Interagency Communications And Command

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

That was insane last night in Mamaroneck. It was great to come home to my own basement underwater. To all the agencies whose boat I may have been in or placed many, many people in THANK YOU.

I have to say that Westchester has to work on some sort of communications for disasters like this. Nobody could talk to nobody and we being PD had really no way to communicate with anyone. We were sent back down into the MAMARONECK area around 4:30a to look for a family that was stranded. SHocking I think we were there 2HRS earlier and they didn't want to leave. Anyway we got down to INCIDENT COMMAND at the Train Tressel and an UNNAMED FIRE CHIEF from and UNKNOWN AGENCY told us where to go. We got there, the family had been evacuated. Not knowing this we kept searching. By this time most of the FD"s had packed up and left. We got back to INCIDENT COMMAND and low and behold the FIRE CHIEF was gone.

Nice job doing your INCIDENT COMMAND whoever you were. Nice to leave 6 RESCUERS searching a residence that had already been evacuated. NICE JOB not to be at INCIDENT COMMAND when we got back to confirm the address since there was no form of COMMUNICATION.

At one point we found a couple of FD units somewhere and asked to call INCIDENT COMMAND so we could confirm an address. They didn't even have a frequency.

This topic needs to be addressed and soon. Somebody is going to get killed.

[RWC130 594]

The COUNTY of Westchester should make it a requirement that ALL

Police have one common channel that ALL PD portables/vehicles have.

The COUNTY of Westchester should make it a requirement that ALL

Fire have one common channel that ALL FD portables/vehicles have.

The COUNTY of Westchester should make it a requirement that ALL

EMS have one common channel that ALL EMS portables/vehicles have.

THEN.... The COUNTY of Westchester should make it a requirement that ALL

PD, FD, EMS have one common channel that ALL PD, FD, EMS portables/vehicles have and can ALL communicate in an EMERGENCY.

155.370 Statewide Police MRD - Do ALL Police Department have it? NO

155.715 Statewide EMS - Do ALL EMS Agencies have it? NO

Various UHF Fire Grounds - Do ALL Fire Departments have it? NO

ANYONE SEE A PROBLEM HERE?

Interagency Communications? YEAH RIGHT!

The COUNTY of Westchester No Funding? FIND IT!

Politicians find money to run for office, No?

Whoops, Did i hit a nerve?

THIS IS NOT A JOKE AND NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED 100%

GOOD JOB to 60-Control who did an AMAZING job thru this mess.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Oneeyedmedic...sorry for the event brother. Like a good friend says...you can't fix stupid or ignorance.

RWC...you have excellent points and I couldn't agree with you more to an extent. You have to remember on thing....NY IS A HOME RULE STATE. It is left up to AHJ's most decisions on what to do. How is it the county's fault if what now...nearly 5 or more years since the UHF fireground channels have been around that departments still haven't gotten on board? Fact is there is a program being put in place, that is why every fire and ems vehicle either has or is in the process of getting the trunked radio installed.

The point is the county of westchester can't really make it a requirement being we are a home rule state...and lets not forget how many times that on a county level they have tried to be proactive and been basically told to go scratch, with the all famous and ignorant "you can't tell us what do." There is a trunking system being put in place...that on a personal note would have been nice to see how it would have worked out with a large scale event like this, and not everyone is on board, with its use etc.

[helicopper 1,050]

Oneeyedmedic...sorry for the event brother.  Like a good friend says...you can't fix stupid or ignorance.

RWC...you have excellent points and I couldn't agree with you more to an extent.  You have to remember on thing....NY IS A HOME RULE STATE.  It is left up to AHJ's most decisions on what to do.  How is it the county's fault if what now...nearly 5 or more years since the UHF fireground channels have been around that departments still haven't gotten on board?  Fact is there is a program being put in place, that is why every fire and ems vehicle either has or is in the process of getting the trunked radio installed.

The point is the county of westchester can't really make it a requirement being we are a home rule state...and lets not forget how many times that on a county level they have tried to be proactive and been basically told to go scratch, with the all famous and ignorant "you can't tell us what do."  There is a trunking system being put in place...that on a personal note would have been nice to see how it would have worked out with a large scale event like this, and not everyone is on board, with its use etc.

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Home rule definitely has its disadvantages in situations like this but couldn't the county say... to be dispatched by the County, or to be a signatory on one of the various mutual aid plans, to receive any County training/equipment/aid/etc. ... you must comply with the recommendations described by RWC and others.

Overcoming home rule and its problems notwithstanding, if you call mutual aid it's your party - you have to make sure that everyone can communicate. There are enough options out there today that there could have been a composite communications system established (with Field Comm, three portables on the table in front of a dispatcher, etc.) to prevent the problems that oneeye experienced. There is no reason at all that there should have been a command, coordination and communications vacuum last night!

The reality is that incidents and issues like this are regional and require a regional approach to a solution. They don't lend themselves to local or agency level solutions - that's how we wound up in this mess in the first place.

We also have to learn to dispense with the day to day structure of operations and get into "disaster mode" - there was so much irrelevant chatter on the radios last night it is a wonder anyone was able communicate effectively.

[Guest]

I'm sure the 60 control and local municipality dispatchers did an excellent job last night. However, i still think its time for a Westchester County 911 center. I'm talking about a dedicated building or building addition dedicated solely to dispatching (Fire, Police, EMS), resource coordination, inter-agecny interoperability,the housing of an EOC.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

but couldn't the county say... to be dispatched by the County, or to be a signatory on one of the various mutual aid plans, to receive any County training/equipment/aid/etc. ... you must comply with the recommendations described by RWC and others.

Chris...could they absolutely. But you know as well as I do, (considering you taught me some of this many moons ago) that again it will come down to the "you can't tell me who to call in mutual aid."

Mutual aid plans? Show me one common sense or written plan for mutual aid on the fire side. Its mostly fly by the seat of your pants, which way the wind is blowing and who doesn't like what the neighboring department does. Which I just heard of first hand over a FAST issue. I have to just say quickly to that...grow up! I still have to argue with a few trying to explain my point that resource management sometimes has to be done on the fly at any given moment based on call volume...however calling this department today, but then I want this department on this day is ridiculous.

As far as throwing training into the mix. Again..great idea, I love it, but how long would that last before chiefs, commissioners, members, and organizations that "represent" certain demographics of fire service members start ringing politicians phones off the hook, or flood the agency charged with coordinating the training. I've seen first hand how certain persons and organizations act now in regard to training and trying to keep it as professional as possible, its half whimmed, usually quite inaccurate, unprofessional and nothing more then a rant. When often, there are numerous no shows from the persons own agencies that are calling.

This isn't an issue that is going to ever completely go away. However, I must again remind all that there is a trunking system being put in place...every ambulance/fire vehicle is having one installed and I believe each agency is receiving 3 portables. Perhaps this is something that the county PD in conjunction with DES could discuss and get the Dept. of Public Safety to get more PD's involved and find a program to get them the capability as well. The system for interagency is almost there. Just unfortunate it wasn't for this issue. But yet again...I've heard "leaders" ummmm "managers" ummm air wasters/firefighters with red lights say they won't even turn them on. So go figure. When will they, when they really need it...and then when they don't know the system, can't remember the system or how it is suppose to work and operate it will be everyone's fault but their own.

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris...could they absolutely.  But you know as well as I do, (considering you taught me some of this many moons ago) that again it will come down to the "you can't tell me who to call in mutual aid." 

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Oh sure, start the age jokes again! If you're gonna do that at least increase the font size!

You're absolutely right, there is no quick fix but we could make a lot of progress if someone set a standard and dared everyone to meet it. Maybe reward successful partners with a case of EMTBravo flashlights???

Pity we're so bassackwards! Look at how freakin' organized they are out West and it makes you miserable. (not to say that they're perfect but they sure do have alot of our problems addressed!)

[ems-buff 81]

If there was any a time for the county to have field com. 1 in use, last night was it. I saw more and more M/A FD departments comeing in last night there at IC at H/L. Does Field com. 1 have the capability to swith back and forth from UHF fire ground to VHF VMPD/ MEMS ch? Also last night was crazy to. Good job to all involed. I was glad to help and be apart of it.

[RWC130 594]

Sorry but RADIO COMMUNICATIONS is a major concern of mine.....

When a COUNTY of Westchester Police, Fire, EMS vehicle operator cannot speak on the radio to another COUNTY of Westchester Police, Fire, EMS vehicle operator as they pass you or you have an EMERGENCY that is NOT a good sign.

WAKE UP WESTCHESTER! This is 2007!

alsfirefighter "There is a trunking system being put in place"

RIGHT!!!!

No disrespect to DES, I know some hands on tired on this but.....

It's "being put in place" since when?

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

The whole night went pretty well as a whole. That one incident pissed me off and I had to let it know. Anyone that knows me knows that I can't keep my mouth shut. I am not into COMMUNICATIONS at all. I know how to work them and I know how to run and incident if need be. Who was in charge last night Mamaroneck or OEM or some other agency?

How about West County one of the RICHEST IN THE U.S. comes up with some money and buys a sh*t load of radios that are all the same frequency for such incidents. Not sure how the High band, Low band, Ultra high stuff works. But if you could. Hand out radios at the scene. WRite down the agency or persons from that agency that radio went too and maybe an identifier on the radio. Now you know who is calling what agency. At the end of the operation you get the radio back. It seems so simple to me. I know that there is alot more than that but in my mind that is how is should work.

Fire Control may have done a great job but it is time to expand. I know they work their asses off in there but they a BIGGER FACILITY.

Great Job to everyone that was there. EXCEPT FOR THAT FIRE CHIEF. I will find out who you were.

[LCFD968 10]

Little confused... If there was an Incident Commander then there was a Command Post.. Why wasnt there an Law Enforcement Officer in charge at the Command Post? If there wasn't did you ask for a radio or offer one of yours so there was comunication?

With so many agencies from so many different radio frequencies you are bound to have issues.

I am not saying the CHIEF handled it right. I AM JUST ASKING A QUESTION!!

[trauma74 111]

I can sympathize with these communications problems! Westchester County is not the only County in the Hudson Valley Region that has these communications problems. I have experienced these problems first hand in my home County of Orange and when I worked as a paid EMT in Rockland County.

I am into COMMUNICATIONS. I constantly slam people who hinder inter-agency communications. It is the pissing match where you hear "No way are we going to permit anyone to talk on our channels but our own members" "We do not want everyone else to know what we are doing" etc, etc, etc.

I took the effort within my own agency to make sure that we have the ability, when needed to communicate directly with our local PDs, our FD and our DPW workers. Although we are technically not allowed to use the County FD channels to communicate with our FD, I said "F*** IT". I would rather take the heat for transmitting on an FD channel in an emergency, then to be scared to use these channels.

I rolled up on a structure fire a few years ago and instead of having contacting the EMS dispatcher who would yell across the room and tell the FD dispatcher to tell the FD Chief that I was on the scene of a working house fire and that all residents were out of the house, I just turned on my lowband radio and told the Chief this information directly thus saving over a minute of playing the "telephone game".

I agree with passing out radios to other agencies when we are all working together. You do not need these crazy $5000 digital trunking portable radios. Keeping a dozen Chinese made Infinity portables that can be purchased for $150 each on hand could work out perfect for many incidents. If a few of these radios do not make it back to you or they get damaged, it is worth the price you paid for them and you had good interops which you cannot place a value on.

Edited April 17, 2007 by trauma74

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Little confused...  If there was an Incident Commander then there was a Command Post.. Why wasnt there an Law Enforcement Officer in charge at the Command Post? If there wasn't did you ask for a radio or offer one of yours so there was comunication?

With so many agencies from so many different radio frequencies you are bound to have issues.

I am not saying the CHIEF handled it right. I AM JUST ASKING A QUESTION!!

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Here is the deal. We pulled up to the COMMAND POST which was stationed at a MAMARONECK FD. We were told to go to where the train tressle was and make contact there. We made contact with a MAMARONECK PO who looked like he was directing units where to go. We were told where to deploy our motorcrafts, parked our vehicles and went to work. After we finally came out of the water which was at approximately 4am we went back to the I guess you can call it the COMMAND POST. We hung out there and then around 5 or so we were again sent back to where our watercrafts where we were told by an UNKNOWN FD CHIEF that there was a family in need of evacuation at so and so residence. We got back in our boats and went to that scene. NOBODY was there because they had been evacuated already. Because we had no communication we did not know this. We found a couple of FD UNITS blocking off some street and a couple of our guys asked them to contact either the COMMAND POST OR INCIDENT COMMAND to find out if we were at the right residence or if there was any other person's in need of assistance while we were there. They did not even have the frequency to contact the COMMAND POST or INCIDENT COMMAND. They asked us what frequency it was. That is annoying. Anyway when we got back to our starting point the FIRE CHIEF GUY WAS GONE. We made contact with the MAMARONECK PO we originally saw and he had no idea what had happened.

My thing is if you are going to send a crew into a situation BE THERE WHEN THEY GET BACK or DON"T GET INVOLVED IN THE INCIDENT COMMAND ASPECT.

I still don't know if it was a PD or FD INCIDENT. So I know we made contact with PD personell after we came out the first time. I guess I forgot that when we got down to Mamaroneck 2 of our guys had already been there so I don't know if they had made contact. We did not grab a radio and we did not take ours with us. That would have made no sense since we were in DRY SUITS and would have had not place put them.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE COMMUNICATIONS SUCKED. That is it. If you weren't there then you can't comment on this and that. I am just saying what I experienced.

[bob803 1]

Sounds like NIMS need to be revisited.....

[RH31379 0]

I was with one of the Engines relocated from Putnam County and the first Putnam Engine to be sent to the command / staging area. We arived and were directed to sign in and wait to be briefed, which happend pretty quickly. We were told that there would be some down time and would be given an assignment. Thats what happened, we were given a radio, truck company to ride with and a guide and a company to borrow the proper hydrant connection from and our assignment was to handle all emergency calls on that side of the village. We were there through the change of command from the Marmaroneck Command to the Putnam Chiefs taking over and the mobile communications trailer being set up anmd then the tranfer back to the Marmaroneck Chiefs. I would have to say that all in all the situation went well. For what they were dealing with, a stuborn fire that would not go out, the village split in two by flooding, all the agencies coming from whereever, Local people were yelling at verizion and the PD diffused that, they were yelling at the IC to pump there basement, that was handled well.

One thing I would say is 60 control at the training center where we staged for 10 min. should of had the proper fitting to lend us from the beginning, not a big deal but the department we barrowed it from was a little confused. We were able to comunicate with the command post using out low band in the engine, the company we were riding with gave us a hi-band portable incase we need side communication.

Of course there were peole running around saying this is running horribly and we should just leave were sitting here and not doing anything, yes there was down time and then you had an assignment and ran for a while.... if you stayed home in your own department would you be running non-stop or have down time?

Edited April 17, 2007 by RH31379

[hudson144 150]

good thing it was only a noreaster! guess we can live and learn and prepare for the next large scale incident!

[Guest]

Couldn't agree more. I'm still pulling for a 911 Center.

[Oswegowind 17]

I agree with a centralized communications center. Even if home rule still applies all the dispatchers and calltakers should be in one building and on one CAD system. Dispatchers with experience (Senior or promoted) should make decisions on mutual aid based on need and response time. Even if you want to hire your own personnel they should have to work in the centralized center and off of the Countywide CAD system. This would alleviate long wait times while dialing 911 because a small town only has 1 or 2 people on the phones and they are not ready for the big one. Listen, don't get me wrong, there are many times when we could use more bodies in Yonkers. Phones just keep ringing ya know and people have to wait to be served, but the more people work together the better for the public.

In the centralized center there could be a major fire in Elmsford and maybe 15-20 calls come in and dispatchers from all over the county are able to answer and put info into the system for the Elmsford dispatch coordinator whom then doesn't have to worry about the phone for a minute and is able to concentrate on providing safety instructions, bolo's, and on demand communication with units in the field responding and operating at an incident.

As well this would help with policing. Persons files can be kept, and vehicle files as well and if an incident occurs a dispatcher would be able to notify a unit of all police contact that suspect has had and why...maybe even if they have a pistol permit or something. Safety is the major concern on the PD side and this would help somewhat more than what we have now. Just cause someone has no warrants doesn't mean they are not a danger and other dept's may have dealt with them in the past and have info to share with the rest.

Ah, it will never happen but it would be nice!

[jd783 64]

Why wasen't the closest rig that was at a water condition in mamaroneck dispatched with a confirmed person trapped at a structure fire. I am not trying to start a war here I just don't see the facts stated in the newspaper article

Why can't we talk about this? other post deleted,PM if there is a problem

Edited April 18, 2007 by jd783

[jd783 64]

See post above

[emt301 4]

Why wasen't the closest rig that was at a water condition in mamaroneck dispatched with a confirmed person trapped at a structure fire. I am not trying to start a war here I just don't see the facts stated in the newspaper article

Why can't we talk about this? other post deleted,PM if there is a problem

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With all due respect, I'm really not sure what you're saying....are you implying that the dispatching was poorly done? Not being at 60-control at that moment, seems like it's kind of hard for anyone to second guess what was done until all of the facts come out. Maybe that "closest rig" was in a poor position to respond due to water/flood conditions in it's immediate area. Maybe it was involved in a water rescue & couldn't just pick up & leave. We really don't know. I'm sure the dispatchers did the best they could under the circumstances...the situation they faced during this was of an almost overwhelming magnitude, and from everything I've heard their performance & dedication were outstanding.

Edited April 18, 2007 by emt301

[jd783 64]

This is just my thoughts on the subject I worked that night and of all the people we removed on boat or foot NONE were in danger of being killed. This man died I know damm well all companies there did all they could under the worst possible conditions but lets not lose sight of our primary goal LIFE SAFETY flooded homes are not a life safety issue I do not want this thread to go in the wrong direction and I am not bashing the companies or dispatchers

[emt301 4]

This is just my thoughts on the subject I worked that night and of all the people we removed on boat or foot NONE were in danger of being killed. This man died I know damm well all companies there did all they could under the worst possible conditions but lets not lose sight of our primary goal LIFE SAFETY  flooded homes are not a life safety issue I do not want this thread to go in the wrong direction and I am not bashing the companies or dispatchers

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I agree - life safety is TOP PRIORITY, and why we're all in emergency services...not trying to send this thread in the wrong direction either...guess I would just rather wait for the facts to emerge than to engage in any potential speculation.

[JetPhoto 626]

Does Westchester County have a "Chiefs Council" of some sorts? Where the chiefs get together once a month to discuss past present and future development of the emergency services in the county?

Dutchess has one, Chiefs, Assistant Chiefs and Captains meet once a month except during the summer. These meeting allow you to discuss upcoming events, which way to shape emergency services as a county for the future. Be involved in what is going to happen with things like Radio Communications. Have open communications with the legislative body and many more benefits that could help the departments, firefighters and the overall goal the citizens.

If you don't have one already, it may be something to help each department come up with a good county plan.

The County has to have a spine and say look we got to work together. The local departments have to give up their old ways and say yes a common radio plan is something we should have and actually use it. you know what's going on 3 or 4 departments away but how about 4th, 5th or 6th? We all have some place in our district that one day that department on the other side of the county will be assisting you at. Will they be able to talk to you?

Once again, I don't know your emergency services setup except for what I read here and there, but reading things that are on this board makes it appear that everyone wants to work together.

[helicopper 1,050]

Sounds like NIMS need to be revisited.....

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I think NIMS needs to be READ! It's so much more than just ICS training and filling out a few checklists saying you're compliant. Having read it, and the proposed revision due out this summer, I found that it describes steps to better prepare for things like this Nor'Easter. Imagine this: preparedness, training, exercises, communications, resource management, command and control, public information all outlined in a single document that we can all use a the framework for future responses. If you read all the complaints about the response to the storm or other incidents of late you'll see a startling similarity: problems with communications, resource management, command and control, public information, and preparedness. Shocking, I know.

It's so frustrating when you hear people with the responsibility for this saying, we took ICS training so we're compliant. It's painfully obvious that they have no idea what the concept is all about. It's even more frustrating to hear that municipalities and/or agencies are completely ignoring it and maintaining the status quo.

I still don't know if it was a PD or FD INCIDENT.

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If ever an incident called for unified command this was it. There should have been a clearly identifiable command post with representatives from PD, FD, EMS, DPW, municipal authorities, ConEd, and support staff. Resources checking in at staging should have been properly briefed by someone designated by command to do so and their assignments should have been reported to and tracked by the command post. We talk alot about ICS and who's in command but what about who's doing resource tracking/management?

And nobody should have been allowed to work in a potentially hazardous environment without proper communications equipment and personal protective equipment.

With all due respect, I'm really not sure what you're saying....are you implying that the dispatching was poorly done?  Not being at 60-control at that moment, seems like it's kind of hard for anyone to second guess what was done until all of the facts come out.  Maybe that "closest rig" was in a poor position to respond due to water/flood conditions in it's immediate area.  Maybe it was involved in a water rescue & couldn't just pick up & leave. We really don't know.  I'm sure the dispatchers did the best they could under the circumstances...the situation they faced during this was of an almost overwhelming magnitude, and from everything I've heard their performance & dedication were outstanding.

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First off, as someone else said already, these weren't water rescues. They were water evacuations - nobody was being dragged downstream by raging flood waters and only holding onto a tree limb for dear life. They were standing on their porches waiting for us to pick them up because they failed to heed the recommendation to evacuate. Hmm... People chose not to evacuate before the storm and are now criticizing the emergency response. Interesting, but probably a thread all its own.

This is not a dispatch failure. It is a command and resource management failure. If you don't like the word "failure" substitute one that you find less objectionable. I'm not criticizing any Chief, department, or agency. I'm criticizing the SYSTEM. It quite obviously failed if there was such a delayed response to an emergency, the working structure fire. Yes, conditions were horrible. Yes, there were many competing calls for service. But there was only one call that actually rose the level of REQUIRING a fire response and that was the house fire.

Had people sat down and planned for this over the weekend (or in the six weeks since the last bad flooding) maybe things could have been smoother for all involved. I'm not suggesting that the outcome at the fire would have been any different! I'm just saying that there probably wouldn't be so many comments about problems with communications, coordination, etc. here if we had done a better job preparing.

[Monty 35]

I think NIMS needs to be READ!  It's so much more than just ICS training and filling out a few checklists saying you're compliant.  Having read it, and the proposed revision due out this summer, I found that it describes steps to better prepare for things like this Nor'Easter.  Imagine this:  preparedness, training, exercises, communications, resource management, command and control, public information all outlined in a single document that we can all use a the framework for future responses.  If you read all the complaints about the response to the storm or other incidents of late you'll see a startling similarity:  problems with communications, resource management, command and control, public information, and preparedness.  Shocking, I know.   

It's so frustrating when you hear people with the responsibility for this saying, we took ICS training so we're compliant.  It's painfully obvious that they have no idea what the concept is all about.  It's even more frustrating to hear that municipalities and/or agencies are completely ignoring it and maintaining the status quo.

If ever an incident called for unified command this was it.  There should have been a clearly identifiable command post with representatives from PD, FD, EMS, DPW, municipal authorities, ConEd, and support staff.  Resources checking in at staging should have been properly briefed by someone designated by command to do so and their assignments should have been reported to and tracked by the command post.  We talk alot about ICS and who's in command but what about who's doing resource tracking/management?

And nobody should have been allowed to work in a potentially hazardous environment without proper communications equipment and personal protective equipment.

.......

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I've stayed out of this because I wasn't involved, however I was impressed with some of the coverage I saw both before and after the storm. On several of the reports it talked about the Unified Command set up in Mamaroneck. Obviously things could have been done much better, hopefully there will be some lessons leant and thought put in to to preparedness, training, exercises as Chris states so that the plan has adequate PPE including PFD's, staging areas, resource management.

It seems like steps were made in the right direction, we just need to hope that next time this happens (and I've no doubt it wont be that long before we see it again) that it's handled better.

[Guest partyrock]

Has there been or will there be a debriefing for all the agencies involved?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

RWC: If anyone knows how you care about communications its me being we speak about this often and you know that I do as well. I didn't once say that I don't agree with you, what I brought up is experiences I have had, seen and have been in engaged in on a higher level. There is the Fireground system in place...so we can't say that there was nothing there to be able to help that.

Also, I'm not sounding condesending...but again...the "you can't tell us what to do" is a common phrase used. Also there are only a handful of "Westchester County" units. Engine 7, Ladder 7, Rescue 77, Utility 77 and whatever other units for the fire brigade out there. All other are local units with county issued unit designations. Anyone that has attempted to even deal with neighboring departments knows that its never just that simple.

I think NIMS needs to be READ

I think you're right Chris. Its sad that the I-200 I scheduled was cancelled due to lack of participation. The other thing is we need to understand what NIMS is...isn't and how what many are out there saying they use "incident command" is nothing more then a slightly upgraded version of how you were already doing things.

While there needed to be a "command post" these type of incidents is what screams having a good liason person to handle all the other agencies (utilities, etc) and do this either setting up or already having a command center ready to go.

[emt301 4]

This is not a dispatch failure.  It is a command and resource management failure.  If you don't like the word "failure" substitute one that you find less objectionable.  I'm not criticizing any Chief, department, or agency.  I'm criticizing the SYSTEM.  It quite obviously failed if there was such a delayed response to an emergency, the working structure fire.  Yes, conditions were horrible.  Yes, there were many competing calls for service.  But there was only one call that actually rose the level of REQUIRING a fire response and that was the house fire.  

Had people sat down and planned for this over the weekend (or in the six weeks since the last bad flooding) maybe things could have been smoother for all involved.  I'm not suggesting that the outcome at the fire would have been any different!  I'm just saying that there probably wouldn't be so many comments about problems with communications, coordination, etc. here if we had done a better job preparing.

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I'm glad you agree it's not a dispatch failure. That's what I've been saying in my posts, but for some reason that point seems to be getting lost...as if I'm really just defending the overall system that the county has. EVERYONE in the county...both dispatchers and responders...knows that the system is SEVERELY flawed in terms of ICS. Everyone claims how they're compliant, and most agencies haven't the foggiest idea of how to truly implement ICS. I found the term "failure" objectionable, since when it was originally written it was pertaining to a particular closest engine not being DISPATCHED, and therefore, though apparently unintentional, seemed to imply that the dispatchers working at 60 that night didn't do the right thing or do their job properly. Were there mistakes made at the Mamaroneck command post by the IC ?....that remains to be seen. My point about water rescues or evacuations (whichever they were) was that resources apparently were committed in some way, shape, or form...I didn't in any way try start a debate over rescue v. evacuation...OBVIOUSLY an house fire with entrapment takes place over a water evacuation (as opposed to a rescue). I was just trying to say that unless you were there at 60 control or sitting at the Mamaroneck Command Post...& know where, why & how EACH and EVERY unit was committed, then it's pure speculation & second guessing for anybody to make judgment on what the exact structure fire assignment should have been - a full investigation needs to be completed. I just want to see the dispatchers get a fair shake...the use (or misuse) of the ICS system overall in the county can be ripped apart all you like, because yes, it is seriously flawed !!!!.

Edited April 20, 2007 by emt301

[ex-commish 490]

I have taught numerous incident command classes....some when it was called Incident Command and now I-200 and in many cases some of the feedback I would get from some students is no matter how much of this is taught it will never work here in the Northeast which is a concept I disagree with. Anything will work if you put your mind to it and more improtantly practice. When was the last time any dept or depts did a simple incident command drill? Or when you do do you involve the police? EMS? DPW? Other agencies? If you paid attention in class you would remember at large scale incidents ( and in some cases small scale) there will be many other agencies involved.

Comes down to training like anything else.