How old is too old?

[Guest]

Seeing the below article on Firehouse.com has me thinkng. How old is too old to still be an active volunteer firefighter?

Ohio Volunteer Collapsed in Station

Firehouse.com News

A volunteer firefighter in Ohio died late last month after collapsing in his station.

Steve Olinik, 65, was talking with fellow personnel at the Rome Volunteer Fire Company when he suddenly collapsed, according to a report posted by the U.S. Fire Administration.

He had responded to the station at 5:23 p.m. on March 29 for a grass fire, a mutual aid call.

Olinik died the following day. Death has been attributed to a heart attack.

Edited April 7, 2007 by nutty1

[HFD750 6]

Was he active or just going to the fire house during an alarm? We have plenty of older members that come around,not to the scene,but they will come to the firehouse if there is a call. I guess some of them just want to be around I don't really see an issue with that. They hang out upstairs watch t.v. etc... Just my thoughts on this one.

[Guest]

Was he active or just going to the fire house during an alarm? We have plenty of older members that come around,not to the scene,but they will come to the firehouse if there is a call. I guess some of them just want to be around I don't really see an issue with that. They hang out upstairs watch t.v. etc... Just my thoughts on this one.

←

Sounds to me as if he responded due to the call. I am not saying they can not hang out, heck they should be allowed to especially life members. I am just asking at what age is the time to hang it up and not respond to a call.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I would say it all depends on what duties the person is expected to handle. Should a 65 yr old be working a line in a structure fire? Perhaps not. But should they take care of "station duties" that would free up other FF's that ARE interior. Why not.

[Guest]

hey i am a young'in but i have learned a few things, one being "old is better than new." i don't think you can make a clear cut line. there are some 80 year olds in better shape than some 50 year olds. it all depends on the person.

[ENG47INE 17]

Like already said it all depends on the person my Grandfather is 75 years old and just got in as car 2371 in Plesantville.

[JBE 328]

It's up to the person. Age is only a number at times. Hopefully the person will know when it is time to step aside before they have to be told to step aside.

[Capejake72 8]

I would have to say the age would all depend on the physical condition of the person, and then what duties you could expect them to do, work the radio, maybe drive and pump the truck, set up equipment, etc., let their age and expeience work for you, dont expect them to take the tip or vent the roof, but there are many other things that they could do to allow younger members to do the hard nasty work

[Stepjam 118]

Well, I'm 44. After a job or training, I shake my head and say: "This is a young man's job!" I'm no Jack LaLanne, but I'm not exactly a crusty old slug either. The job just beats the hell out of the body, especially over time. It's worse if you spend your downtime sitting around instead of trying to keep fit.

I think that alot of the fatal MI's out there happen to guys in their forties and fifties. The AARP guys often have enough sense to know their limitations and instead act as fire police or instructors. They are good to have around. The problem of keeping enough "young" guys in the volunteer agencies is only going to get worse.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Stepjam

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Was he active or just going to the fire house during an alarm? We have plenty of older members that come around,not to the scene,but they will come to the firehouse if there is a call. I guess some of them just want to be around I don't really see an issue with that. They hang out upstairs watch t.v. etc... Just my thoughts on this one.

On average 100 LODD's every year, heart related leads the cause every year. How many of us that pay attention to how many, who, what, where, when and why in regard to LODD's every year, keep hearing how we need to get the number down, we need to figure this out. There are consortiums, symposiums, conferences, meetings, panels, articles, and most of all pure reactionary RHETORIC. You want to lower the numbers...lets look at some of the ages of those having heart attacks. Lets get real about whether or not you deserve to receive the same benefits if you're not wearing you seatbelt and you die. Don't take offense to this but some of you...I really have to ask "you are kidding me right?" Do some of you really take a look at the numbers every year of what the ages are and what they are doing when they die? They aren't on the knob, on the roof, pulling ceilings. How some of you seem to think that they all are involved in the "nasty work" is somewhat trivial to me. They are dying arriving, returning, directing traffic, working pumps, standing around and then arriving home. Wake up fire service and start paying attention and getting involved in detail.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm at work and a call comes in and I'm in the firehouse and am not on the assignment, I do not get "credit" for that call. Why should someone who "responds to the firehouse" get the same benefits if they have a heart attack or stroke, then the person whom is at a scene actively taking part in suppression activities has a stroke, heart attack, gets trapped/caught, etc.? What "station duties" exist that by someone else doing would "free up" an interior member?

Let them drive and work the pump? The majority or close to it of Responding/returning LODD's causes are cardiac related.

Why is that we have mandatory retirement ages for career firefighters, but no such action on the volunteer side. Or that if you are found to have a heart problem or defect you are gone in most departments on disability or forced to retire, but no such action again present for volunteer members.

It's very simple to say age is a number, there are some 80 year olds in better shape then some 50 year olds. etc. Fact is, outwardly you may be able to make that comment. But anyone who has studies A & P and biology knows that aging is a process that you can't stop. I know of a couple 70 year olds who run 10K's and guess what...one of them had to have bypass a couple of years ago. Its never a problem until that one moment. And if the 50 year old, looks in worse shape then a 60, 70, 80 year old and is still an "active" "interior firefighter" then your department's physical program if you have one, (no offense here either) sucks, or you need to get one as REQUIRED BY LAW!

This is a sensitive subject, unfortunately as most of you know I'm not all that sensitive nor compassionate. I'm all for having senior members around, I'm just not for the numbers we put up every year. We can find something that is not suppression/scene/call based at all to keep active. But we need to get serious about this issue intellectually and common sense wise....far to often we allow the tail to wag the dog because of emotion on far to many issues.

[Guest]

Y they go to firehouse durning a call and not go on the call? I dont understand that LOL

[Guest MRK303]

Y they go to firehouse durning a call and not go on the call? I dont understand that LOL

←

Not everybody is able to ride the truck. Many times there are people who like to help out in-house (clean the trucks when they come back, repack hose, clean tools, paperwork). If you get back from a job, you're very thankful for those people who are back in the station helping clean up.

Edited April 8, 2007 by MRK303

[Guest]

Cool

[x635 4,066]

If career firefighters are forced to retire at 62, then why is the volunteers different?

After 62 as a social member...but...??

[Guest]

Let's be honest - 90 year old grandpa is not gonna fight a fire that moves faster than he runs.

However - I think we are all kidding ourselves in one respect. A 30 year old can be fighting a fire and have a heart attack, just like a 50 or 60 year old can. While the chances may be higher with a higher age, a man who is willing to be a firefighter and put his life on the line should be able to do so.

With that being said, from an FIRE/EMS standpoint we should assess at what point a member becomes more of a liability than a helper. I mean we wouldn't want more patients than those who called 911.

[maisela 0]

Most of us on the board understand how firefighting is a calling; it's something that many of us have the utmost dedication to. Looking down the road, I can certainly see how rough it would be if someone told me I'm too old to continue being a firefighter. I think that each individual needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. That being said, there should be an maximum age for volunteer firefighters. We make decisions in the fire service on our feet. An emergency scene is a very stressful environment, not just for the guys on the line or on the roof but the pump operators and fire police. The last two roles, which in many departments are seen as "retirement" positions, in some cases demand as much focus and quick-thinking as the guy on the knob. Putting older firefighters in those positions, with their judgment and response lessened by age could be a liability. Again, I'm not saying that every 60+ firefighter in the fire service is a liability. On the contrary, the vast experience that many of these "old timers" have can be put to excellent use as safety officers and instructors. As many on this topic have said we should be assessing whether we are help or a liability. This should be done for firefighters regardless of age. How about enacting minimal national standards for physical and age requirements for both career and volunteer firefighters?

[HFD750 6]

ALS... I see your point and agree,But why quote me?I said nothing about being able to go calls, Or are you just being your usual happy self

Oh and HAPPY EASTER!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LOL. Nah I'm in a pretty good mood today, lol. You know I wouldn't pick on you, just used your post as my spring board. Particulary one of my points about guys whom just "come to the firehouse," and how that still doesn't mean they won't drop. I said like 2 or 3 times that I meant no offense. We know and respect each other too well to even think like that brother.

[HFD750 6]

Hey ALS... Your right was just having some fun. I'll talk to you soon.

[helicopper 1,050]

LOL.  Nah I'm in a pretty good mood today, lol.  You know I wouldn't pick on you, just used your post as my spring board. Particulary one of my points about guys whom just "come to the firehouse," and how that still doesn't mean they won't drop.  I said like 2 or 3 times that I meant no offense.  We know and respect each other too well to even think like that brother.

←

Hey ALS, you're right that heart disease is killing us - in law enforcement too - but is age the critical factor? Does anyone know the breakdown of ages for these LODD's? I suspect that the victims are actually YOUNGER than the mandatory retirement age of 62. That leads me to believe that we have to address other risk factors besides age - stress, diet, exercise, etc.

Are we doing enough to combat this? I'm guessing that we probably aren't.

[ltjay157 10]

I believe in CT that you may not be a firefighter once you turn 65. I'm not 100% certain on this but I will check on it. The one pet peeve of mine is how we coddle some people. There is a 20 yr old in my fire dept that has been through 2 sets of gear because he got too big for them. to me, the Chief should have told him lose the weight or you can't be an active firefighter. Granted, i'm a big guy myself, and have been through 3 sets of gear over the past 15 years, not once did i have to get remeasured for a new set of gear because I gained weight. We spent close to 4K on this one guy. I'm not trying to pick on the kid, but when do we say enough is enough? The yearly physicals by the town are a joke. They check your vision, hearing, blood, BP, urine, weight (joke), and the blow in the machine thingy to see if you can wear SCBA. The fit test we do every year is also a joke. I won't even get into that one. As I recall, FDNY has lost probies before 911 due to heart attacks & they were in their early 20's!. I know that the fire service will never fully solve this problem but this should be a major concern for all Chiefs. The one thing that puzzles me though is when I read Firehouse or Fire Engineering magazines, you see 70+ yr old dieing on the fire scene pulling hoses, directing traffic, or even just climbing into the cab of fire apparutus. When do you tell someone it's time to quit?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Chris:

As soon as I can sit down and get the stats for age and cause of death/activity I will post it. I'm pretty sure it does correlate to age, I just have to get to them and post them. I will as soon as I can.

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris:

As soon as I can sit down and get the stats for age and cause of death/activity I will post it.  I'm pretty sure it does correlate to age, I just have to get to them and post them.  I will as soon as I can.

←

I'd be really interested to see that - anecdotally the incidence of heart disease that's affected the LE side of the house has been in the 40's and 50's - not the 60's.

Now I gotta see if they're any studies or analyses on this side of the street.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm trying to get a more specific median age. However according to the USFA Report on Firefighter Fatalities for 2005 http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publ.../fa-306-508.pdf

Firefighters whom died of a heart attack or stroke has a median time of service of 21 years. That drops to 12 years for those whom died of traumatic injuries.

If you go to page 29 of the report (the actual report, not the adobe page) it really tells the story.

Age

Under 21 100% death due to trauma/Asphyxiation (3)

21-25 100% due to to trauma/asphyxiation (5)

26-30 60% T/A (3) 40% Heart attack CVA (2)

31-35 71% T/A (5) 29% HA/CVA (2)

36-40 50% T/A (7) 50% HA/CVA (7)

41-45 36% T/A (5) 64% HA/CVA (9)

46-50 31% T/A (5) 69% HA/CVA (11)

51-60 31% T/A (10) 69% HA/CVA (22)

61 and over 28% T/A (5) 72% HA/CVA (13)

The age of one firefighter according to a note on the graph was somehow "unknown."

The most deaths occurred between 1300 and 1459 hours.

[Fireman488 57]

610 volunteer and 368 career firefighters died while on duty during 1994-2004 and that heart attacks were the leading cause of fatality for both volunteer and career firefighters.

There were 1,136,650 firefighters in the United States in 2005. Of these, 823,350 (72%) were volunteer and 313,300 (28%) were career.

Firefighting is physically demanding work requiring high levels of aerobic capacity. Therefore, fire departments are encouraged to require preplacement and annual medical evaluations in accordance with NFPA guidelines.

NFPA 1582, Standards on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments, recommends exercise stress testing for asymptomatic firefighters who have two or more risk factors for CAD.

NFPA 1583, Standard on Health-Related Fitness Programs for Firefighters, outlines a complete health-related fitness program designed for fire departments.

Source: NFPA

Edited April 14, 2007 by Fireman488

[AFS1970 504]

I know we had an old (and out of date) SOP that required members to step down from active service at 65. I have never seen it enforced, but we also don't have a lot of 65 y/o members fighting to be active. If there is a state law I would like to see it, but I doubt there is one. There was a case in Stamford with relation to police officers that struck down mandatory retirement ages, I would think the same applies to firefighters as well. That and I know some other members here will remember the "Jurasic Truck". Which I will not name specifically by department, was nicknamed such due to the combined age of it's crew.

As for responding to the station and not going on calls, there are a few incident related duties that still need to be done. A new policy that will likely be activated for this weekend's storm require us to supply a coordinator azt our watch desk and self dispatch if call volume becomes too large. I can think of no better use for a senior member that something like this, so we don't have to commit a younger active member to the task.

[Guest]

"Jurassic Truck"? I didn't think anyone remembered that!

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Just had this link forwarded to me, and it fits here perfectly.

Firehouse.com:

Ohio Firefighter on the Job for 81 Years

[Remember585 815]

WOW!