Duplication Of Resources

[x635 4,066]

Let's take an example of a situation that's common throughout Westchester, and in fact New York State.

I personally feel the "we have the money let's spend it" attitude of some commisioners and governors of departments needs to end.

Here's the example. Take Department A,B,C,D. All the districts are within the same town, are a couple square miles big, and each's headquarters are within 5 minutes of each other. All these departments combined do less then 500 calls a year.....combined. On the breakdown-how many of those were life threatening and the equipment used.

Yet, each department needs it's own everything. It's own ladder. It's own rescue. It's own everything. It comes to be a duplication of resources. I'm understanding that there are "could happen" sutations and the need for the equipment, but in this day and age, some apparatus, equipment, and even departments are obsolete, and costing the taxpayers millions uneccarily.

And, I'm not going to get into the fact that some departments would rather spend more on apparatus then traning and staffing.

[x242Steve 1]

Seth, do you have a hidden listening device up here? Myself and the Fire Communications LT (who may or may not be an active member of this site) were having a discussion earlier regarding this issue.

I know when we (Rye FD) were planning for the new Ladder, the topic of Tower versus Straight-Stick came up... Aside from the overall height and cost issues, we took into account the fact that Harrison, Port Chester, Purchase, West Harrison and Larchmont all have Tower Ladders, and ultimately decided that it was more appropriate to go with a straight-stick.

Mutual Aid should not be solely reserved for second alarms. For example, Rye covers a rather accident-prone section of I-95/287. Engine 191 is well equipped for extricaions, but we also know that Port Chester's Rescue 40 is a couple of minutes away if the stuff hits the fan (or the pavement).

Back to Aerials, I think that Northern Westchester is a good example of appropriate resources. You have several towns with no Ladders, but there is always one nearby. (This will be even truer when MKFD gets their new Truck.)

Shiny new rigs are nice, but being responsible to the tax-payers is nicer.

[LCFD968 10]

Good topic.... Its funny that we see that eveywhere here in New York but not so much else where. Not that we are a model FD but that is the exact reason we wont purchase a ladder truck. For the amount of buildings that are over two stories in our district there is no need. All the Fire Dept around us have one so we call them. Its basicly automatic mutual aid.

Its a waste of money that can better used torwards something else that would better fit our response or I should say fit our district.

Edited April 23, 2007 by LCFD968

[turk182 37]

The thing that stinks is we can talk about this until we are all blue in the face and it is not going to change. How people can defend what they spend money on is beyond me. Lets say there is a department (lets call it Whole Wheat Fire Department) Now Whole Wheat covers +/- 6 square miles does approx. 850 calls a year has 2 front line engines 2 back up engines 1 front line ladder and 1 back up ladder. oh and lets not forget about the 3 chief cars, utility pickup, and 2 boats. Did I mention that the average personel reponse to a call is around 6 firefighters which would include 3 to 4 career firefighters. Yet when you question why Whole Wheat needs a third TIC or a third extracation tool or that $40,000 pickup you're told mind your own bees wax. Yet bring up real issues they are swept under the carpet faster than you could imagine. I guess departments like Whole Wheat can get away with it since they save so much money by not training, not providing physicals, not giving fit tests, and by not doing a assortment of other usefull and dare I say required things. Well I am blue so now a shut up. Have a Great Day!

[khas143 13]

This issue is not limited to the fire service either. Police Departments all over the state and county duplicate resources all the time. Is is neccisary to have 30 individual SWAT (SRT or whatever you call it) teams within every jurisdicition or would it be more financially prudent to have a county-wide team that is on duty 24/7 and could respond to any location in the county. (much quicker than calling in your own staff from say dutchess).

This is not to say that individual cities do not justify their own teams but does Town A who has 15 cops really need to have a team?

The reason, as X635 stated is that everybody wants their own little "exciting" team, ladder, rescue, etc. This is, in my opinion, a waste of tax-payer money and everybody knows it.

There have been several studies done that have stated that county taxpayers could save tens of millions of dollars a year by combining resources (both P.D. and F.d). But lets face it, politics will NEVER let that happen.

[Remember585 815]

The home rule thing will always kill us. Everybody wants all the toys they can in their sandbox, but if we put all of them together we'd have a beach full of resources! But we know how that goes...

I can't speak for PD things, but in the FD world we are nuts. Everyone is talking about manpower issues but we keep buying more rigs that are bigger and harder to drive in the ever-crowding communities we protect. During the daytime in our little Village we have to squeeze through streets lined with parked cars, avoid pedestrians (especially kids) getting lunch, fight morning & evening Route 9 traffic and let's not forget the growing amount of homes going in with narrow driveways lined with low hanging trees. We're losing the battle!

There's one area I can speak of because it's my neck of the woods, the Town of Cortlandt. The TOC includes Croton (Village), Montrose, Buchanan (Village), Verplanck, Mohegan and Continental Village FDs. (Mohegan covers portions of Cortlandt & Yorktown, but for this point I am counting them.) In this area of roughly 35 square miles and a population of about 50,000 we have a total of 18 Engines, 5 Aerials, 5 Rescues (3 Heavy, 2 Medium), 2 Tankers, 1 Brush unit, and a total of 14 units with extrication abilities. (I left out the VA because they are a Federal entity on private property.)

With the exception of Mohegan the rest of us won't even break 400 fire calls per year. Most buildings in the Town are 2-3 stories with a few standing at 5 stories. Croton has the biggest area and population and we still did barely 300 fire calls in 2006.

Do we really need this much equipment? In the entire town I would say there is an average of perhaps one vehicle extrication per week, and it usually is in Mohegan. Is there honestly a need to have this much stuff in our relatively quiet area? Couldn't each of us meet and come up with a plan to work together, put aside indifferences and do what is best for our public? Am I nuts for even saying something?! I guarantee some people will tell me to shut up, but I really think we are nuts to have as much as we do, especially since in my 15+ years in my Department we have yet to use EVERYTHING IN THE TOWN AT THE SAME TIME, including Hurricane Floyd.

Does anyone see my point? I know other Towns are in the same boat and there are many, many people who agree with me. It's just too bad that nobody is truly willing to give something up because they've always had it and "always will."

I'm done.

[Guest]

Well said 585. Im looking at the towns in Westchester and see towns that dont hit 500 calls a year with a couple engines, a rescue, 4 chiefs vehicles. I mean the districts overlap with other districts that are 5 minutes away and its funny to think that a call on the border of the districts can draw 6 chiefs, 4 engines. i mean come on guys its stupid. Just because an area is called something different doesnt mean it needs its own dept. 585's example lays this out perfectly. Lewisboro runs Golden's Bridge, Vista, and South Salem. There are 12,000 people living in all these districts combined!!! Now this may be justified because the district is over a large area, but what about what some towns do in Connectict- have a central firehouse somewhere in Lewisboro and station one of the engines at a substation in the area with the highest call volume. That way you can have an engine on scene qucikly if there is a fire and the rest of the units will arrive shorty thereafter.

New Canaan, CT has a fire department that does over 1000 calls per year over a 27 square mile area out of one firehouse, and their response is phenomenal. They respond out of one firehouse - that is it. and they do it effectively. What's the deal with Westchester having firehouses like 5 minutes apart all over the place. What is the point of that is makes no no no no sense.

You have many departments in a town that can't staff their engines. How bout combine all of the departments and manpower to maek sure you cant staff an engine all the time and everyone will be happy.

[sr71 1]

The Town of Darien

DFD

1 chiefs car

engine 41,42

tower ladder 43

rescue 44

Tanker 45

NFD

engines 31,32

Ladder 30

Rescue 33

Marine unit 34

NHFD

1 chiefs car

Truck 20

Engines 21,23

Tanker 22

Rescue 25

so theres 6 engines, 2 sticks and 1 tower, 2 heavy rescues 1 medium duty

and 1 fire boat

the town is only 15 square miles and we have more front line apparatus than the city of norwalk which runs 5 engines 2 trucks and 1 rescue

[RichC 0]

sr71: Interesting info, if you have some additional info on square miles, population and run totals the picture would be more complete. It would help keep things in perspective so we know what we are comparing.

Noroton and Noroton Heights are I believe bedroom type communitities if I am not mistaken. Maybe Darien is as well. Are the 3 departments paid, vol. or combo?

Thanks

[sr71 1]

run totals

sr71: Interesting info, if you have some additional info on square miles, population and run totals the picture would be more complete. It would help keep things in perspective so we know what we are comparing. 

Noroton and Noroton Heights are I believe bedroom type communitities if I am not mistaken. Maybe Darien is as well. Are the 3 departments paid, vol. or combo?

Thanks

←

the population of the town is around 24,000 residents

All three Depts in town are 100% volunteer

and the last posted total run stactics are from 2004 online

my dept had in the ball park of 357 noroton alarms and 3437 man hours of training. (we in town run mutal aide monday through friday from 7 am to 1800 hrs to all structual calls so our total runs are alott more and i dont have that number on hand)

Edited April 23, 2007 by sr71

[rbuchjr 0]

Here are the statistics for the town of Darien.

http://www.darienct.gov/firemarshal/fdstats.htm

These are a little misleading, however, because as Sr71 said, from 0700-1700 hrs on weekdays their is a townwide mutual aid plan for all box alarms, so those numbers will be a little inflated.

Also, all three departments in the town are within 2 miles of each other, so mutual aid within the town is easily accessible.

Edited April 23, 2007 by rbuchjr

[Guest]

Here's some food for thought...Check your ISO rating and review the report on how you got your score. The rating is based on juristriction. The smaller the juristrictions, the more there is duplication of services. As an example, they determine that an engine will cover an area with an approximate radius of 1.5 miles from station. It may vary based on response routes and time. A truck gets about a 2.5 mile radius. This is not a hard rule, but a rough interpetation of the guidelines.

If you want to buy some "Neat" equipment, see where you came up short on the last audit and see what, if anything will increase your rating. Since your department's rating has a direct impact on the fire insurance rates paid by the community, you can spend in a way that the community may see some overall cost savings. IT may not be much, but it buys you some great PR when its done.

Someone mentioned it earlier in regards to their recent aerial purchase...buy something your neighbors don't have. If you have a small juristriction, like mine, look at how your purchase impacts the region. Be smart.

Me, I love away games. There is minimal if any clean up and when your get released, your gone. PLay nice in the sandbox...there is more then enough work for everybody.

[Guest]

One big difference between Darien and Westchester towns, however, is that Darien has a long stretch of I-95 running through it with what seems like at least one accident per day. Additionally, they have the Post Road and they border a town with 120,000 residents and 80,000 residents. The one thing that bothers me is that these towns in Westchester have 4 chief cars for a district of a couple square miles. Seems like a total misue of town funds if you ask me. I mean I've seen on incdent alerts there are 3 cheifs cars and 1 ngine on scence and the rest is mutual aide. I'm glad you can staff your chief cars! At what point do we realize that staffing an engine is the most important?