course, but forget that "safer" crap. Failure to understand firestreams is the true danger. Fog nozzles on straight stream work fine most of the time. Maybe not as well as smoothbores but well enough. The only time I really want a fog nozzle is when I want to move alot of air. Basically in a gas vapor cloud type of incident.

And IMO the Saberjets are junk designed to be sold to departments who don't have a good handle on flowing fire streams. I'd rather have two nozzles designed to do their fire streams than that mongoloid transformer thing.

[John Meeker Jr 0]

I never said I learned everything. I learned in a department that had all TFTs so that is what I learned on. My training has also shown me that if water is flowing away from the scene on the ground then it is not being fully utilized (wasted). A properly broken stream wastes less water but also delivers less when you really need it.

antiquefirelt you would obviously never pick up a fog nozzle intenionally and that is up to you, I prefer to keep an open mind. I expect to have to manage my water, not just apply it like it will never end so I would want to use the best tool for the situation.

[Guest partyrock]

If you can't hold a door with a 5 gallon can then you shouldn't have anything less than a smooth bore at your back. If you need to vent crack it and spin it. I promise, it works just fine.

[antiquefirelt 994]

antiquefirelt you would obviously never pick up a fog nozzle intenionally and that is up to you, I prefer to keep an open mind. I expect to have to manage my water, not just apply it like it will never end so I would want to use the best tool for the situation.

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I'm might been a little harsh in my criticism John, sorry. But I find todays fire academies and classes to lack the full understnding of nozzle and fire stream threory. Not only would I pick up a fog nozzle, but that is the predominant knob in my dept. due to years of training with them. We've at least "re-trained" all our firefighters to use it on straight stream only for interior fires. We are slowly switching to smoothbores as we can show our personnel they have nothing to fear. We do this by teaching them why they should fear the fog! For us the line is: "Right is Right! Left for Lobster!(steamed that is)

It's good to have an open mind and I would note that you might want to consider that many other fog nozzles are a bit "safer" than the TFT's. TFT's give you the false sense of flow with their automatic adjusting spring. It's nearly impossible to tell the difference between 85 gpm and 185. But as I said before, spin the dial to the right and forget it even moves and you'll put out lots of fire, as long as the MPO knows what to send it.

[John Meeker Jr 0]

I appreciate the reply. it tells me alot more about what and why.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Mr. Meeker...I just want to say first that my replies are not in any fashion intentially jabbing at you, they are overall comments in reply for all to read.

There are lots of situations where a fog is preferable and a straight stream does not work. Try to hold a fire at a doorway with a strait stream or see how much water you waste on a car fire with a strait stream. Try to ventilate or cool with a strait stream.

In a way this is correct...you can only get a "straight stream" from a combo fog nozzle. Smooth bore nozzles give you a "solid stream." A straight stream is nothing more then equally sized little droplets of water focused into a straight patterned stream. I for one rather have the solid stream.

Try to ventilate with a smooth bore. Not a problem. Anyone who operates with one knows that when you first open it up you get a pretty wide distribution of water. Might not be as efficient as using a fog nozzle to hydraulically ventilate but it works.

I don't know what "cool with a straight stream means" but if you're referring to safety and survival the switching to a fog to cool if flashover is imminent was discredited years ago. Again solid (or straight for those of you whom love them combo fog nozzles) is the best option at that point.

Try to hold a fire at a doorway with a strait stream or see how much water you waste on a car fire with a strait stream.

125 GPM is 125 GPM no matter what device it comes out. Either way with that P.O.S. Akron you're still only going to get 95 GPM if you pump it at the 50 psi the manufacturer states. As far as holding a fire at a door with a solid stream never had a problem with either nozzles. Short bursts of water or as party said, crack it whirl it close it.

My training has also shown me that if water is flowing away from the scene on the ground then it is not being fully utilized

My training and experience says we don't have to fight fair. I want to overwhelm any fire with GPM, anything else says I'm toying with it and I selected the wrong size line to overcome the BTU's. I also know that if I don't see water flowing from a building or room it could be collecting and contribute to a collapse hazard.

I as well as many teach "right to fight, left for lobster." This replaced the old "right to fight, left for life" acronym that again was found to be not as effective as once thought.

This conversation has already been around on here if the thread is still around. But I'll throw in master streams also. Why is it that there are some that still argue that fog nozzle master streams are still the way to go? To me they are good for 2 things...Mass decon and a slight fog to cool tanks when needed. Otherwise...give me the 20 less psi for nozzle pressure and a stream less effected by wind and with superior penetration.

I have used, pumped and operated several types of nozzles. One department I was a member of was all TFT's and had some break away's. I would say as more used smooth bore then fog portion was left at the front door or hallway 90% of the time. TFT's I'm not much of a fan of because most departments buy them and don't know their limitations or pump them at the right nozzle pressures for optimum use and flow. Throw in that they don't send them out to be calibrated is another issue. I also talked to a fire officer from a large department down south that had elaborated on that they had done testing on their TFT's and found that not a single one delivered the proper flow at the correct nozzle pressure. That was every single one of their nozzles and TFT quietly replaced all of them. I asked a TFT rep about this and he couldn't confirm and he also didn't deny. Then again if I was selling them I wouldn't either. As far as "train with it." I get to more then most...as an instructor a majority of classes I deliver involve lessons on nozzles, operation, maintenance, pumping, etc.

Anyone up for a convo on the vindicator? lol.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Anyone up for a convo on the vindicator?  lol.

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I've got one sitting in the corner of my office waiting for some more hands on! Our crews used it in one live fire training exercise in an aquired structure, bu the hay and pallets just didn't put up enough fight to make any conclusions. Anyone using them? All the tests and data looks good, but I haven't spoken to anyone who's used one long enoigh to have a solid opinion.

[Guest partyrock]

This link was given to me a few weeks ago, it is from the company website, but its pretty conslusive info. I haven't had a chance to use one yet, but it all sounds good. Thanks to the cost I see my job sticking to the smooth bore.

http://00691ee.netsolhost.com/Testimony/Fi...or%2520FDNY.pdf

Edited April 30, 2007 by partyrock

[Guest]

Anyone up for a convo on the vindicator?  lol.

←

Sure, whats the deal with them?

Mr. Meeker, water running away from the scene is a waste? I have yet to see a fire scene where there isn't any water run off. Bring BIG water! I have to go with ALS, who wants to fight fair?

Edited April 30, 2007 by lfdR1

[antiquefirelt 994]

This link was given to me a few weeks ago, it is from the company website, but its pretty conslusive info.  I haven't had a chance to use one yet, but it all sounds good.  Thanks to the cost I see my job sticking to the smooth bore.

http://00691ee.netsolhost.com/Testimony/Fi...or%2520FDNY.pdf

←

This was one of the reports we read before deciding to give the Vindicator a whirl. Another great report on the same site is the Montgomery County MD report which has the added bonus of a great 1.75" evaluation report. Excellant test methods and information when deciding what hose to purchase. I don't know if their still doing it, but the Vindicator's makers would send out their trainer(s) to your dept. to spend a day working with the nozzles and using flowmeters to show your friction loss currently vs. with "other" hose and using the Vindicator. We didn't opt to do this for some reason that escapes me now.

lfdR1: The Vindicator is basically a non-adjustable broken stream nozzle, that is designed to minimize reaction force and maximize flow at low nozzle pressure. The stream has larger droplets than fog, but is broken. The reaction force of the nozzle is less than fog or smoothbore at the same flow. You can flow much greater gpm with a higher nozzle pressure at the same reaction force. This gives the Vindicator a better range of flows while maintaining a decent stream. While you can do the same thing with a SB the stream tends to feather a bit much over 75 psi nozzle pressure.

Here's the basic site link: http://00691ee.netsolhost.com/index.htm

The great thing about the smoothbore is the simplicity. And while the Vindicator has the same basic number of moving parts it has the ability to get plugged up more readily than a SB but not as bad as a fog nozzle. For the most part I can live with any nozzle as long as its not an automatic! I'd take a fixed gallonage over the adjustable but just don't give me the automatic. While I trust my pump operators, I like the nozzleman and Co. to know they have a decent fire stream (GPM) when attacking a fire, and not have to rely on the pump operator to get it right.

Edited April 30, 2007 by antiquefirelt

[Guest]

Thanks antiquefirelt. That raises a question though, for those who've given it a try:

I've found that any broken stream nozzle results in a greater amount of steam. How did this one fair with regard to steam?

The test results are interesting and they seem to favor the Vindicator, but you can't help feeling that "Keep It Simple" is the way to go, however I've never used this one so I have no REAL frame of reference.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Again, I have no first hand knowledge of the interior using the Vindicator yet. I know the size of the droplets is the main point they make on why the stream doesn't convert to as much steam as a fog. The larger droplets increase heat absorbtion at the seat as they make it to the seat vs. smothering the fire with steam like fog.

On the Vindicator Heavy Attack model we have: The water passes through the quarter turn ball valve and goes straight into a cone that points back toward the valve. (I think this is the reason or action that reduces the reaction force.) As water passes the cone its forced through an orifice then into the body of the nozzle (a 10" long tube about 3" in diameter) where there's three vanes. At the base of the tube there are many holes that draw air I guess with a Venturi type action and said air is entrained into the firestream but again with larger droplets than with fog.

I suspect that the conversion from Fog to Vindicator would likely be much more pronounced than switching from smootbores over to the V. Now I need a few day to take the guys out and play with this thing!

Edited April 30, 2007 by antiquefirelt

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I also have only gotten to play with the vindicator during demo's or during pump training. All I can say is that at a Baltimore show a few years ago they had a 10 year old holding the nozzle on his own and I was able to advance an 1 3/4" myself one handed. I know over the years firehouse.com forums has had many who used them in their department and liked them.

I'm just glad someone pays attention to my posts and saw what I put and its taken off. Should we make a seperate thread? Let me know and I'll switch the last few posts over.

[Larryalb 0]

I usually just read, but this subject is very dear to me. I have had many discussuons on this. I think we all need to go back to basics and look at what we are trying to do. I am an avocated of the fog nozzle and I will try to give the facts why. To begin with there is a place for the solid stream nozzle, but not on the attach line. I will try to list the reasons below to go with a fog nozzle.

1) using a solid stream nozzle only, you have told me I'm too stupid to know when to use a fog pattern or straight stream

2) You have taken away my fog pattern protection (good example look at the propane xmas tree evolution) you only die once

3) Most of our fires are room and contents. (How big are these spaces normally)use the fire formular to know how much water you need.

4) How much wet stuff do you need to put the red stuff out.

5) Too many of us take someones word, that what they are stating is correct. use your own head and look at all the facts when making a dissision, not just what some one told you, they may not give or know all the information, ask questions.

6) One way, I explain when to use, fog or straight stream is ( if it is not vented or you don't know, use the straight stream on the ceiling etc. If it is vented use the fog stream)

7) high rise fires need lower pressures, because the higher pressure may not be available. Fog nozzles are being designed to take the lower presure into account (remember the wet stuff puts out the red stuff)

8) I'm not sure how long ago, either at Montour Falls or Emmittsburg, task force tips put on a class on the use of fog nozzles. One thing that was pointed out was about 14 to 18 inches away from the nozzle, in a straight stream application, the stream is no longer hollow, but solid with air bubbles. This does the same job as the solid stream.

9) again how big is the space you are entering, you can reach the other side normally. will you reach the other side or not, do the math.

10 ) when you open the fire apartment, whether high rise or low rise what is the wind a factor. ( is the blown out window a picture window (40 square feet) and the door being opened a foot is only (7 square feet). this causes a blow torch effect. PROTECTION PROTECTION PROTECTION what will you do.

11) you hear penitration and evaporation, thats where your training comes into play. Remember we are all profressionals and trained. If you don't know find out you only live once. don't beleive everything your told, try it out or look it up. the facts

I could go on, but I read this yesterday and couldn't sleep without putting in my 2 cents. Behind the fire house or drill school, open a fog nozzle in the straight stream and look at the pattern, what happens to the stream and how far will it reach. how much water will it deliver. this is something you can do and prove to yourself, don't beleive every thing your told. don't be lazy, its your life not someone elses. One case, I know a firefighter died because of protection (ie water) there were other things done wrong also, this is not the place for it, read the secret list. you will get alot of info re fire streams from that also.

Have a good day

[antiquefirelt 994]

OK I'll bite ona few of these. I'm not trying to insult you or anyone, but there is a huge discrepancy in our ways of thinking. Again, I'd note that firefighters use both types of nozzles with great success every day. I just hate to see the false sense of security fog nozzle give to many who don't understnd their limitations. Your experience seems to have been positive and I assume fairly busy.

1) using a solid stream nozzle only, you have told me I'm too stupid to know when to use a fog pattern or straight stream

Some people have not been taught properly as the instructors also have been poorly trained. Layman's theories were poorly interpreted for us and turned into the gospel for interior compartment firefighting when he clearly states in his tactics that it should not be used where there are vicims or when you'll be in the space. The mass murder on 9-11 took away one of the great myth busters on this topic: Andy Fredricks.

2) You have taken away my fog pattern protection (good example look at the propane xmas tree evolution) you only die once

Where is the protection? Yes, in gas fueled fires you need t move air, but let's talk interior as that's really the issue here. Second point I'd give you is the highrise blowtorch effect. Something I do not have to worry about to much, but we do have some significant winds at times. But at that point you're just pushing air against air, and how can you be sure the nozzle is enough? I guess it's better than nothing. Conversly, have a false stream (automatic nozzle underpumped) is a daily occurence. Not taking enough GPM to the fight is quite dangerous itself. A few kinks that get missed and your stream still looks great! With a SB, you know what you have when it leaves the butt.

On the X-mas tree. Try this: stand off to the side and watch as the nozzle gets close to the fire. A low pressure area is created just in front of the tip, resulting in fire being DRAWN to the nozzle not pushed away. And then dip the nozzle just little bit and watch the fire be drawn over the top by the firefighters head. The serious air flow into the back of the fog pattern will pull air, smoke, heat and fire over, under and around the pattern if it finds an area to get by!

3) Most of our fires are room and contents. (How big are these spaces normally)use the fire formular to know how much water you need.

4) How much wet stuff do you need to put the red stuff out.

Looks good in the classroom but in the street it seems we pull one of two available lines and pump them as usual not to just meet the needs. I'd rather take to much firepower and be done quicker than realize too late we didn't have enough GPM.

5) Too many of us take someones word, that what they are stating is correct. use your own head and look at all the facts when making a dissision, not just what some one told you, they may not give or know all the information, ask questions. 

Truer words may not have been spoken. We all tend to pass stuff off as the gospel. Thankfully firefighters tend to have good BS mteres so they need to be shown when things sound hokey. But, I truly believe we've been training using misunderstood concepts and theories for years and the recovery is slow. Many fog myths have been proven wrong in thelast few years. Good work has been done at Rockland Co. Fire Academy in the last few years doing "real world" applications and tests. Not just fire simulation computer models.

6) One way, I explain when to use, fog or straight stream is ( if it is not vented or you don't know, use the straight stream on the ceiling etc. If it is vented use the fog stream)

This is exactly the opposite of the true fog theory. Fog was meant to be used to convert ot steam in a closed compartment. You have to have written off any victims and you don't want to be in there! This was adapted from shipboard firefighting where you cannot vent the space. Now we introduce the 1.5" line that had a 95 gpm nozzle usually flowing more like 60 gpm and yes, we had to push teh fire out of the room through the open window! That was because we used the air to move the fire and heat out rather than overcome the BTU's with the GPM. Today we understand better critical flow rates and take the proper gpm to kill the fire at the seat. This is another reason people keep talking about attacking from the unburned side still, when they should be taking the line through the front door in residential homes.

7) high rise fires need  lower pressures,  because the higher pressure may not be available. Fog nozzles are being designed to take the lower presure into account (remember the wet stuff puts out the red stuff)

Just an expensive tool used by the fog nozzle manufacturers to stay in the marketplace when FD's slowly start to realize that the cheaper SB's are better. How much air is moving with a low pressure fog? Is this safe for combating the blowtorch effect? I don't know, but I'm interested to see what has been done to research this.

8) I'm not sure how long ago, either at Montour Falls or Emmittsburg, task force tips put on a class on the use of fog nozzles. One thing that was pointed out was about 14 to 18 inches away from the nozzle, in a straight stream application, the stream is no longer hollow, but solid with air bubbles. This does the same job as the solid stream.

Read Dave Fornell's Fire Stream management handbook or look at the Rockland Co. FA's tet results. Given the same flow from a fog on SS and a SB the amount of water on the target is quite different.

9) again how big is the space you are entering, you can reach the other side normally. will you reach the other side or not, do the math..

?????

10 ) when you open the fire apartment, whether high rise or low rise what is the wind a factor. ( is the blown out window a picture window (40 square feet) and the door being opened a foot is only (7 square feet). this causes a blow torch effect. PROTECTION PROTECTION PROTECTION what will you do.

11) you hear penitration and evaporation, thats where your training comes into play. Remember we are all profressionals and trained. If you don't know find out you only live once. don't beleive everything your told, try it out or look it up. the facts

←

Getting drag into shift training on WMD's I'll have to finish later.

Thanks! This is a great debate.

[Larryalb 0]

I think my point was not made. anyone that doesn't use the proper flow should be shot. You need the proper amount of water where you need it. The proper training was and is not being given with the fog nozzle and whether it is high rise or low rise a fire is fire and you should attach it properly. The myth that the solid stream put more water on the fire is BS if the MPO, the officer, and the firefighter is doing their job properly we would not be having 90% of the LODD and accidents we have had.

Re the expensive tool If the standpipe system and the back up pressures are correctly administered you wouldn't need the newer nozzles. I believe the lower pressure nozzles are being used to makeup for the lack of training and understanding we have gotten. and maybe the lack of discipline or being corrected when we screw up may also be the problem.

As you can see I feel strongly on this matter and have done quite a bit of research and training on the subject I don't plan on trying to teach a course on line etc. and I do appreciate the difference of opinion but just I don't agree with it.

Have a nice day

[antiquefirelt 994]

I think my point was not made. anyone that doesn't use the proper flow should be shot. You need the proper amoun t of water where you need it. The proper training was and is not being given with the fog nozzle and whether it is high rise or low rise a fire is fire and you should attach it properly. The myth that the solid stream put more water on the fire is BS if the MPO, the officer, and the firefighter is doing thier job prperly we would not be having 90% of the LLOD and accidents we have had.

Re the expensive tool If the standpipe system and the back up pressures are correctly adminstered you wouldn't need the newer nozzles. I believe the lower pressure nozzles are being used to makeup for the lack of training and understanding we have gotten. and maybe the lack of disapline or being corrected when we screw up may also be the problem.

As you can see I feel strongly on this matter and have done quite a bit of research and training on the subject I don't plan on trying to teach a course on line etc. and I do appreciate the difference of opinion but just I don't aggree with it.

Have a nice day

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Your comments are well taken and I agree wholeheartedly with the overall lack of knowledge and training. We like many others won't agree on the final choice and that's fine as this debate will rage on long after us I think. What we both agree on is the need for firefighters, fire officers and MPO's to understand their jobs and tools fully. This knowledge alone is the bigget safety factor we can affect!!!

[Guest partyrock]

I hate to alwyas reference how things are done on my job, but thats what I know, so here goes. It was explained to me that the most common maydays we get are due to collapse (floor or celing) and highrise blowtorch. Only two things work to stop it. Window blankets and water. There is no way to push enough air through a line or stream to counter the 2' x 4' or greater opening that a 20+ mph wind is pushing through. Set up all the fans in the world, god will always have more volume than you can create on the fireground.

Antique has said about everything I would say. I just want to add 2 things. If you really want to see the difference in hose streams go into a flashover simmulator and try them out. The wide fog makes it painfully obvious what can go wrong, but there is still an appreciable difference between smooth bore and straight stream.

Second, fog does not provide protection. It pulls air into the fire, can pull fire past the stream, and makes the environment completely untennable to the victims and rescuers.

[firemoose827 324]

I am glad to see so much discussion from the experienced members about this topic. I have learned a lot and respect all of your wisdom and experience. Great Thread!!!

I agree with what has been said about training also. It all boils down to lack of training, both initial and continued/refresher. FF's are getting on the knob and not realizing how much water theyre using, if they are "pushing" the fire into the house or not, ect ect. MPO's are just turning the pump on and pushing water. They dont use the formulas, ( atleast the basics anyway) or take into effect the friction loss or type of nozzle being used. Heck, some depts have 3 or 4 different types of nozzle on one truck! Is that smart?

TRAINING is the key but unfortunately, not as many of us believe in this as much as they used to. Ive heard guys say that the four years they spent in the Explorer program was enough training, and they dont NEED any more!! I stay away from them at fire scenes.

Great Thread!! Hopefully everyone is learning a lot from this. Stay Safe.