Is It Time For A Full Time FD @ WC Airport?

[RWC130 594]

How about a FT Airport Fire Department with a Paramedic Fly Car?

They could handle Fire-Rescue-EMS.

Seth, you bring up very good concerns.

WC Airport is growing.

Are WE as First Responders prepared?

More important is the WC Airport prepared?

Unfortunately even in a post 9/11 world money for

Emergency Services is always the last thing to be

addressed.

[hudson144 150]

the average ARFF vehicle can deplete its water in less than 3 mins. Crews are trained to create a rescue path by dispersing its agent to the primary exit door. I know situations are different if the a/c is broken into sections similair to the sioux city IA crash. This all goes hand in hand with training. If the ops firefighters run out of agent and they have to wait on incoming units I do see a problem. Also if an a/c is down on the runway and it has 90+ SOB's (SOULS ON BOARD) then a real problem is obvious. Manpower is key like every other dept in westchester co. Along with an a/c down incident many resources are needed. EMS-HAZMAT- POLICE- and alot of other resources that I won't get into are needed. I think that what we are talking mainly about here is the primary response that ultimately will decide the overall incidents results. Keep it going!

[GFD70 4]

I believe the New Haven-Tweed Airport in New Haven once had NHFD firefighters who were stationed at the airport, however, they were replaced by cross-trained employees due to budget problems.

[emt301 4]

So you think it would be good to have a dedicated arff crew at the airport?

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I certainly don't think it's a bad idea. One other solution might be to have a 2 man crew consisting of airport ops staff DEDICATED to each ARFF rig per shift...i.e. 4 men per shift whose ONLY responsibility on that tour would be fire/ems (before anyone asks....ARFF apparatus generally can't hold the 4-6 firefighters that structural rigs will...frequently only will hold 2, maybe 3 firefighters)...in other words, hire some additional cross-trained coordinators/supervisors. This would give the airport an increase in manpower for first/primary response at the airport, and would provide flexibility for continued airport ARFF coverage if equipment were also required off airport grounds (there would be enough manpower to put the reserve rig in service). Also, by still using cross-trained airport ops staff, it would provide the airport extra flexibility in covering shifts when staff members take time off. Technically, all coordinators are already professional firefighters....members of IAFF Local I-62....while maybe this wouldn't be the fulltime force some are talking about, it could be a good compromise...additional staff would be hired to provide more fire/ems coverage in & around the airport....and the airport would keep flexibility in terms of their employees abilities to help out in all areas of airport operations such as snow removal, parking aircraft, weather observations, construction supervision. Staff members would basically just rotate which days/shifts they were the dedicated ARFF crew, with no other responsibilities.

Edited April 5, 2007 by emt301

[TimesUp 148]

So its a good idea as long as Firefighters are'nt hired to do it.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

I have been responding in to airport for 35 years now. during the day you have Rye Brook down the road now who can get to any call on or off the airport grounds and eng 58 or eng 59 5 min. behind them . throw in all the volly rigs coming from three depts.plus greenwich at the bad one's you have more then you need. after 1900 eng 59 moves to cover Rye Brooks sta.. what we all need is more training at the airport, at least twice a year hands on training. when this can get done then we will see about the next move.

[Guest]

Granted you may have alot of apparatus responding but what's the staffing of each consist of? You need adequate personnel also, not just equipment responding. Not to mention, if old MR. Murphy's around, and has the Rye Brook units already tied up on a call, or it's after 1900hrs. and E58 and E59 are at their own JOB which can quite well happen in PC. It may seem like alot of what ifs and too far fetched, but let's face it, this kind of $hit does happen on occassion especially in the fire service. Many times we get caught with our pants down.

Edited April 5, 2007 by LongShanks

[TimesUp 148]

Jp4+delay in response+low manning=trouble for the SOB's

A dedicated ARFF crew at the airport would take away the delayed response, thats a start.

[hudson144 150]

additional training should include live pit fires, water reservicing, location of water sources etc, flightline familiarization- which would help incoming units to understand the various markings on the taxi ways, ramps, runways-this should be done both during the night and daytime.

[Oswegowind 17]

IMO HPN does warrant a full time fire-rescue-ems staff. A well trained unit that can lead in the event of a disaster at the airport. Not only has the airport seen an increase in traffic but there are also many buildings on it's grounds and I am sure that there is still room to build. This airport has grown vastly over the past 15 years and it is about time to catch up on resources! Either the County can get on board or maybe the Port Authority should come in...It is already very well policed!!! The 39 boys do a great job and are always patrolling...but there are 3 services and each should complement each other...I go for full time fire-rescue-ems...btw I am flying airtran our of there later this month.

[Guest partyrock]

btw I am flying airtran our of there later this month.

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Watch out for the everglades, that landing can be rough from time to time.

[Oswegowind 17]

Not nearly as rough as the ones over the Pacific when we flew to Japan a few years ago...that was NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jybehofd 85]

wow this has hit one big nerve.

I am in one of the three departments that responds to the airport. I can tell you the personel that main the operations at the airport train train and train some more. And they want us there more too with them. Also they don't mess around when an aircraft calls in an emergency, they call 60 control way before the planes usually land and when its just a minor thing too. Its always good to get things on the road and turn them around.

They have 2 ARFF trucks the main truch that does roll 1st is a three man crew truck with a boom on it. To deliver water and fire fighting agent (i belive dry chem not too sure) but its a large amount nothing like a protable can. I know that this truck can cover the airport and them somemore. The second truck is the older one used for back-up. There is also a LARGE amount of foam in the graguage, which is right under the operations center.

I know at most airports when an emergency is declared by a plane the airport is shut down. ALL TRAFFIC STOPS. I also know there are several other people trained for fire fighting and rescue on the property.

I have taken the ARFF class at the training center. We beg the instructor if we could do an oil pit fire back when the training center had it. But some law makers in westchester decided that we can't do that anymore..... wow they are restricting training. no more live burns. all burns are controled. Yes they are safer but I have done oil pit training for my basic and advance ship board fire fighting. Its always amazing how fast the foam works. even the training foam (reg foam just cut with more water) Its also incredible on how a heat sheild takes a very large chunk of the heat off the foam line team too. I am all for training I love it the more the better.

[JBE 328]

After reading all of this, I was kind of stunned that WC airport doesn't have a full time ARFF crew. Seth brings up a valid point or two. IMHO, it's an eventual certainty with all the extra traffic coming in. I see no reason why they can't fully staff at least one or two rigs, and have the surrounding departments back them up.

[Guest]

I'm glad for the most part this has maintained to be a very professional forum. Aside from some initial over reactions (including my own) this has brought some very valid points to light. Since everybody loves spending county money might as well invest in a gas aircraft fire simulator. Similar to the gas tree at the training center, this piece of gear looks like an airplane but can continue the gas fire until properly extinguished. Maybe something along these lines

http://www.kiddeft.com/utcfs/Templates/Pag...d%3D385,00.html

More training never hurts.

If an aircraft is to make an emergency landing, the field will usually have at least 5 minutes notice in order to scramble rescue equipment. The aircraft declaring the emergency should also declare how many souls aboard and how much fuel remaining in time (vs gallons or pounds) so it will be aircraft dependent.

[hudson144 150]

As a military firefighter at stewart we are required for live fire training annually, over the past few years we were sent to boston to the MASSPORT airport for our live fire training. We spent 3-4 hrs training and the rest of the 3 days having a good time.(2 days travel time) cost effective? no! Now what we do is we bring ina airplane simulater from Kellogg university from Michigan. It is a simulated a/c that basically a mock up of an a/c and you have propane fires. It is pretty effective as far as having the feeling that you are working on an a/c and it even has an audio recording of people screaming for help. pans are put down under the wings to simulate a flowing fuel fire and the unit has the capability of engine fires also. The only thing that I do not like about it is that the fire is propane fed. The experience that you gain from doing pit fires with actual a/c fuel can not be gained here. In my active duty days every sat morning we were at the pits putting out live fires with handlines, turrets from the rigs. Lets all remember here that a majority of the mishaps from a/c going in and out of the airport have happened off of the installation. The fact that the airport still needs to run even if the a/c is down off of the airport property does not guarantee that an ARFF truck will respond to the incident if it is off the airport property. If a rig from the airport is relocated to an incident offvof the property then that down grades the ARFF capabilty to extinguish a fire on the property.

[helicopper 1,050]

All airport operations coordinators and supervisors are trained in ARFF.  They perform double duty...but I wouldn't say operations first, then fire-rescue.  When an aircraft alert comes in from the tower, crash-fire-rescue becomes the MOST IMPORTANT JOB for operations personnel, and the response is immediate.  The airport supervisors & coordinators staff 2 crash trucks, with a third truck in reserve.  There's also a stock-pile of foam on hand to be used in the event of a major incident.  When I was at the airport, our manpower during the day wasn't much of a problem...especially when factoring in the presence of upper management & maintenance personnel, some of whom also have firefighting & ARFF training...

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They are hired as ops coordinators, right? One of the coordinator's duties is firefighting. They are not hired as firefighters with ancillary duties. That's why I said they're operations first. How much time do they spend training for crash rescue and firefighting? 10% 20%?

A firefighter spends most if not all of their time training to be a firefighter. That was my point on their roles. They are all trained and when an alert comes in they all focus on the mission at hand but that's not their primary job.

[emt301 4]

So its a good idea as long as Firefighters are'nt hired to do it.

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That's not what I said. What I said is that a dedicated crew is a good idea...but that one option other than hiring fulltime employees whose only job was firefighting would be the continued use of operations staff (all members of IAFF Local I-62), but with MORE of them on duty at a time.

Also, there continues to be talk in this thread of a "delayed response" at the airport. While I was there I never saw a delayed response to an Alert from operations personnel. The rigs responded as soon as we were contacted by the tower or the aircraft itself. Not sure where all of this "delay" talk is coming from. Sure there's a delay in terms of the supplemental volunteer/career rigs arriving on scene from mutual aid departments, but not in the first response from airport personnel & rigs.

Edited April 8, 2007 by emt301