WARNING - Controversial Topic Ahead

[xfirefighter484x 234]

***This may very well be a controversial subject, so all those who choose to read on, be forewarned***

DISCLAIMER: This topic IS NOT, and WILL NOT become a personalized bashing session for anyone. If it starts to go that way, I will have it deleted.

it's 2007!  what's wrong w/ these damn southerners??

←

Reading another thread got me to thinking, and finally to shed some light on a lot of issues we face today.

Today's fire service. ESPECIALLY THE NORTHEAST. As I have heard some wise men say "200 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress".

The Northeast seems to be one of the most resilient, and most resistant to change. It is 2007, and I don't remember EXACTLY where I heard this, whether it was on here, or in another place, yet NYS managed to kill MORE firefighters alone, than the rest of the "civilized/industrialized" world this past year.

Who loves the New York, or Ben Franklin style helmets?

As is said by the name, "Ben Franklin", the helmet gets its styling and shape from back in the days of, you guessed it, Ben Franklin.

Has anyone noticed some of the pictures of fire helmets in Europe? They have fully encapsulation of the head, top to about neck region. Communication devices, i.e. radios, earbud speakers, can be integrated into them. Foll safety for the head.

Will you EVER see them in the US? Maybe, but not the Northeast for probably another 200 years. Why, you ask?

Tradition. Egos.

We would rather see ourselves stand out, be "stylish", fit into the conformity of past practices than look down the road, for things in the long run. This may not be true for the spec-ing out of fire apparatus, one of the things we seem to be good at.

On the topic of fire apparatus. This is not taking sides for either, you will understand in the next sentence. Why are most fire apparatus red?

There are many explanations out there, one of which I heard was, "Red was originally the cheapest, or one of the cheapest colors of paint, and that is why the color was originally that." Yet again, a tradition that stands to this day, and is a much controverted issue.

Yellow fire trucks, LIME (there ya go x635) trucks, yes, red fire trucks, blue fire trucks. Does the fire care? Ask the next time you see it.

Color of bunker gear. Another issue that many debate. Pros of one color, pros of another. Cons of either. Black turnout gear. Why are there so many "Ninja Firefighters" out there? Why would you choose anything that DECREASES your visibility. Black gear, black helmets, black boots. Yes, we all have reflective striping, but I am sure without NFPA, we wouldn't have put it it on us. Why? Because it isn't traditional.

These days, we need so many organizations to step in and give us regulations and standards because we are too dumb to take care of ourselves.

This is a blanket statement. There are people out there smart enough, I like to consider myself one of them.

I am sure there were fits thrown, fights ensued, when the transition from horse-drawn to motorized fire apparatus came about. Why?

Tradition.

How many fire departments in our area go out and preach about fire sprinklers, especially in the homes? Foam? Many a time I have heard senior fire personnel saying "Oh, I believe that takes away firefighters jobs."

Really? So you would rather see someones possessions get lost, or lives lost, rather than simple inventions can do WONDERS.

I do not have all the facts on this, and hopefully someone here can enlighten me to how it works down in Westchester.

How many departments are there in Westchester? What is that average area covered by each district/department.

I know it is present in some areas that several departments have minuscule areas of coverage, along with their neighboring ones. Why not join together, have a stronger, unified, more organized unit? Why not?

Tradition. Pride. EGOS!

Do I take pride in being in the fire service?

Most definitely, I would not consider anything else for a career.

Do I feel we need to show some traditional values?

Most certainly. It is our heritage. It is where we came from. But there comes a point, a very fine line that we NEED to draw in the sand, and become more progressive.

ITS 2007 people!! Tradition has its places. In museums for the most part.

VACGUY, I want to thank you for making a statement (yes, not meant in my respect) that was one that can hopefully open our eyes.

I really hope everyone takes this for an eye opener, and just a statement of facts and opinions. Do I still prefer a lot of the things I have mentioned? Sure. Is it right? Probably not.

I restate here, DISCLAIMER: This topic IS NOT, and WILL NOT become a personalized bashing session for anyone. If it starts to go that way, I will have it deleted.

Edited April 10, 2007 by xfirefighter484x

[xfirefighter484x 234]

If anyone has anything CONSTRUCTIVE to add to this, please do.

I am looking for others feelings and input on this.

[x648eng119 2]

Very well said. It's something that I'm sure many people seldom think of, but you made a lot of very good points. (Except the whole LIME fire truck thing!! J/K x635!)

[BIGRED1 71]

In looking at the picture of the Euro-Style helmet, i believe that it due to the construction of the buildings. i remember reading a article about the differences. I am not really a fan of the euro style cause in case of a emergency you cant break the seal on your face. I know that by not having the brim it eliminates the chance of getting entangled, but by having it keeps the falling embers from falling in your neck. As per truck color, i agree WHO CARES? as long as it has four wheel and gets the job done i could care less. ( i do prefer Red, though ) I think the Black gear is just the way it is. it is black even in some parts of England and Europe. I know it is tradition and some guys "just like it that way", but i don't see why it is such and issue. every scene should be properly lit and roads should be closed if it is a car accident. Black is what we wear here in the Northeast and that is Tradition. i am sure the Tan color might be more visible, but the black absorbs more sun in the winter and will keep you warmer. I now this is not scientific but is true. it sucks in the summer but most of our year is a bit cooler.

[ems731 0]

in regards to the color of turnout gear, i know that some agencies do not use a tan color because the ems agency uses tan turnout gear at fires and this will help you tell the difference between fire and ems at a scene. i believe this is try in NYC. i once heard it referred to as when you look for ems you "scan for the tan".

[Guest partyrock]

NYS did not have more fire fighter fatalities than the rest of the industrialized world. It really worries me when people repeat those kind of outrageous statistics without questioning them. NY had 9 or 10, please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuning every other country in the industrialized world had one death we're talking dozens more than NY.

Fire fighter fatalities is a tough statistic to compare. As eclemente pointed out the US and the rest of the world fight fire very differently. The biggest reason is building construction. The US is largeryly wood frame and europe is mostly masonry. Wood frame requires more agressive and labor intensive tactics if you want to save structures and their contents.

This also results in different equipment. Yeah, the New York style helmets may be a bit of throwback to yester year, but even in more progressive western depts with their metro style helmets they retained the brims too help protect the neck. There are arguments against the wide brims, but non can come up with a real risk. That stupid hook on the top of the helmet to hold Co. shields needs to go, but I have never experianced my helmet getting tangled where a "metro" wouldn't.

Apperatus color does not matter. If they can't see the lights then the color won't do any better. The study I saw that came close to making a good argument actually advocated darker trucks becuase they stood out more in bright sunlight, but the difference was only statisitcally significant and would be unlikely to make a real impact.

Yeah, our gear is dyed black for tradition. Tan is usually the natural color of the fabric, and while the dye does shorten the life of gear they all get the same expiration date. To me, this says it doesn't matter. The damage is not significant enough.

Our equipment is up to snuff for protecting us in the job we do, despite our resistance to change. Yes if it wasn't for big brother out there we'd probably still be trying to do this with rubber boots and riveted hose, but big brotehr has taken care of this.

HEART ATTACKS AND MVAS ARE KILLING US.

We need to change our procedures and our thinking.

[Guest partyrock]

in regaurds to the color of turnout gear, i know that some agencies do not use a tan color because the ems agency uses tan turnout gear at fires and this will help you tell the differnce between fire and ems at a scene. i believe this is try in NYC. i once heard it refurred to as when u look for ems you "scan for the tan".

←

Fire came first. We wear black, so they get the twinkie suits.

[jd783 64]

We don't wear them because we don't want to look like dicks

[gss131 212]

We don't wear them because we don't want to look like dicks

←

[xfirefighter484x 234]

The only thing missing is the dirty "CAFS" word.

←

How many fire departments in our area go out and preach about fire sprinklers, especially in the homes? Foam? Many a time I have heard senior fire personnel saying "Oh, I believe that takes away firefighters jobs."

Really? So you would rather see someones possessions get lost, or lives lost, rather than simple inventions can do WONDERS.

←

Well, I did mention foam in general, just lacked the CAFS relation.

[Guest]

ha! no prob xfirefighter484x.

changing with the times is always hard with a service based on tradition ie - firefighting. it has soooo many great things that are based on incredible traditions from parades to LODD ceremonies. but, very little has changed over the years to actual firefighting. don't get me wrong, i know of the things that have changed; but it's not much. i was a firefighter for 5 yrs, but resigned bc i enjoy ems more and i have all the respect for firefighters, so don't get me wrong, when it comes to the FD , i don't know everything, but i do know change can occur for the greater good! ems, being a medical field, is always changing. ie, in the past 3 years i think the AHA CRP Protocol changed every year. i have to get a new CPR card years before it expires. change is hard, but if researched, tested and proper training drills completed, it can make our lives safer and how could argue w/ that??

[Guest]

oh and xfirefighter484x...i wasn't even gonna go there with egos because i tend to say more than i should and as it is i heard my emtbravo account may be getting deleted!!! im tryin to be so good, but i have soo much to say!! i'll just go watch tv!

[Guest partyrock]

There we go. No we're into something. CAFS is a great technology that has been around entirely too long not to be more wide spread.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

oh and xfirefighter484x...i wasn't even gonna go there with egos because i tend to say more than i should and as it is i heard my emtbravo account may be getting deleted!!!  im tryin to be so good, but i have soo much to say!!  i'll just go watch tv!

←

Many times, ego is the major hold up. No one seems to want to admit when they are wrong.

The truth can hurt. There is nothing wrong with stating the obvious.

[Guest]

Many times, ego is the major hold up. No one seems to want to admit when they are wrong.

The truth can hurt. There is nothing wrong with stating the obvious.

←

100% second that

[Capejake72 8]

if I may, the 200 years of Tradition unimpeded by Progress was a slogan seen in Backdraft, dont think it's unique to Chicago though as I remember my instructor at the academy saying it (he was old school too)

some things have changed, most for the better ( i remember riding back step, and long rubber coats)

I have seen the euro style helmets, I think MSA has an agreement with Gallet (the fighter pilot style one) some canadian departments use them, and i see them on ebay every now and then, but i think its a popularity thing too, most everyone wears a helmet from cairns or bullard (or one of the others) how many times have you seen someone on the east coast wearing a Phoenix (LA style)

color of the trucks is somewhat traditional, I think that might have more to do with the acceptance of the non traditional colors and visiblity than mere science ie: if your department has always had red, or white, or whatever color, then your citizens know that fire trucks in that town/city are always (whatever color)

as for our turnouts, maybe the tan of the new gear is more visible, less heat absorbent or what have you, but as long as it protects me, it could be fluorescent blue for all i care (though i admit, the black is traditonal and look good with any of the reflective striping)

[FFD941 20]

Wow what a topic...

Start from the top though, and read straight through....I think I hear tradition speaking!!

[eckyphats 0]

I agree on alot of the posts, But theres nothing wrong with having pride and tradition

[Remember585 815]

We can be as progressive as we want, but we must always respect our history. I know we all say that the fire service is too "reactive" and not "proactive" enough, but if you think about it and take it all in, you'll find that we do learn from our mistakes and those of us who care enough to prevent it from happening again train ourselves and our colleagues to avoid repeating history.

We'll never be perfect, it just won't happen. But there is no reason why we can't hang on to tradition while making the advances neccessary to better serve our people. A helmet - regardless of it's shape, color or style - isn't doing you any good if you aren't wearing it in accordance to the manufacturer's recommendations. The color of a fire engine makes no difference if the guy behind the wheel isn't driving it safely.

We are our own worst enemies and unless we can change the habits we have as humans we can't overcome our flaws are firefighters.

[efd184 59]

The Northeast seems to be one of the most resilient, and most resistant to change. It is 2007, and I don't remember EXACTLY where I heard this, whether it was on here, or in another place, yet NYS managed to kill MORE firefighters alone, than the rest of the "civilized/industrialized" world this past year.

[url=http://firefightingnews.com

sorry search 2006 LODD in NY

check out this link it may help you see who died and what they died from.

Edited April 11, 2007 by efd184

[xfirefighter484x 234]

http://firefightingnews.com/advancedSearchResult.cfm

check out this link it may help you see who died and what they died from.

←

Came up with an error message.

[Guest]

Here is the link to a fire department in Pennsylvania just outside of Allentown and Bethlehem. They have adopted "Euro" Gear, sort of....

http://www.sewyco-fc.org/

[efd184 59]

Came up with an error message.

←

sorry i fixed it

[Monty 35]

NYS did not have more fire fighter fatalities than the rest of the industrialized world.  It really worries me when people repeat those kind of outrageous statistics without questioning them.  NY had 9 or 10, please correct me if I'm wrong.  Assuning every other country in the industrialized world had one death we're talking dozens more than NY.

Fire fighter fatalities is a tough statistic to compare.  As eclemente pointed out the US and the rest of the world fight fire very differently.  The biggest reason is building construction.  The US is largeryly wood frame and europe is mostly masonry.  Wood frame requires more agressive and labor intensive tactics if you want to save structures and their contents. 

This also results in different equipment.  Yeah, the New York style helmets may be a bit of throwback to yester year, but even in more progressive western depts with their metro style helmets they retained the brims too help protect the neck.  There are arguments against the wide brims, but non can come up with a real risk.  That stupid hook on the top of the helmet to hold Co. shields needs to go, but I have never experianced my helmet getting tangled where a "metro" wouldn't.

←

From the USFA Database, there were 16 NY deaths in 2005, now admittedly, there are 4 in 2004 and 5 in 2003 and 6 in 2002. there appear to have been 15 last year and so far this year there are 4 death notices.

Now, I don't what happened in 2005 and after compared to 2002, 2003 and 2004 but that's a big jump. I'm sure there are states that haven't had any LODD for a year or more, if it hasn't already been done maybe someone should study the different states and come up with the numbers of LODD per measurement (population, size, income ...) and see if anything can be found from those, and why different states may have different results.

To the original comment, it would seem more reasonable to say there are more NY LODD's than any other industrialized country. Trying to find international LODD figures is tough, I tried IAFF but it's not really international, seems to be US with a little of Canda thrown in for good measure (bit like the World in 'World Series' )

I did find some stuff on the IAFC site that among other things shows 1 LODD in Sweeden in 7 years. It also mentions World Fire Statistics Center which has a lot of stats (no surprise), but not LODD.

Also found a paper that may be interesting, but part of it says there were 13 fatalities between 1990 and 2000 (in the UK). Maybe it's harder to find LODD stats outside of the US because it is not so much of an issue in other places? I'd also be interested in seeing stats on FF injuries, I know they're reported on nfirs but I haven't seen much reported about those, in my mind those may be even worse than losing 2 FF's a week.

Now, my personal opinion is that maybe where deaths are so rare in some of these countries is that the Fire Fighting organisation is morecentrally organised. Rules are implemented more commonly (we all know about home rule ....), mandatory retirement ages, universal wearing of seatbelts, etc, etc. Maybe as someone said, give it another 200 years - probably a lot of other countries have had fire protection for 400+ years now ....

Edited April 11, 2007 by Monty

[xfirefighter484x 234]

To the original comment, it would seem more reasonable to say there are more NY LODD's than any other industrialized country.

←

You may have hit the nail on the head. The probability that THOSE were the words said (that NYS alone lost more than any other nation) is quite high, and I mis-interpreted it, or the other individual I heard say it had their figures askew, and I just picked up on it!

Thank you for bringing that to light Monty!

-xfirefighter484x

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Here is the link to a fire department in Pennsylvania just outside of Allentown and Bethlehem.  They have adopted "Euro" Gear, sort of....

http://www.sewyco-fc.org/

←

Definitely a fan of seeing it make an emergence here. Am I going to go out and personally outfit myself with this stuff? Not economically feasible. The whole poor college student thing applies. If it were mandated, or even offered as an alternative, would I embrace it! Certainly!!

[FFD941 20]

Oh Come on xfirefighter484x... I'm sure the girlfriend wouldn't mind one or two less dinners...

[Guest]

are you kidding me? what does the style or color of your gear have to do with any of the deaths you are refering to? If nothing else NY leads that list due to the fact that NYC is the busiest and deadliest fire department in the world...why the deadliest? It certainly isn't because of black gear or leather helmets...gimme a break...wear whatever you want, but don't be fooled into thinking that if you wear a different helmet or fully encapsulate yourself you are immune to the dangers of fighting a structure fire...there actually is a reason that North-East fire departments are respected around the world...and its not machismo

[Guest partyrock]

are you kidding me? what does the style or color of your gear have to do with any of the deaths you are refering to? If nothing else NY leads that list due to the fact that NYC is the busiest and deadliest fire department in the world...why the deadliest? It certainly isn't because of black gear or leather helmets...gimme a break...wear whatever you want, but don't be fooled into thinking that if you wear a different helmet or fully encapsulate yourself you are immune to the dangers of fighting a structure fire...there actually is a reason that North-East fire departments are respected around the world...and its not machismo

←

As much work as FDNY does, luckily its not the the reason why NYS has so many ff fatalities. Lets look at what is really killing us. Its not our helmets and equipment. We die in MVA's and from heart attacks.

The majority of american ff deaths are carried by volleys. So the argument is, most ff's are volleys so this would make sense. Who does more work? In general paid ff's do more work then the volleys. So, why are so many volleys answering the final alarm?

As ALS pointed out in the "How old is too old" thread, age is directly related to cardiac deaths. Lets face it volleys rarely have a maximum age. There is also a reluctancy to tell a guy who's been around for 30 years that he needs to step aside before he kills himself. While alot of depts have annual physical exams, how many of you guys truely believe they are riggorus enough to protect guys from their own egos?

The other big cause of death is MVA's. Volleys are once again more vulnerable to these fatalities. You guys who respond to the station or to the scene for each alarm put more high risk miles in than guys all ready in the station. I believe we are 5x more likely to be involved in an MVA while responding in emergency mode, and lets be honest reported structure fires turn those blue lights into red lights real quick (I'm not criticizing, I'm just stating the truth of my experiances). On top of that you have less time behind the wheel as your average volley. I'm just speculating this point, but it seems like tankers are more likely to be operate dby volleys than paid paid ff's. These are hands down the most dangerous rigs on the road.

My solution (paid and volley). Save your brothers life, insult him if you have to, but if he's a lard a** get him in the gym or off the rig. If he's getting long in the tooth get him into a training roll so he can pass on the knowledge he has. Push your union and dept to require more stringent physicals to keep guys honest about their capabilities. Drivers out there. I can't preach about speed. I've got a lead foot too. Until I fix that I'll just preach seatbelts, practice, seatbelts, training, and SEATBELTS. I hate the seatbelts on my rig. They flat out suck and are actually difficult to use. Its still not an excuse. If you aren't driving you rig on a regular basis you need to be out there practcing every chance you get. As long as your out there practicing, when was the last time you went through EVOC? Have you done an EVOC course with your vehicle. These things not only save lives but they also save money and time responding to an alarm. Imagine facing double parked cars with complete confidence because you've seen how tight you can get on the cone course. You don't back into the rig that parked entirely too close at the parade or multi alarmer because you know exactly how far back your tailboard reaches out. Most guys forget over time how small their vehicles really are, and it never hurts to be reminded of your vehicles capabilties and limitations.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

are you kidding me? what does the style or color of your gear have to do with any of the deaths you are refering to? If nothing else NY leads that list due to the fact that NYC is the busiest and deadliest fire department in the world...why the deadliest? It certainly isn't because of black gear or leather helmets...gimme a break...wear whatever you want, but don't be fooled into thinking that if you wear a different helmet or fully encapsulate yourself you are immune to the dangers of fighting a structure fire...there actually is a reason that North-East fire departments are respected around the world...and its not machismo

←

Blckcloud, I was not making any assumptions, or drawing any conclusions. I was merely pointing out many different observations, and some opinions.

I never stated that any one firefighter has had his/her life saved by the color of their turnout gear alone, or the sole fact that their helmet is not fully encapsulating. I just see that some of the advances that can be integrated with such things is overshadowed by the fact that

we don't want to look like dicks.

And to be honest, yes, there is TONS of machismo in the fire service. I am sorry, but the whole debate that went on as to "Nomex hoods vs. ears as thermometers" didn't seem to make sense to me. Sure, it seemed like a good viable option in the past, and yet many more experienced firefighters still adhere to this way of thinking, because it is how THEY WERE TAUGHT!

Many of the younger guys I know have picked up on that trend from the older more seasoned guys, and not for the reason of gaging the temperature, but more for their sense of "hey, the older guys do it, so let me do it." This violates their training from day one of FFI (well, whatever day it actually is, I do not know) when they tell you to fully cover yourself. Try passing FFI without doing that. They will laugh and tell you no.

My feelings, wear FULL PPE!!! If you are "afraid of going in too far", then you probably do not belong inside of a fire, because your training should teach you to KNOW WHEN YOU HAVE GONE FAR ENOUGH! If you do not have the sense to sit back and think "hey, I better watch out or I can get stuck too deep", then you do not belong inside of a fire in the first place.

Also, I have the utmost respect for the member of FDNY, and all other fire departments for that matter, but is there REALLY any excuse for us to lose ANY firefighters?

Give me ONE GOOD REASON that we should just sit back and think "Oh, yea, we are going to lose a few, it comes with the job." And not just due to fires. Look at accidents? What about that firefighter in Chicago just about a month ago. Going TO a call. We feel the need to drive Mach 100 to calls, when it may save us just a minute in most cases (depending on your jurisdiction, I can not speak for EVERYONE).

What about cardiac issues? Do you see the majority, key word MAJORITY, of fire departments MANDATING any type of physical fitness programs? I don't.

That is our #1 enemy. Gone are the days that Mr. Fire was our biggest foe. It is now ourselves. Lack of a drive to maintain ourselves. Tell me how many other professions may require a person to go from 0% (sleeping) exertion, to 100% exertion (a fire perhaps)? Add that with a terrible eating regimen (whatever is closest, quickest, and cheapest, is usually the WORST for us).

So maybe tradition to specific ideals is not the biggest issue here. as Remember585 said very well:

I know we all say that the fire service is too "reactive" and not "proactive" enough, but if you think about it and take it all in, you'll find that we do learn from our mistakes and those of us who care enough to prevent it from happening again train ourselves and our colleagues to avoid repeating history.

Maybe a bit more progressiveness is in order? And do we REALLY learn from our mistakes? Has the number of FF LODDs decreased? Some years we go up a few, some years we go down a few, but we remain consistently around just over 100.

Have we gotten better? In some areas, yes, we have. Are we anywhere near where we should be? Not by a long shot.

Edited April 12, 2007 by xfirefighter484x