DOJ to sue FDNY

[Guest]

This from CBS yesterday:

NEW YORK CBS 2 has learned exclusively that a federal investigation into the hiring practices of the FDNY was issued and concluded that the FDNY's policies discriminate against minorities. As a result, the Department of Justice has notified the FDNY of its plans to file a lawsuit.

The lawsuit would come right in the middle of what the FDNY considers its best campaign to attract minorities to the job. Sources tell CBS 2 that federal officials have given the department notice to prepare to be sued.

That the issue at hand, sources say, is over testing. The FDNY currently hires firefighters from a civil service list on which applicants are ranked based on a combination of their scores on written and physical tests. The major barrier to entry for most minorities has been the written examination.

Captain Paul Washington is the past president of the Vulcan Society, a group that brought a lawsuit against the FDNY five years ago. That lawsuit was the basis of the current federal investigation.

"The fire department will be getting what it deserves for not having acted on their own. They have had more than enough opportunity," Washington told CBS 2.

"The guy who gets the 99 or 100 on a test isn't going to be any better than the guy who gets the 80 or 75. The fire department knows that, the mayor's office knows that, everybody does," Washington adds. "They should not use that test as a barometer on who's going to get on the job or not."

As an example, the test given to applicants in 1999 showed that African Americans accounted for only 10 percent of test-takers and 7 percent of test-passers, compared to whites, who were 75 percent of test-takers and 78 percent of test-passers.

Of the FDNY's 11,600 uniformed members, there are about 620 Hispanics (5.4 percent) and about 330 blacks (fewer than 3 percent). The department has 30 women members and about 70 Asians.

CBS 2 compared those numbers with other cities. Over 50 percent of firefighters in Los Angeles are minorities, compared to 40 percent in Boston, 31 percent in Baltimore, and 23 percent in Chicago.

"It's going to take more than just a Band-Aid type of solution," Washington said. "It's going to take more than just a few posters, a few more dollars in recruitment, it's going to take a holistic effort to get this situation solved."

CBS 2 received a copy of a letter the city sent to the Department of Justice calling the civil rights suit against the city "unwarranted." In a statement to CBS 2, the city's top lawyer said the lawsuit "will not result in increased diversity in the FDNY, but, unfortunately, will only result in a waste of government resources on unnecessary litigation

Well, a warm thanks to Paul Washington for his sick reverse racist bu11 sh1t

[Guest]

OH GOD

[BIGRED1 71]

OH CRY ME A RIVER!! Hey rocket scientist, it's a voluntary test. you CHOOSE to take it. If blacks, Asians, or Women don't want to take the test, well thats the way it is. DEAL WITH IT!! If this jacka$$ wants to have the problem fixed just take off the race and gender option from the test. just have people answer the questions and take the physical and leave it at that.

[Guest]

Let me start off by stating I am not racist and do not want what I am going to say be interpreted as racism.

This is ridiculous. Obviously the low numbers of minorities come from the low number of minorities taking the test. The article even shows that. How do they want the department to hire an increased number of minorities if they are simply not taking the test? I can not be sure of this but will assume that if you were to disaggregate the scores you would see that if X percent of test takers are minority then X percent of them get hired. I would be willing to assume, that the number that get hired is proportional to the number that take the test. The reason why most of the force is white is because whites make up the majority of the test takers. I have been away at college but when I was home before this test I saw commercials encouraging people to take the test. What more do they want the city to do, go out in to predominantly minority areas and force people to sign up for the test. Maybe these people just do not want the job.

The fire service has always been a predominantly white job. Wrong or right that is the fact. Look at the history of any department and most of the member’s career or volunteer tend to be white. Do I know why, no? Does anyone know why I doubt it, because if they did the fire departments would be using that information to target minorities?

Hasn't the city done enough to try to attract minorities? They opened up the filing period for longer periods of time, they ran an add campaigns, and in my opinion they dumbed down the test to the point that you don’t need to have any real knowledge. All you needed to pass that test was common sense and hope that your opinion matched that of the test makers. The hardest question on that last test was how much hose do you need to get to the 3rd floor or something like that. I am not saying I did amazing on that test, in fact I did not break a 90, but it was because the way that I deal with a situation was slightly different from the way the test creator would deal with the situation. I said agree and the answer would be highly agree, what is the difference between the two.

What will this lawsuit bring to the department other than time and money wasted. That money could be going to train personnel, or even on a bigger ad campaign and a bigger push to attract minorities for the next test. But no, that money now gets to be put towards defending themselves in court, instead of being used in a wise manner. Is this court case going to lead to the FDNY hiring 200 minorities for the next class? I highly doubt it.

Just a couple weeks ago, didn’t SFRD's hiring practice come under fire because they DID NOT hire in sequential order off of the list. Now FDNY is coming under fire for hiring right off the list in sequential order. What do they want? Should the testing be discarded and hire whoever applies for the job? No, that would be very unfair. In my opinion using a list to hire people is on e of the fairest way to appoint a job.

Standardized testing is a fair and non discriminatory way to access large numbers of people at one time. That is a fact and if you don’t believe me then come on down to Bucknell and I will let you read my education textbook. That is why standardized testing is used in schools around the country and is one of the key aspects of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, which is centered around high stakes testing. In this case it is important to realize it is fair and easy way to test large numbers of people. When you have 30,000 applicants there really is no other way to fairly access each applicant.

This is just another form of reverse racism if you ask me.

Sorry for the rant, and all those who have read down to here thank you for listening to my opinion.

Edited April 24, 2007 by eng158

[Guest]

I'm having a hard time understanding how the DOJ is attributing low minority attendance at the written examination to unfair hiring practices. It appears to me, granted i don't know the whole story here, that just about anyone that wants to take the test can - the registration material is easy to come by, and as long as you can pay the filing fee and have a legal address there is no reason why you couldn't show up at the test, unless it was on your own accord. Seems a bit frivolous if you ask me. Sorry to see that the FDNY will be "taking one for the team," hopefully there will be a quick resolution to this.

[INIT915 1,119]

In an unrelated story, the US Dept of Justice is filing similar lawsuits against the National Hockey League, citing the historically low numbers of minority hockey players.

[Guest partyrock]

This suit is based on the 1998 and 2002 tests. The city made little in any effort to rcruit anyone until recently. FDNY has tradionally been a hand me down career. Few people outside the fire service really knew about the tests. You either did it because a family member, family friend, or fellow volley was on the job. About 10 years ago people complained. Thats when the city first started actively recruiting anyone. This previous test was the first time the city made a real effort to diversify its work force.

[Guest]

gee how did I get on this job then? I didn't have any "pop-time" and no recruitment van pulled up in front of my playground...I'm pissed Goldman Sachs never recruited me...bullsh*t

[bifd09 0]

curious statistics. the more interesting questions are:

what percent of the city population is african-american vs. percent of african americans taking the test?

what are the similar comparisons in los angeles and the other cities with higher minority employment rates?

what factor(s) might account for the (slight) disparities between percentage taking the test vs. percentage passing - educational background, peer study groups, family members or friends in the dept who might act as coaches, etc... or anything more nefarious?

how do recruitment practices differ amongst departments with differing minority membership rates?

remember that racism is not always intentional but sometimes happens despite the best efforts of all to prevent it; much of it is imbedded in our culture, and takes time to change. sometimes a lawsuit is the impetus for that change.

[27east 19]

NYC is roughly 25% black.

[fjp326 42]

Bottom line here is if you want something you need to earn it. You should not be handed a position because of your race, color or religion. Especially if that position puts peoples lives in your hands. This kind of crap is all you here about today. They want standards lowered and tests made easier in order to get more minorities on the job. As if there is not enough problems already they want to hand jobs to people who can't pass the basic entry exams. What a joke. These days they do all but take the tests for some people. If you want these jobs the system is fair, study, train, and become a resident. If that doesn't work you need to find another career, these jobs are not for everyone.

[210 91]

Affirmative Action flashbacks.

[Guest partyrock]

gee how did I get on this job then? I didn't have any "pop-time" and no recruitment van pulled up in front of my playground...I'm pissed Goldman Sachs never recruited me...bullsh*t

←

Then how did you hear about the job?

This is another story that the press constantly f-ing twists around and screws up because its harder to get it right.

The city is not being sued becasue of its testing and training procdures. The changes this year to the exam and academy are designed to address a different set of issues within the dept.

The city is being sued because of the lack of an effort made to recruit minorities. There are no calls to give away the job or make it easier for minorities (yet).

[Guest]

Question. Few months back i recall hearing the FDNY "lowered their standards" IE: you can replace college credits with 2 years work experience and a few other points. Was this an effort to encourage minorities or was this to address an departmental issue?

[Guest partyrock]

Depends on who you ask. The requirement change should benefit minorities. The test, who knows who that thing helped. The agility changes actually hurt minorities. They usually made up points there. The argument as I understand it, is that since the education requirment was implemented the dept has had no apreciable improvemnet in its candidates.

The depts stance is that it wants people they can mold into the firefighter they need to do the job. If your weak or under educated they'll have 6 months to fix that. They can't fix strong morals or common sense.

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edited at 2am 4/25

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Turns out alot of what I was saying before was wrong. I was just looking at a summary of the vulcans suit.

The suit is only about the '98 and '02 tests, but they're trying to say the whole testing process is flawed and biased. The depts postion is that its a recruiting issue and it has been adressed. The vulcans are insane. I understand their position and what they're here for but this crap has to stop. They are getting the numbers signing up for the test and things will change, but they don't change over night. well thats it for thisi rant I'm off to an AFA.

Edited April 25, 2007 by partyrock

[Guest]

how did I hear about the job...the same way most people hear about a job...I graduated college, looked for other jobs and simultaneously said to myself,"I wonder how you become a NYC firemen...sadly I will admit that this was post 9/11 so curiousity of the FDNY was rampant...looked it up, got the info, studied, took the test, worked out, took the test, worked out, went through the academy etc..probably the same way most guys got on this job...I wanted it, it wasn't pitched to me...and quite frankly its not pitched to anyone in westchester or LI

[Guest]

I remember seeing those silly "Heroes Wanted" signes on EVERY firehosue in the city. There were ads online in 2002 for the test and notices put in the paper. How much more do they excpect to do? This is all a bunch of B.S. thrown at the dept. by people who are too lazy and in the end clearly don't want to job because they never looked for it.

What, someone is going to see a recruitment poster and suddenly say, " I REALLY WANT TO BE A FIREMAN"? No, I don't think so.

[efd184 59]

next test will be an open book exam!

[Guest]

next test will be an open book exam!

←

You have a good point efd, but people will still complain even if it is open book exam. People would still complain if there was no test and FDNY hired everyone that wanted the job.

You just cant please everyone one even if you are hiring people in a very fair and balanced way. The civil service test is a standardized test that is given to everyone at the same time, in the same fashion with the same question and looks at the results to show what you know and measure your intelligence or personality in the case of the last exam. It does not look at skin color or gender it looks at you in a very unbiased way. It is the only way to access over 30,000 applicants in a fair and timely manor. No one has an advantage in taking the test except for those that have put in the time and effort to study and work to do well. Even then it can only do so much, which can be seen in this last test. Everyone starts at the same point and is given the same opportunity to do well as the guy or girl next to you. It is what you use that will distinguish you from the rest of the pact. Those that went to the study sessions and went through the practice exam used their recourses to the best of their ability. Any one can go to these things or acquire the packets, it does not matter if you are black or white, male or female, because the test does not take these things into account.

Edited for the second time now.

Mac you bring up a good point as well. Why is the FDNY lowering their standards? If anything they should be raising them. When you have 30,000 showing up to take the test why lower the standards when they could be raised. Why go from requiring 15 credits to none, they should be raising the bar. Yes you won’t be getting 30,000 to take the test but by requiring a year or 2 of college you are getting more intelligent and better prepared people. When people go to college they have a desire to learn more and the ability to learn. In my opinion that is a good quality to have if you are a firefighter when things are always changing and new technology is coming out. I don’t think requiring college credits will reduce the number of test takers too dramatically either, so you go from 30,000 down to 20,000 you still would have a large applicant pool to choose from that will allow you to pick those best suited for the job. It is a simple way to weed out people. Especially in today’s world where firefighting is becoming much more advanced. Some one once told me that "the days of the dumb knuckle dragging firefighter ended in the 70's when they banned drinking in the firehouse." I am not tiring to say those that don’t have a college degree are dumb, in fact some of the smartest people I know don’t have a college degree. Some of the best firefighters I know don’t have a degree either, but if you want the job bad enough you will do what has to be done to get those credits and meet the requirements.

Edited April 25, 2007 by eng158

[Mac8146 61]

Tired of all this crap about the need to have minorities in FDNY, we are not a closed union shop, the City announces tests in advance and now does heavy recruiting. The FDNY does not even administer this test it is done by DCAS a city agency . The list is made by them and turned over to FDNY to hire from. There may be some imput on questions and such but FDNY does not pick and choose who takes the test. As far as standards being lowered now this is also crap. When I took test all you needed for appointment was a high school diploma, nothing else. Over time requirements were changed for college but there are many of us left who only need high school at the time. The college issue is another post to be discussed if needed. It is a shame for the people of NYC that the federal govt or any agency would lower standards to have a sub par FDNY to perform all that it does in NYC. We do not discriminate or do any less for race,creed or color we just do our job.

[Guest]

I think we should have a big game of duck duck goose to see who gets on.

We could circle Manhattan and sing Kum by Ya at the same time.

Although....plenty of opportunity for racism there......

[efd184 59]

did minorities have to pay the test taking fee on the last exam?

[Guest]

In theory, but that's easy to waive.

[jd783 64]

We do not discriminate or do any less for race,creed or color we just do our job.

I feel the same way we go out the door every tour and respond without prejudice every day why not test the same way. The public we serve only cares that we respond and help out. This CREATES racism on the job we are equal in the firehouse and count on each other If I need water, the building stuck or a FAST team I don't give a crap what color they are just that they do their job, anyone given anyting in life will not appreciate it

Edited April 25, 2007 by jd783

[JM15 386]

From Firehouse.com

FDNY Commissioner Fires Back at Discrimination Lawsuit

With enough heat to start a fire, Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta Tuesday denounced a federal lawsuit charging his department with discriminatory hiring practices. Scoppetta says the FDNY has been working hard to diversify its ranks -- and says a lawsuit is a waste of time.

"These kinds of litigations are usually brought to compel a government agency to do something," said Scoppetta. "I don't know what a judge would do here. Would he order us to do what we're already doing? Because what was needed is what we're doing."

Scoppetta points to the FDNY's $1.5 million investment to attract a diverse group of applicants to sit for its most recent exam back in January. More than 30,000 people showed up for the test, nearly 40 percent were minorities.

Scoppetta says that should have an impact on a nearly 12,000 member department that has fewer than 400 blacks, some 600 Latinos, and 30 women.

"The classes, as we've been running them in the last five years, have resulted in three times the number of minorities hired as happened in the ten years prior to this administration," said the commissioner.

The Vulcan Society of black firefighters first sued the department five years ago. Two years ago, the federal government launched its own investigation, culminating in a finding by the Federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that the FDNY entrance exam is unfair to minorities.

"There is no indication that the skills needed to perform well on the written test are in any way related to the job skills needed to perform well as a firefighter," said the commission in a statement.

The Vulcans say changing the test is an easy place to start.

"We have strategies that can assist them in diversify their ranks," said John Coombs of the Vulcan Society. "What they need to do is listen to us."

But the fire commissioner defended the written exam, saying the test is not the problem.

"This is essentially a kind of aptitude test, a kind of intelligence test," said Scoppetta. "Can you understand the problems that are being presented to you? Do you show reasonably good judgment in responding? That's what any standardized test does."

In a letter sent to the Justice Department and the U.S. Attorney in New York, the Bloomberg administration's top lawyer Michael Cardozo said the lawsuit is based on old data. He asked them to reconsider the lawsuit, calling it "an unwarranted abuse of your discretion and wasteful of federal and local government expense."

[AFS1970 504]

I have always wondered how anyone can say that any Fire Department, especially FDNY fails to recruit. Every piece of fire apparatus that drives down the street is a recruitment poster, every neighborhood firehouse is a recruiting station. Since New York City has more of these than anywhere else, it seems to me that no one can claim ignorance of the fact that the city regularly tests for and hires Firefighters. Lawsuits like this just do not make any sense.

[Guest]

Tired of all this crap about the need to have minorities in FDNY, we are not a closed union shop, the City announces tests in advance and now does heavy recruiting. The FDNY does not even administer this test it is done by DCAS a city agency . The list is made by them and turned over to FDNY to hire from. There may be some imput on questions and such but FDNY does not pick and choose who takes the test. As far as standards being lowered now this is also crap. When I took test all you needed for appointment was a high school diploma, nothing else. Over time requirements were changed for college but there are many of u sleft who only need high school at the time. The college issue is another post to be discussed if needed. It is a shame for the people of NYC that the federal govt or any agency would lower standards to have a subpar FDNY to perform all that it does in NYC. We do not discriminate or do any less for race,creed or color we just do our job.

←

Realistically though, why the requirement for college credits? I mean... let's face it, firefighting is *not* rocket science. The average firefighter performs a labor intensive, physical job that involves hand-on use of tools. I get reports from several FDNY members of book smart hirees with no street sense, and an inability to perform mechanical tasks.

A good firefighter must be smart, and on the ball, but going to college is no guarantee of that result.

A good firefighter must be able to improvise, adapt, and overcome.

I think it would make more sense to require mechanical aptitude testing, or vocational education before requiring college credits.

[Guest]

Tired of all this crap about the need to have minorities in FDNY, we are not a closed union shop, the City announces tests in advance and now does heavy recruiting. The FDNY does not even administer this test it is done by DCAS a city agency . The list is made by them and turned over to FDNY to hire from. There may be some input on questions and such but FDNY does not pick and choose who takes the test. As far as standards being lowered now this is also crap. When I took test all you needed for appointment was a high school diploma, nothing else. Over time requirements were changed for college but there are many of us left who only need high school at the time. The college issue is another post to be discussed if needed. It is a shame for the people of NYC that the federal govt or any agency would lower standards to have a subpar FDNY to perform all that it does in NYC. We do not discriminate or do any less for race,creed or color we just do our job.

←

I agree, when I took the test you only needed a high school degree or GED. The only extra credit you got was from certain military time. Today you get time for college degrees, residency and whatever else which, in my opinion, is an insult to the people who served this country. You did your time you should get the extra 5 or 10 points. I was on the job when the females had the lawsuit and won. That was a major mistake. It screwed up moral and, again my opinion, made it harder for any future females who did make the job. I have always said and will continue to say that everyone takes one test, takes one agility test and get on one list. If you can get appointed in order of the list and you can make it through probie school then you should be given the same shot as everyone else. I don't care what color, race, or creed you are. As long as you can do the job and be able to cover my butt when it hits the fan.

About the same time I took the FD test I also took the NYS State Trooper test. From that test they came out with three lists. One for white males, one for females and one for minorities. There was a female in college with me who also took the test and her average was 10 points less then mine. She was number 50 on her list and I was in the 1700 area. As they hired they hired one from each list until they filled the class. Did this make for a better officer on the street?

[Guest]

Realistically though, why the requirement for college credits? I mean... let's face it, firefighting is *not* rocket science. The average firefighter performs a labor intensive, physical job that involves hand-on use of tools. I get reports from several FDNY members of book smart hirees with no street sense, and an inability to perform mechanical tasks.

A good firefighter must be smart, and on the ball, but going to college is no guarantee of that result.

A good firefighter must be able to improvise, adapt, and overcome.

I think it would make more sense to require mechanical aptitude testing, or vocational education before requiring college credits.

←

Do you NEED college credits? No. However, when you are blindly testing 30,000 people for a job, you need any indicator that someone is qualified. Having a degree or some number of credits doesn't mean someone is always smarter or better for the job, but it tends to be a good indicator and that's what they need. They have too many applicants to wade through them all one by one.

Come on, if you REALLY want the job you'll do what you have to to get the credits you need. It's not all that hard to pull together 30, or now 15 credits. What, a few months of night classes at WCC or even online?

For the dept. it shows some dedication and drive and the ability to do work. That's all. It's not the only way to display this, but its and easy way when dealing with so many people on an open application basis.

[Guest paramedico987]

Oh, for the love of god!

I read the opening post and then promptly had a seizure as my brain tried to wrap itself around such a ridiculous claim.