FAST- Should They Go To Work?

[hudson144 150]

Since the concept of fast teams has been in westchester I have noticed many times that these teams are constantly going to work. This is not directed to any teams involved but it appears that something is going on here in westchester and it may need some tweaking. As always this is my opinion so you can agree or dis agree with me and I won't be offended. The thought of fast teams is a good one. I have been in favor since its inception. I have seen the training of various teams and have also witnessed them standing by doing what they are supposed to do. When a team is "put to work" is the fire scene covered for rescue of our own? Until the next team arrives I would say no. Are members of the firefighting force that are not being utilized for fire suppression dutys being put off to the side? If you do need manpower at the fire scene should the IC call for manpower and allow the fast team to be assigned to their original assignment, after all they have usually done a size up of the structure involved and should have had a game plan in place if the worst happens. Who is the one to make this call? IC? safety officer? At fire scenes in the past 2-3 fast teams have been "put to work". Where do we stand if another incident comes up? Does a team from 20 miles away get activated? Time is an important factor here and we may be not doing the right thing for our own on the fireground. what do you think?f you are a member of a fast team and have been on the fireground as the first team in how do you feel when you are "put to work"?

[RWC130 594]

Hudson,

Very good topic.

Inadequate Manpower On Scene = FASTeams going to work.

Call out for more Manpower not put a FASTeam to work.

Not all departments have FASTeams. Yes, I have also heard FASTeams

being called in from several miles away to cover for the FASTeam that were

put to work. Why?

Are FASTeams "Going to Work" for a Firefighter Down or In Trouble? No!

I fully understand the Manpower Issues but my

question is this....

Should a FASTeam be put to work for Firefighting duties

without another FASTeam being on scene?

No Firefighter wants to stand around, We ALL want to help

but are we hurting ourselves?

What happens when XXX FASTeam is put to work and the

$%&@ hits the fan?

FASTeam is great, So happy to have you Brothers but lets not

abuse them.

[Guest]

This can also be solved with pre-planning. Departments can add a m/a engine or truck along with the fast team for a 1st alarm assignment. Plus it might not be a bad idea to staff your firehouse with apparatus that could be used if the alarm level is raised, cutting down response time. Nobody is going to complain about getting an invite...call them out.

[Guest]

Nobody is going to complain about getting an invite...call them out.

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I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[WHFD318 17]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

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I think this is a great topic. I have heard the same and I will agree, that it seems that Fast Teams go to work when stuff hits the fan. A question I have is what happens in the instance when responding as a mutual aid engine or ladder, the men on the rig are on the fast team of that department?

Great Topic.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I think we need to decide on what "put to work" means. I don't agree with putting them on a line, having them on air or on any task they can't drop at any moment.

I do think the RIT/FAST can be proactive:

Removing bars on windows

throwing ground ladders for upper floor egress

taking door or ensuring proper egress points are available.

These tasks should be second to a RIT/FAST size-up and tool caching. But these tasks can prevent the RIT/FAST from being activated for trapped firefighters.

[Guest]

In these situations what are the circumstances in which the fas teams are being put to work? Could they be put to work because now the operation has gone to surround and drowned? I am a big supporter of rit/fast but if the situation has moved to exterior and everyone is out of the building why tie up another department or area by taking another team. I would like to hear more people’s opinion on this situation, and maybe reasons, if they exist, for why having a fas team at a surround and drowned is warranted. I understand things can still go wrong, like collapses, but do we need to tie up that rig for the an exterior operation.

[CFD320 35]

Sure the first due FAST can be put to work as soon as a replacement team is setup and ready to respond to a mayday transmission. IMO

Edited April 13, 2007 by CFD320

[robert benz 344]

In these situations what are the circumstances in which the fas teams are being put to work?  Could they be put to work because now the operation has gone to surround and drowned?  I am a big supporter of rit/fast but if the situation has moved to exterior and everyone is out of the building why tie up another department or area by taking another team.  I would like to hear more people’s opinion on this situation, and maybe reasons, if they exist, for why having a fas team at a surround and drowned is warranted.  I understand things can still go wrong, like collapses, but do we need to tie up that rig for the an exterior operation.

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yes the FASTEAM should be there until any operation for which they were called is declared under control and units are picking up. if the fasteam is called for m/a it isnt your fire anyway, and you might not have been called to the scene. so stop thinking that the host fire dept owes you something for showing up. do your job, do it right , and go home hopefully happy that nothing went wrong where you had to be deployed.

[DFD801 0]

I think antiquefirelt said it best.... the FAST/RIT should be proactive in making the scene safe: removing bars/locks, clearing exit points, ensuring additional means of egress off the roof and upper floors, doing whatever they can to protect the brothers inside. But while doing this, they always remain ready to respond to an emergency.

However, I do know of instances where the FAST has been put to work on the line, and it was done basically out of necessity. An all volunteer department had a daytime fire, and on this particular day their manpower just wasn't making it to the scene. So when the initial attack crew had to come out, there was noone to back them up, except the FASTeam standing on the lawn. So they took over fire attack while another team was called in.

Im just hoping that departments out there that have manpower issues are anticipating problems like this and are getting mutual aid on the road quickly, for their own protection.

[Remember585 815]

At our most recent FAST response we were asked to assist with the suppression and overhaul effort. We had two search teams, one with 2 the other 3, and our Rescue team of 4 plus a couple of members not on the team there with us. When the Chief asked us I gave him the non-FAST members and two of the FAST members keeping two two-man search teams and one three man rescue team. When the next in Mutual Aid FAST came we got relieved and all of us assisted at the direction of IC.

This has happened to us quite often, and as a Team Rule we will not assist in anything other then FAST responsibilities until relieved unless our actions could be used to prevent an incident.

Most of our team is complacent with just doing the FAST thing, we pride ourselves on being proactive and doing what we can to eliminate problems. It is 2007 and we have been doing this for 9 years, and we still hear s*** because in some peoples' eyes we should do nothing but stand there.

But that is for a whole different topic.....and another time.

[Oswegowind 17]

I am confused...isn't a FASTeam working once they get there? Isn't that their job? They are assigned a specific task and that is to be ready to rescue members of service and they have ways they plan on each scene. They are at work once they are dispatched, working to prevent the LODD of a fire fighter! They are not there to fight the fire or open up the roof, or provide rehab...they are there to save you a$$!!!!! Call in additional companies for fire fighting and let FAST stay alert and ready, don't replace them when they have already come up with a plan and are ready to act if necessary. Just my opinion but come on that is why they were dispatched!

[helicopper 1,050]

I am confused...isn't a FASTeam working once they get there?  Isn't that their job?  They are assigned a specific task and that is to be ready to rescue members of service and they have ways they plan on each scene.  They are at work once they are dispatched, working to prevent the LODD of a fire fighter!  They are not there to fight the fire or open up the roof, or provide rehab...they are there to save you a$$!!!!!  Call in additional companies for fire fighting and let FAST stay alert and ready, don't replace them when they have already come up with a plan and are ready to act if necessary.  Just my opinion but come on that is why they were dispatched!

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That's the way I've always understood it as well. However, the Big Red Machine (FDNY) regularly puts their FAST teams to work at jobs because they're there and then they replace the FAST team.

It's an interesting call - the IC puts the FAST team to work to PREVENT a situation requiring the FAST team in the FAST/RIT capacity. Maybe stretching a second/third line will safeguard the crews already in the building so they don't get trapped or caught in a bad spot. Maybe additional venting or whatever prevents a backdraft/flashover that would injure the guys and necessitate the FAST team doing FAST work.

Looks like a judgement call - as long as the FAST team is promptly replaced (which may be an issue outside NYC - response times, etc.) it isn't a bad one, right?

This is of course unless the replacement FAST team stops at the accident with extrication on the way to the fire.... JUST KIDDING!!!!

You know this also shows that we don't use the staging concept effectively. If you kept a contingency force (say an engine and ladder) in staging for use if conditions change or whatever, the IC wouldn't have to reassign the FAST crew from the FAST assignment to another assignment. I've always said that we (in all the emergency services) constantly operate with JUST ENOUGH RESOURCES to get by and we seldom prepare for contingencies. Call the extra unit(s) early and hope you don't need them instead of using just enough and wishing you had more.

[Guest partyrock]

Thats one thing we haven't learned yet. Keep the FASTeam in place till properly relieved. Calling for another team isn't properly relieved. Down here FAST really does suck in that you truely are just standing there waiting sh!t and fan to catch up. Ground ladders, window bars, and evac routes are all usually well taken care of. It does not take away the importance of the FASTeam, but some people have a problem leaving guys to stand there as other crews come to play. I fully believe in comming in as FAST and leaving as FAST (then again I'm just a hose monkey so what do I know ).

Guys, don't wait for the FASTeam to beat you to it. Ladder the crap out of the building, clear windows, and open paths of egress. The best incidents should leave the FASTeam as clean and rested as they arrived.

If you've got no one else other than the FASTeam out there like your example DFD, then thats a whole other problem that I'm just glad I don't have to deal with.

[hudson144 150]

585 you guys do show up to do your job and you all do it well,the additional training and effort is obvious in many eyes out there,the responsiblity should be on the IC TO MANAGE HIS PEOPLE ON THE FIREGROUND. If there is work to do on the fireground especially when the alarm is still active with smoke/flames and the hazard still exists of firefighters getting jammed up then the original team needs to remain in place. As time goes on and the scene is going to require more manpower then the IC needs more indians than call for them. FDNY has the luxury of calling more to the fire scene and they have standards in place where things are pretty much a standard because of the sog's that are set up. From my original post I still feel that the fast team needs to hold their ground and do what they are there for. Nothin worse than sitting there with your thumb up your *** when everyone else is working. To all the fast teams out there, keep up the good work and hopefully we won't need you!

[Guest]

It's an interesting call - the IC puts the FAST team to work to PREVENT a situation requiring the FAST team in the FAST/RIT capacity. Maybe stretching a second/third line will safeguard the crews already in the building so they don't get trapped or caught in a bad spot. Maybe additional venting or whatever prevents a backdraft/flashover that would injure the guys and necessitate the FAST team doing FAST work.

Looks like a judgement call - as long as the FAST team is promptly replaced (which may be an issue outside NYC - response times, etc.) it isn't a bad one, right?

You hit the nail right on the head. I can't understand why others on this topic can't see the same rational. It's actually common sense. What's really scary though, is it took a COP to figure this out! Maybe you should think of switching Careers.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Great points....I can't agree enough with those that said FAST needs to be proactive. Get rid of a problelm before it becomes a problem.

A few things to keep in mind. Many departments are relying on the arrival of a 6 person FAST. Phoenix FD has shown that it on average takes 12 to rescue 1 down firefighter and that 1 in 5 team members will have a problem themselves. 12 to rescue 1....on average...that is a lot and what if you have a team go down of 2, 3, possibly even 4 firefighter? 6 guys isn't going to do it. We can say all we want about utilizing members on the fireground...however if anyone has been on scene when a member gets lost, injured or has even died, rarely can the emotion, complexity and for a lack of a better term sheer chaos can be controlled. It will be difficult enough to control on scene resources at all then to get a coordinated rescue effort. Get more personnel on scene and get more FAST members on-scene.

585...don't sweat it. I've worked with you, the team and have given initial training to some of your members and you guys do an awesome job. Most teams could learn from how you operate and definately how you train.

Things aren't always black and white. Much like the instance DFD stated...what were they suppose to do? Let the house burn down. As long as the incident action plan is updated in your head and a rescue plan is in place sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. But someone had better learned to take note of personnel staffing on scene a little sooner next time.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Like I said, I'm comfortable assigning tasks to the FAST that can be dropped. That is to say they are not critical to the moment. The requirements are that they can not tax the team too hard and they cannot require them to be on air or far from the tool cache, and the assignements may only ne done after a full FAST size-up. But most of us do not have enough people to do all the things that need to be done during a good active interior firefight. By the time I had enough people to throw ground ladders, remove bars and maintain a decent FAST on the lawn the fire would be out or have gone defensive! Sure they will be slightly less rested, but ready to respond nonetheless.

For many of us the reality is that we can't afford to have 4 trained firefighters standing fast (pun intended) on the lawn, when they can be doing proactive things to help ensure they're not needed. Again, I must stress their immediate ability to drop whatever they're doing, retrieve the requisite tools from the prepositioned tool cashe and go to work as the rescue team.

[irishfire2491 24]

Great Post i alway wonder WHY they called a FAST to respond and put them to work when you have a engine and a ladder on standby right next to you, To tell you the truth i never knew what a fast team did and how importain they were on scene till i taken FAST a week ago. Why do they take the fast team that has set up and did there 360 and then place them to work on the fire/ overhaul when it takes appox 15 mins for another Fast to get dispatch get a crew and then respond and then set up on scene and then do a 360 again. What happens in that time frame when the old fast goes to work and the new fast team is responding. Yea I agree Fast is not always the most interesting job on a fire scene but it is made to help us and we go around it !!!

[Monty 35]

Personally, I like the sound of the 'On Deck' approach from Phoenix, but we'll have to wait a few more years for that to become traditional elsewhere before we see it round here .

It occurred to me this morning of a couple of oxymoron's in the fire service, 'FAST going to work' being one, as stated previously, they should be going to work when they get there, doing extended size up, laddering if necessary, removing hazards from the scene, paying attention to what's happening on the scene).

Another one, is the 'Respond with Caution' (as opposed to the normal respond with recklessness )

Back to the original question I suppose, no they shouldn't, at least not without someone on scene to fulfill the FAST / RIT role.

Perhaps some of the Chiefs on the board here could bring this up with the County and get people at the top level talking about it?

[Guest partyrock]

Personally, I like the sound of the 'On Deck' approach from Phoenix, but we'll have to wait a few more years for that to become traditional elsewhere before we see it round here  .

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Care to elaborate. I think you're refering to the 10 minute rule phoenix has instituted with a crew on stand-by for any "on air" tasks. The on deck area is equiped with some rit equipment and acts as a fast response rit/relief crew for everyone operating inside the structure.

[Monty 35]

Care to elaborate.  I think you're refering to the 10 minute rule phoenix has instituted with a crew on stand-by for any "on air" tasks.  The on deck area is equipped with some rit equipment and acts as a fast response rit/relief crew for everyone operating inside the structure.

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This stems from the Brett Tarver's LODD 3/14/2001. An article by PFD DC Hinton was in Fire Rescue Aug 05 goes in to detail about what they have done.

Essentially after running some tests and training they found that it took 8 minutes to find a firefighter with RIT once a mayday had been made. They now use a system where everyone is trained to perform as a RIT member, they have enough resources on hand, and they rotate crews through the incident. I believe pretty much it is first crew goes interior, then a crew goes On Deck, then when the first crew comes out, the On Deck crew goes inside and the original goes to rehab, another crew takes over On Deck. Then the crew from rehab rotates as needed in to the On Deck role. I don't think that they necessarily have a one to one match between On Deck and crews inside, but they do tend to have multiple On Deck crews placed strategically around the incident.

Their SOP's are online (Click the red number to see the actual SOP), including the On Deck section.

Another couple of articles are at Fire Times and Firehouse forums.

I guess two things required to make it work anywhere is having sufficiently trained fire fighters, and secondly having enough resources on scene to have the multiple On Deck crews in place that may be required.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I don't like the "On Deck" rule for some of the same reasons I don't like seeing the FAST reassigned. The original FAST crew has the best situational awareness because they have been developing and evolving their plans while watching the incident from the time they arrive. Another crew must start over evey time. The "0n Deck" principle can change RIT many times in an incident. To me this diminishes the RIT's capablities. I want guys who are assigned to be fully functionaly aware. They've see the fires growth or hopefully stop, they've seen crews entering and exiting, they are more familiar with the scene.

In fact isn't Phoenix's "On Deck" basically what everyone did before RIT/FAST? The IC always had a crew on standby ready to go to any task. So Phoenix tags a name to it and we go backward from assigned, trained RIT to the next company in is "on deck"? I don't buy it.

[CPAGE 2]

Here in N.J. (Bergen Co) My dept. we use the system of a M/A FAST on the W/F signal but alot of the time we use the 3rd engine till we het the M/A truck in. We also have all members trained so at any time we may dispatch an engine or the ladder as the 2nd or 3rd FAST unit. The first team in should have all the tools and equipment set up i/f/o the bldg if they go to work for fire duty they should leave the stuff and let the 2nd due fast use it and so on if they go to work. I also have heard some areas dispatch 2 fast team on the w/f signal may not be a bad thing.

Just my 2 cents.

Chris

[Monty 35]

I don't like the "On Deck" rule for some of the same reasons I don't like seeing the FAST reassigned. The original FAST crew has the best situational awareness because they have been developing and evolving their plans while watching the incident from the time they arrive. Another crew must start over evey time. The "0n Deck" principle can change RIT many times in an incident. To me this diminishes the RIT's capablities. I want guys who are assigned to be fully functionaly aware. They've see the fires growth or hopefully stop, they've seen crews entering and exiting, they are more familiar with the scene.

In fact isn't Phoenix's "On Deck" basically what everyone did before RIT/FAST? The IC always had a crew on standby ready to go to any task. So Phoenix tags a name to it and  we go backward from assigned, trained RIT to the next company in is "on deck"? I don't buy it.

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Actually, a couple years ago I heard Chief Brunacini in Vegas talking about the subject. One of the benefits he cited was that as the incident progresses, the 'On Deck' crews have actually been inside and have knowledge of the structure, layout hazards etc.

Certainly in the current system a true RIT/FAST should have great situational awareness, prior to RIT/FAST I think it was a lot more haphazard. In my dept at the time, we kept crews in staging, there was no one assigned with equipment, ready to go, tasked to be ready to rescue firefighters. I think this is one big difference with On Deck.

I also definitely think that we are much better having RIT/FAST than not, and that there should always be that coverage at a working incident.

[AFS1970 504]

For the most part I also think we should avoid assigning the RIT to non RIT duties, especially if the situation gets rapidly worse. Isn't that exactly when the RIT needs to be at the top of their game?

However it really all boils down to knowing your resources both on scene and in quarters. If you know your next in RIT is close and can respond quickly, then you can back fill the RIT. If your next due RIT is a good distance away and will have a delayed response for any reason, then you need to keep the original RIT in place. Don't be afraid to call for more units, you can always send them back, but only call for units you realistically think you are going to utilize.

[Guest partyrock]

Unless I'm mistaken (a very real possibility) I thought the on-deck team roll was as the search team. Packaging and extrication were still handled by the FASTeam.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Unless I'm mistaken (a very real possibility) I thought the on-deck team roll was as the search team.  Packaging and extrication were still handled by the FASTeam.

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I also cannot remember the exact policies as the original few articles I read detailed.

But, I'd say that while having previous knowledge of the inside of the building may be nice, how long before these guys are ready to work as the RIT? If they've done other interior jobs then are assigned to RIT, aren't they beat? This also does not take care of the first 15-20 minutes when the majority of our jobs are the most dangerous.

Also, in my view I think I'd like the dedicated RIT to conduct the search and then direct a more conventional crew in with specifically needed equipment to facilitate the extrication.

I agree we're much better off than ever before. We take a much more proactive stance on being ready to rescue our own, as well as training our FFers on how not to need RIT and then finally truly training and equiping ourselves to rescue firefighters.

[hudson144 150]

SMOKE SCREEN= 2 man engine co. assigned as the fast team??? when you read the PHOENIX report why waste the manpower when you don't have adaquate manpower from the get go!

[antiquefirelt 994]

SMOKE SCREEN= 2 man engine co. assigned as the fast team??? when you read the PHOENIX report why waste the manpower when you don't have adaquate manpower from the get go!

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This was a common sentiment around the time the Phoenix report came out. The logic is slightly off though I'd say. So we don't have 12 guys for RIT so we say screw it and let trapped members fend for themselves? What about at an ordinary single family dwelling? Can a 2 man FAST find the member and bring a spare bottle?

I took a great RIT program in Providence a few years back. One of the rotations our crews (6-8 guys) sat for about an hour and a half talking to D/C John Norman and Butch Cobb. It was a great chance to talk about what each dept. did or didn't do, why, training, etc. One small career dept. that was represented said they had no RIT due to staffing. D/C Norman asked about M/A? "No, we don't believe they have anyone trained" was the reason given. (career vs/ vol. also). So, D/C Norman asks if the M/A depts are SCBA certified? "Yes". Well, wouldn't you like 3-4 SCBA certified guys on the lawn if you were trapped? Vs. Nothing? Point well taken!!! Most of us have holes in the plan somewhere but not doing anything is just asking for trouble.