Bullet Proof Vests, Part of PPE for EMS?

[Guest]

Recently, i was hired by an EMS agency who operates, primarily, in a small city. While were not talking about south-central LA, this city does have its fair share of violent crime - stabbings, slashings, shootings, EDPs, etc. While i wait for orientation, i have been giving alot of thought to purchasing a bullet proof vest to wear under my uniform shirt. I'm not exactly keen on the idea, as it will add extra weight and, im sure, keep me extra toasty - especially in summer months. Is it worth it, or is this simply a matter of personal preference? Any and all input is well received!

[Jybehofd 85]

well I have been doing some work down in lower manthanan in some not so fun places to be white and night if you get my drift. But I have never been told to get a vest or do the other guys on the truck have one. Its all about scene safety and I did ask them why they don't have one. Basicly thats what they told me. Granted we do have the cops there some of the times but there have been times when we do wait for them to come espicially with the EDP and some others too. I don't think I will work some where that requires a vest. I am not a tactical medic or tatical emt to be wearing it in the 1st place. Granted this might sounds like some childish thing. Granted we do go into some dangerous places but I am not a cop or do I have a gun.

[paratrooper75 41]

NOOOOO!!!! Think about your practical test. What comes first? bsi and SCENE SAFETY. You'll never need it if you do your job right.

[mpgfire93 4]

i feel that the choice to wear one or not to where one is up to the individual. while many people might say that ems workers are not cops why do we need one. also many members of this forum preach scene safety and I cannot agree more but whose not to say that the scene can go south very quickly. thats my two cents.

[ltjay157 10]

I know that FDNY issues vests to it's EMS personel. Granted, you're not suppossed to be in a dangerous situation, but going into some of those tennaments you don't always have the police on scene for the cardiac arrest etc... Some people just don't care if you're EMS or a cop. The see a uniform and see an authority figure and will shoot at you for no reason at all. I know medics in Bridgeport CT that wear a vest because the junkies will try to rob them of the meds they carry. It's a sad world that EMS personell have to wear them. Society is just going down the pooper.

[Guest]

I consider myself at least somewhat intelligent and competent. That being said, i feel i consistently practice and do my best to maintain a high level of scene safety. But, as was said, some situations can boil over rather quickly. Remember the NJ EMTs/Medics that were attacked by a gang a number of months ago? Likewise, i don't think its unreasonable to consider a vest as an option. If i didn't, i think i would be doing myself a disservice.

[Oswegowind 17]

EMS is unsafe just as police/fire (not in the same manner, of course). You never know what can happen in a matter of moments. You go to a shooting and they clear the scene and you begin to treat the vic and all of a sudden some nut starts shooting down the block. You just never know what can happen! It does, however, come down to personal preference. Technically you are not a target 24/7 like the police but you do wear a similar uniform, in some places, a bit too similar and can be mistaken. Some places dispatch the services separately and may not know of another incident within the general vicinity of the one they have sent you to. I did not wear a vest, and I also did some things that were not so smart without a vest but we live and we learn (hopefully)...and that attitude all changes when you have a family to come home to everyday, you start to put yourself out there less and consider situations differently. If you are a complete BUFF (like I was) then you may want to consider it, but if you aren't then you may go the other way.

[x134 46]

Alpha- back in the day in the late 80s early 90s when crack and the shootings were rampid in the city friends of mine who worked for Alamo in Poughkeepsie had worn vests. I think it is a great idea depending on the area. Everyone goes home..... You wouldn't wear one in Millbrook working for an EMS agency. LOL

Edited March 25, 2007 by drobison82

[RWC130 594]

Another Good Topic...

I think having a Bullet Proof Vest is never a bad thing, Always look to

protect yourself but I have one question....

Why do EMT's and Medics love to look like the POLICE if you

don't wanna get shot at?

-Navy Blue Pants

-Navy Blue Shirt

-Police Style EMT Badge

-State Trooper Style EMT Patch

-Gun Belt with ALL the toys (Minus the Gun)

Tell me.. WHO do you look like from 20 FEET away?????

Always remember SCENE SAFETY.... If you are dispatched to a

Shooting, Stabbing, Assault, Domestic, Etc wait for PD to clear the area

and tell you the scene is safe.

You should NEVER be in a HOT ZONE or DANGER ZONE.

We all want to rush in and help, I speak from experience...

When I was an EMT in the early 90's I rushed into a call of a Shooting,

We were blocks away. We arrived on scene so fast NO POLICE.

Whoops!

As we began to treat the shooting victim we could hear police sirens the

thought had occurred to me that ANYONE in the crowd could have been the

Shooter and if they wanted him dead they might shoot us for helping him.

I will NEVER make that mistake again.

I am a huge buff trust me but I have learned a lot over the years.

EVERYONE GOES HOME...

[Guest]

Alpha- back in the day in the late 80s early 90s when crack and the shootings were rampid in the city friends of mine who worked for Alamo in Poughkeepsie had worn vests. I think it is a great idea depending on the area. Everyone goes home..... You wouldn't wear one in Millbrook working for an EMS agency. LOL

←

Ha! Yeah, this was something i would wear when i worked in the City...i don't wear one in Putnam, and wouldn't plan on wearing one in Millbrook/Fishkill/etc. Just trying to gather up as much information before i make a decision on the matter.

RWC - Right on. Exactly the reason i got "NEW YORK STATE EMT" plastered on the back of my job sweatshirt. Might sound buffy to some, but i cant afford being mistaken for someone i'm not.

[bil14ga 1]

I worked at Alamo in the mid 90's when shootings and stabbings were a frequent occurrence. Myself as well as a number of the other Alamo employees wore vests for a level of protection. Buffy? Maybe. But at the same time I did go to a number of scenes where they were declared safe by the PD and went south quickly, including one scene where a Mac 10 was found by me as I rolled over a patient.

At the same time there are scenes that are OK to go into and the perp sticks around unknowingly to the responder. Remember the Philadelphia incident where a paramedic was treating a shooting victim in the back of the bus. The perp entered the back of the bus and proceeded to shoot the initial victim dead and then shot the medic as well.

Something to think about.

Be safe out there.

[nycemt728 49]

I have been mistaken for a police officer many times; in both good situations and bad. I might add I was also wearing a white shirt, so even less like a cop! I totally agree with whats being said, you can be Mr. Saftey and follow all your protocols and still wind up in world of hurt. If these guys act up with EMS AND cops present, they will surely act up when we have no back up. I agree its unfortunate that EMS has to vest up, but we like going home just as much as cops do. I think if I was given a vest, I would wear it working at certain agencies. I do work in NYC and have lived there my whole life, I would definitely take and wear one offered to me. Would I buy one, probably not, but thats just laziness combined with the fact that I dont work the bad areas routinely enough where I don't have back up. I guess what I'm saying is yeah, its come to a point that in certain places EMS needs to vest up, and I should probably get together with my colleagues and work on it. Be safe!

Edited March 25, 2007 by nycemt728

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Alpha, this all comes down to personal choice if you are the one whom is going to purchase the vest. If you feel you need it for your own protection or peace of mind I say go for it. I would of course check with the agency you are working for to ensure it won't be a problem for them. I don't know where not carrying a gun or not being a police officer has to do with whether or not someone wears body armor, but it does have its time and place at certain times. That comment to me is the equivalent of saying why does EMS wear turnout gear, they aren't firefighters, don't stretch hose and don't carry irons.

As far as some of the other comments, I would in my experience be very cautious using terms such as "never," and "you'll never need it." Even when you do your job right we live in a dynamic world and things can change in a heartbeat when you least expect it. If this was the case we wouldn't have to teach personnel protective actions and self defense, like not standing in front of a door, never putting anyone and as few as possible objects between you and egress point. Why cutting clothes off a victim is not only for a good solid trauma assessment but also to get any weapons the victim might have on them are now also not in reach. How many person posting here deal with vagrants, homeless and less desirables in uncontrolled situations? Or when they are unconscious in the street? Do they all wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed happy to see you? How many posters have been dispatched to a shooting scene where the scene is contained, but not necessarily fully controlled or the shooter(s) had not been apprehended and their wherabouts unknown?

As far as entering hot/danger zones. Simply putting that we should never be in one isn't as simple as it seems anymore. With incidents that have occurred in Columbine, CO, Red Lake, MN, Lancaster County, PA and several other school shootings and not to leave off the violent aggressive society that we live in today with workplace violence, lessons learned are that victims who then turn to patients when we arrive do not have time to wait and do not deserve to wait. Anyone whom has looked into the lessons learned in numerous studies and reports on the Columbine incident know that there were several victims whom may have survived if they were reached, treatment started and to transport. Police agencies have learned much on school response from Columbine in regard to response and tactics, unfortunately Fire and EMS in many cases have not.

As far as uniforms, I for one am not a huge fan of uniform shirts. Particulary badges and those that wear utility belts. What is possibly on there that you need to wear those that either don't or isn't in the bag I'm carrying? I am pro golf shirt and professional sweatshirt styles when they are nicely done and you don't have to worry about dry cleaning them which we know most people don't even iron them. Badges? Not just the look but I've seen people wear them around their necks with those style badge holders. Trust me if you knock on the door and say ambulance, someone should know you were called if you are in civy gear for you VAC members. Alpha...having "New York State EMT" might be buffy, lol. EMT probably would have worked with your agency name...most of us where I work have Paramedic embroidered on our backs for the same reasons and if there is an MCI we are easily identified. Several of us were fighting to do the same on the back of the uniform shirts we also had to wear but the decison maker left and during the winter most of us have sweatshirts on and in the summer shorts and golf shirts.

Performing a scene survey....a "size up" is only one part of safety.

[RWC130 594]

SCENE SAFETY:

I have monitored a few calls where 60-Control or Police have told

"Stage Away From The Scene" and guess what?

EMS units (ALS) and or (BLS) go right in!

[Guest partyrock]

I've done the majority of my EMS career in the Bronx, and still use my original issued vest. There are plenty of reasons not to wear it. It sucks in the summer, no EMT or Medic in the city has been shot, we shouldn't even be there if the scene isn't safe, etc. I wear it because as annoying as it can be, being shot is alot more annoying. I wear a seatbelt everyday and I've never been in anything more than a fender bender. Its only a matter of time before one of us is in the wrong place at the wrong time and ends up shot. I've got plenty of stories of guys going into apts or rolling up on scene and having to litterally run for their lives. I've been threatened for net rendering aid in the event of obvious death. I've pulled blades of drunks and had others pull their knives on me. What I'm getting at is what we all know. This job is dangerous. If you can afford it and shootings are real issue in the community you're working I'd get it.

[lad41der 0]

Although no emt or medic has been shot there is always the first time. Where do you here about most of these incidents? Small towns and cities such as this man is talking about. I would have to give you the advice if it makes you feel safer then you should go with it.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I've also seen and heard units who have gone in when advised to stage and I've also have had units who've arrived already and then the request to stage was made. $hit happens. I've been on calls where PD has been requested and the message gets lost in translation between agencies. Many of us have been dealing with growing pains of certain agency who switched to a new dispatching system.

Anyone can preach scene safety and most providers are very good at it, I've named numerous other incidents where even with PD on the scene things are dynamic. Including MVA's which have taken a turn for the worse on scene, where I ended up in the middle of near riot while awaiting additional PD units to arrive. If those of you whom want to say scene safety is the answer that's fine. Good for you. I do not wear one, but I feel there are instances where they should be made available for certain instances as I've stated.

Risk vs. Benefit sometimes applies to EMS also. There are things that are calculated risks in the fire service and law enforcement and the age is coming where EMS needs to be educated and grasp this concept also. Again I bring up the point of mass shootings, school shootings, workplace violence. We like to bring up conversations about rehab. What about tac teams operating on incidents where they may need rehab and its not feasible to rotate members far away from the operational area.

Alpha...PM me...I have a few other things I want to share with you.

[helicopper 1,050]

Although no emt or medic has been shot there is always the first time. Where do you here about most of these incidents? Small towns and cities such as this man is talking about. I would have to give you the advice if it makes you feel safer then you should go with it.

←

On what are you basing that statement? There have been many instances of EMS personnel being shot or shot at.

I never wore a vest while I was in EMS but I certainly understand why some agencies make it available and some providers buy their own.

As has already been pointed out, we try very hard to make ourselves indistinguishable from the police and despite our best efforts, a scene may not stay safe after we arrive and do that scene survey.

Dispatch information is also only as good as the information provided. I remember going on a "difficulty breathing" call solo - just the ALS ambulance, no PD and no FD - only to find out that the cause of the difficulty breathing was a gunshot wound to the chest! This is not a slam on dispatchers - they gave us what they were given. It just turned out to be more!

I would lobby for the agency to provide vests on their units in the small city rather than spending my hard-earned dollars on one.

[calhobs 110]

I've done the majority of my EMS career in the Bronx, and still use my original issued vest.  There are plenty of reasons not to wear it.  It sucks in the summer, no EMT or Medic in the city has been shot, we shouldn't even be there if the scene isn't safe, etc.  I wear it because as annoying as it can be, being shot is alot more annoying.  I wear a seatbelt everyday and I've never been in anything more than a fender bender.  Its only a matter of time before one of us is in the wrong place at the wrong time and ends up shot.  I've got plenty of stories of guys going into apts or rolling up on scene and having to litterally run for their lives.  I've been threatened for net rendering aid in the event of obvious death.  I've pulled blades of drunks and had others pull their knives on me.  What I'm getting at is what we all know.  This job is dangerous.  If you can afford it and shootings are real issue in the community you're working I'd get it.

←

When I was with the city during the height of the crack wars we were told that the police were the only aganecy allowed to have them and that when the law changes and that you dont have to be a police officer to have a vest that will be when we get them. When did FDNY start to give them out ??????

Edited March 27, 2007 by calhobs

[Guest partyrock]

For at least 10 years now by my recollection, but I'll check and find a better date for you.

[PVFD233 68]

........You wouldn't wear one in Millbrook working for an EMS agency. LOL

The Brooks has some mean streets and thugs....

[x129K 1,393]

The Brooks has some mean streets and thugs....

←

Luckily most of them are in the Fire Department..............

I worked the Y.O., The Vern, and Poughkeepsie for 7 years and never "wished" I had a vest on.

Now a knife resistant back plate....that's another story..........

[helicopper 1,050]

Luckily most of them are in the Fire Department..............

I worked the Y.O., The Vern, and Poughkeepsie for 7 years and never "wished" I had a vest on.

Now a knife resistant back plate....that's another story..........

←

Funny how those knife resistant back plates are so popular in our business!

[Medic5274 45]

When I was with the city during the height of the crack wars we were told that the police were the only aganecy allowed to have them and that when the law changes and that you dont have to be a police officer to have a vest that will be when we get them. When did FDNY start to give them out ??????

←

I spent 15 years working as a medic in the City in some of the roughest neighborhoods during the late 80's and early 90's crack war years. FDNY issued vests to those that wanted one. The problem at that time was there was no protocol in place mandating their use. Most of us did not were them full time because they were hot and uncomfortable. We hung them over the back of our seats and put them on if what thought the situation warranted their use. This in hindsight was very far sighted because we had no idea what was waiting behind a closed aprtment door. We often responded without the police so if something went bad we didn't have immediate backup to difuse the situation.

I and all of my EMS brethern working in some tough neighborhoods were often placed into situations you would never want to be. We were often very unprotected and in immediate harms way. My partners and I drove around in a ambulance that had two bullet holes from two different shootings that occured within one week. We stupidly took this as some type of badge of courage but it could have easily been one of us instead of the door of the ambulance that had a bullet hole in it.

If you are issed a vest you should wear it all the time, you just never know what type of situation you are going to be called to. As for needing the vest in a small quite town like Millbrook. I was riding as a volly in on of the smallest and safest Villages in Westchester County we were transporting a patient to WCMC who had ingested some pills. The patient jumped up in the stretcher and grabbed the gun from the police officer who was escorting us (I will not go into all of the rules the police broke by riding in the ambulance with a gun) a violent struggle ensued to get the gun away from the patient. It took three of us and one brken hand later to get the gun away from the patient. It can happen anywhere folks some don't become complacent about this issue. Protect yourself

[Guest]

The argument and lingering debates of "Pros v. Cons" of having a ballistic vest will always exist. I've read each and every one of these comments and the same thing comes up.....SCENE SAFETY. We look around, listen to the radio to ensure the coast is clear. But we can never guarantee how long it'll be that way for. Pooh happens, and sometimes when you least expect it, whether it be from neglegence or just how fast a situation unravels.

I used to have a vest. Problem with it was that it didn't afford me protection from knives, or other sharp objects that maybe lunged my way. To have a vest handy, it's a good idea. I'd lean more to something with more protection against object that are non-bullet in origin first. Anyone with a brain knows, it a gun's involved, we are nowhere near it until P.D. assures that the subject/gun is secure.

[Guest bibbles10504]

Yea thats another discussion right there... maybe it would be better to get a knife/ sharps resistant vest, because the probability of being shot is probably less than having a patient pulling something out of their pocket that could cut you

[Guest x901]

Scene saftey.... wait for the police to secure the scene. All great ideas. But ideas aren't always reality. Reality is that things change. They can change extremly quickly and without warning.

I wear a vest when I am at work. I wear one b\c I was placed into a situation that deteriorated very quickly which ended with multple bullets flying in my direction.

Police in the larger\busier locals, tend not to go on EMS runs unless there is violence involved. On the other hand skells rarely tell 911 that they have a gun on them and or they are going to cause problems for EMS.

Those of us that work in these places all take precautions. We look, listen & think. Some do where protection. The cops that i work with all know that i am wearing a vest. They think it is something very smart.

Anyone who is going to preach the writings of the textbook, or the naysayers that denouce the need for protection; should take in a job in a large PJ complex in the dead of summer and see how quickly things there will change.

I fully intend to go home at the end of the day.

[helicopper 1,050]

Scene saftey.... wait for the police to secure the scene. All great ideas. But ideas aren't always reality. Reality is that things change. They can change extremly quickly and without warning.

I wear a vest when I am at work. I wear one b\c I was placed into a situation that deteriorated very quickly which ended with multple bullets flying in my direction.

Police in the larger\busier locals, tend not to go on EMS runs unless there is violence involved. On the other hand skells rarely tell 911 that they have a gun on them and or they are going to cause problems for EMS.

Those of us that work in these places all take precautions. We look, listen & think. Some do where protection. The cops that i work with all know that i am wearing a vest. They think it is something very smart.

Anyone who is going to preach the writings of the textbook, or the naysayers that denouce the need for protection; should take in a job in a large PJ complex in the dead of summer and see how quickly things there will change.

I fully intend to go home at the end of the day.

←

If you're working for the PD EMS provider and driving around a vehicle that says POLICE all over it that's a VERY smart move!

This is a judgement call and everyone needs to make their own decision about vests and scene safety.

[Guest]

I work overnights in the City of Rochester which has the highest per capita murder rate in the state, and when I got hired they told me that there are only three kinds of people that wear vests: the people who are also cops and always wear a vest, the 4 people in 10 years who have actually been in a crossfire, and the people who know that they are jerks and that they will eventually be shot at. As long as you use your head and aren't afraid to get out of a deteriorating situation you should be fine. I know more people here who bought vests that they no longer wear than who actually wear them every day.

[Guest]

IIA Vest = $500

Shirt that fits over vest = $35

Extra bottle of water for the shift = $1

Getting to go home and play catch with my son, priceless.

While I think I'm alert enough to avoid going someplace I shouldn't, I also work in areas were gun play is much greater then reported on the news. I don't feel like being a stray bullet statistic.