Expandable batons

[paratrooper75 41]

I saw a NYC EMT with an expandable baton on his belt. Is that legal? Can a civilian legally use one for self defense? I though they required specific training to use.

[Guest paramedico987]

I don't think that it is legal, however it seems to be a more common occuance lately... If I'm gonna hit anybody with something it's gonna be the o2 or a radio! I'm not carrying extra weight everywhere.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

You can't buy them in NY and most places won't mail them to NY because the are ILLEGAL although I can't find anything in the PENAL LAW that says so.

Chris can prob find something though.

[Guest partyrock]

God help my partner if he pulls a baton on a patient. I've gone toe to toe with my share of problem patients, and between my partner and myself we've either handled it or kept it within hand until the calvary arrived. The sh!t storm using a baton on a patient could open up is not worth it. I'd rather run and leave the ambulance to the EDP.

[Truck4 48]

They are illegal and no EMT or Medic should be carrying one. They are in the Penal Law under the weapons sections.

[RWC130 594]

Back in my Armored Car days I ordered an ASP thru Galls online with no problem

what so ever.

http://www.gallsinc.com

Most Police Supply/Uniform shops do have them and will sell them

to you if you have some type of Police, EMS, Security ID.

I know last time I was at Olinville in the BX they had them.

Unless you are properly trained and certified I would NOT hit some

one with it.

PS If any PO wants one it's sitting here in the box collecting dust.

I have the leather holster for it too.

[Capejake72 8]

if you are going to carry something (not that I really advocate EMS carrying a "weapon) why not just carry a big Maglite or Streamlite?

heck even the smal pocket sized ones will work (if you've studied the Kubotan techniques) I'm advocating you use this as you would any tool, to defend yourself or partner should you wind up in a situation (no LE, EDP etc.)

[JJB531 652]

As Truck 4 said, they fall under the Criminal Possession of a Weapon statute in the Penal Law.

You also open yourself up to a great deal of liability if you do use it on someone... I know the old saying better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6, but in order for NYC police officers to carry an expandable baton at work, I had to receive specific training. That's why you see some NYPD guys with it, and some without it.

Section 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:

(1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or

(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another; or

The Penal Law has definitions for anything, but doesn't contain a definition for "billy". In the event you did tune somone up with it, it would be considered a deadly instrument until part (2), and you would have to justify your actions for using it.

[Skooter92 7]

I used to carry an ASP back in the day...and I cringe now just thinking about it. I probably would have either reflexively struck at a "no-strike" area on someone, and ended up in jail; or accidentally dinged my partner with the damn thing. Silly me. The last time I needed a way to get out of a situation, I told the EDP my p**** was bigger than his; he was laughing so hard as a result that my partner and I strolled out without incident. Later, after I actually showed it to him, they ended up giving him Haldol and Benadryl, to stop him from crying, but that's another story.

[helicopper 1,050]

As Truck 4 said, they fall under the Criminal Possession of a Weapon statute in the Penal Law. 

You also open yourself up to a great deal of liability if you do use it on someone... I know the old saying better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6, but in order for NYC police officers to carry an expandable baton at work, I had to receive specific training.  That's why you see some NYPD guys with it, and some without it. 

Section 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:

(1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or

(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another;  or

The Penal Law has definitions for anything, but doesn't contain a definition for "billy".  In the event you did tune somone up with it, it would be considered a deadly instrument until part (2), and you would have to justify your actions for using it.

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The law doesn't define "billy" but it does have a specific exemption (quoted below) for auxiliary police to carry a "police baton". If they're using the term billy for police baton we'll probably find case law that defines a police baton as such a "billy".

b. Section 265.01 shall not apply to possession of that type of billy commonly known as a "police baton" which is twenty-four to twenty-six inches in length and no more than one and one-quarter inches in thickness by members of an auxiliary police force of a city with a population in excess of one million persons or the county of Suffolk when duly authorized by regulation or order issued by the police commissioner of such city or such county respectively. Such regulations shall require training in the use of the police baton including but not

limited to the defensive use of the baton and instruction in the legal use of deadly physical force pursuant to article thirty-five of this chapter. Notwithstanding the provisions of this section or any other provision of law, possession of such baton shall not be authorized when used intentionally to strike another person except in those situations when the use of deadly physical force is authorized by such article thirty-five.

As JJB and Truck 4 stated, they are illegal but more importantly their use opens you up to major liability - personally! Your agency will probably not defend you because you're acting outside the scope of your employment and training. I would check your agencies policies very closely - you probably have rules prohibiting carrying illegal items or weapons. You'd be in violation of those too. Not only do you need training in how to use it, you need training in when you're authorized to use it. Police go through mandatory training on the laws regarding the use of force and every weapon system they carry every year. Do you?

Just an opinion - if, in self defense, you struck a patient or other person with a flashlight, radio, clipboard, lifepak, oxygen tank, stretcher, ambulance (sorry I got on a roll but I think you get the point ) you could probably successfully argue that it was self defense and you had no choice but to improvise with an approved piece of equipment.

When you break out the (illegal) expandable POLICE baton and, without training in its proper use, use it in the same situation you're probably going to be charged with ASSAULT and CRIMINAL POSSESSION OF A WEAPON. It will be argued that your actions were premeditated because you consciously chose to carry a prohibited item and the focus will never be the fact that you were defending yourself! You will become a defendant and run the risk of losing your EMS certification if convicted of a crime (see quote below).

Just because you can buy one doesn't mean you should and doesn't mean you're not breaking the law in NY by possessing it.

Every EMS provider needs a flashlight though!!!

To qualify for initial certification, an applicant shall:

a. file a completed application bearing the applicant's original signature in ink with the department on a form provided by the department;

b. be at least 18 years of age prior to the last day of the month in which he/she is scheduled to take the written certification examination, except that a certified first responder must be at least 16 years of age prior to the last day of the month scheduled to take the written certification examination;

c. satisfactorily complete the requirements of a state-approved course in emergency medical technology given by a state-approved course sponsor at one of the following levels for which certification is available:

1. certified first responder (CFR);

2. emergency medical technician-basic (EMT);

3. emergency medical technician-defibrillation (EMT-D);

4. emergency medical technician-intermediate (EMT-I);

5. emergency medical technician-critical care (EMT-CC);

6. emergency medical technician-paramedic (EMT-P);

7. certified laboratory instructor (CLI);

8. certified instructor coordinator (CIC).

d. after completion of all course requirements, but within one year thereafter, pass the state practical skills examination, if applicable, for the level at which certification is sought;

e. within one year after passing the practical skills examination, pass the state written certification examination for the level at which certification is sought except at the certified instructor coordinator level and certified lab instructor level; and

f. not have any convictions for a crime or crimes related to murder, manslaughter, assault, sexual abuse, theft, robbery, drug abuse, or sale of drugs or currently be under charges for such a crime, unless the department finds that such conviction or charges do not demonstrate a present risk or danger to patients.

[helicopper 1,050]

God help my partner if he pulls a baton on a patient.  I've gone toe to toe with my share of problem patients, and between my partner and myself we've either handled it or kept it within hand until the calvary arrived.  The sh!t storm using a baton on a patient could open up is not worth it.  I'd rather run and leave the ambulance to the EDP.

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Amen brother!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

After looking at the Penal Law online I found the weapons part but could not find the Police Baton part. I knew you guys would find it.

LIABILITY, LIABILTY

[Guest]

I don't think that it is legal, however it seems to be a more common occuance lately...  If I'm gonna hit anybody with something it's gonna be the o2 or a radio!  I'm not carrying extra weight everywhere.

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Couldn't have said it any better myself!!