Structure fire or Extrication?

[Guest MRK303]

Lets say you get called for a working house fire in your district and while responding in your engine you pass a motor vehicle accident with extrication (the engine has an extrication tool on it). Is there a protocol for this? Do you take in the extrication, or bypass it and go for the structure fire? My personal opinion is that you stay at the extrication and call county control and notify them. At an extrication, you are 100% certain that somebody’s life is at risk. Why bypass it and lose precious time in the golden hour. As for the house fire, there could be people trapped in the house but you are not 100% certain of this. Property can be replaced, a life cannot! I know that there are many factors that can change during a call like this, but I was wondering what everyone thinks about this scenario and what would they do?

[IzzyEng4 427]

It depends on the situation. How bad it the MVA compared to the structure fire? Are there occupants trapped in the car or at the structure?

Rule of thumb, the call you were assigned to first is the one you respond to.

In this case, if you are the first due unit, you need to keep responding to the structure call. Radio in the MVA to the dispatch center and have the next due engine company go to the MVA and have another engine respond to the structure fire in the 2nd due's place. If there is a rescue assigned to the first alarm structure call, reroute it to the MVA is necessary. Regardless, the first due pump has to get to the structure call.

As a dispatcher I have came across the same scenario many times and running rules are running rules, either way you can get knee deep in crap. A dispatcher has to adjust the response to fit the assignments.

It really is a judgment call on the crew when it boils down to it.

[mfc2257 464]

One of the major flaws in the Westchester County dispatching system, is that we're still allowing a single department to be the sole dispatch to a structure fire OR an extrication and wait for an officer to request the additional units that are usually needed. The problem ISN't necessarily that there is a lack of manpower or apparatus in any single department, but rather there are tons of circumstances that would prevent the first due apparatus from arriving... well, first due.

Just about anywhere else in the world, if a working structure fire is dispatched (in Millwood for example) a full assignment would be filled out and it would have an engine or two plus a rescue or truck coming from neighboring departments.... for a reported working structure fire at the supermarket for example... One would expect that immeadiatly E-245 from HQ and E-248 from the West End would be out the door.... If there is a wreck on the TSP while E-248 is enroute, it could significantly slow that rig down OR require it to stop to render aid. Now E-245 is waiting on E-247 to complete it's water supply but as the second piece out of a station there may be a delay in its response by a few mintues.

What's the logical solution to this.... What most of the country started doing years ago.... Filling out box cards and having them as part of the CAD.... The dispatch should look like.... Millwood PLUS E-146, E-94, L-41 on the initial alarm assignment... No human intervention needed. If upon arrival the OIC only needs E-245, E-248, E-146, E-94, and L-41, then guess what.... Millwood E-247 remains in quarters and becomes the standby crew instead of having a neighboring department do it. If the job goes to a second alarm then E-247 is the first Engine on the second alarm plus whatever is already listed as the second alarm assignment on that box card. Bedford Hills has started a basic version of this and even have an example of it on their web site.... But I still believe that the additional units are only activated after the OIC escalates the call to WSF or Second Alarm.... I could be wrong though.

What's the downside to this... For the taxpayers NONE... For the EGO's out there Boo Hoo, occasionally you'll get smoked into your own territory by one of the neighboring departments that's on the first alarm. Wow... It would be really bad if the boyz from Ossining or Briarcliff were throwing ladders or laying in when E-245 rolls up... OR vice versa... I pulled up to a WSF with E247 at a Chappaqua fire just as E145 (first due) arrived a few years back ... I didn't see any tears or complaints from their crew when we went to work at the same time.

SO to answer the question, if a rig passes an event enroute to another and needs to render aid, there should be a system in place where the next due rig is already on the road and the first due rig can stop, and call to be replaced on the box assignment. Again NO human intervention needed.

Edited March 19, 2007 by mfc2257

[Guest MRK303]

Great answer MFC2257. Thanks for the help!

[hudson144 150]

this could be a fun one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lad12derff 283]

I have deleted all my posts because I really don't get what mcf2257 is getting at. So here is my answer to what the question was. If you are dispatched to a fire and you pass a car accident that needs the tools you call the IC and advise of the situation and ask what they want. You do not self dispatch we already had that topic.

Edited March 20, 2007 by lad12derff

[mfc2257 464]

I have deleted all my posts because I really don't get what mcf2257 is getting at. So here is my answer to what the question was. If you are dispatched to a fire and you pass a car accident that needs the tools you call the IC and advise of the situation and ask what they want. You do not self dispatch we already had that topic.

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I too have deleted any posts regarding our side conversation.

My long post is one of many that I've made because I feel that it's important for the volunteer side of the county to start reducing the redundancy in apparatus sitting in stations and to start getting dispatched in a way that brings the needed apparatus to the scene in a timely matter. For some this will include the addition of career staffing to supplement the volunteers. For others, it will mean doing what i said in my post.... Figuring out which apparatus will be added ANYWAY on just about any WSF or major incident, and include it as part of the initial dispatch.

[Oswegowind 17]

I do agree about multi jurisdictional responses. It is not uncommon even in the career agency areas to have such an agreement. On the Bronx River Pkwy between Crane Rd, and Garth Woods (Ardsley Rd) there is one. Yonkers, Eastchester, and Scarsdale FD's all respond to calls in this area as part of an agreement. Of course if E314 or Sq11 were to come along another job i.e. WSF (structure fire) then they would divert knowing that enough responders were already enroute to the prior assignment and that we could backfill the BRP run in moments! This happens all the time in Yonkers when we give out jobs and either new runs come in or units on other jobs become in service. It is an active program.

Where I live (Buchanan), they also have an agreement with Montrose and Verplanck FD's. The Tri-Village response. Job is sent to all three depts at once (Structure Fires), first due company goes and others man the rigs ready to respond...cutting down response times to the station once required to respond. So, as to say, WSF in Montrose comes in and while responding the first due co (E123 I think) comes along an auto accident on Albany Post Rd at the Montrose Train Station (? St. name--forgot) and they cannot go around because it is blocking traffic, the next due engine, Buchanan FD should take their place and go a different route as to avoid the MVA existing.

In this day and age Mutual Aid is important. Not everyone that lives in a town, village, city is able to be a member of a volunteer dept, sometimes people have other things that need to be done. In the old days pretty much every male member of an area was a member of the fire dept, that time is long over.

In summary, mutual aid could be a great idea even on initial dispatch, goes back to sending the FAST on reports of WSF also, not just waiting til they are confirmed and people are already working waiting for the RIT to get on the scene.

[Fex404 0]

MFC2257 -- totally agree -- wish a few people higher up would think the same way.

[Danger 160]

Didn't Ladder 62 get in trouble for something along these lines once?

[mlfcemt093 0]

This "made up" job is one that requires a judgement call and common sense, as my rule of thumb I pass nothing unless a fender bender, w/ everyone walking and not complaining of pain, no one should bypass any ancident they come upon in this case the jaws are required and people are bypassing it to go to a fire, both we should say are life altering jobs and if my mom was in the car u bypass to go to a fire and no one stops to render aid and the proper tools and equipment are on that truck......so help me god.......if u come upon something it must be addressed.

[HFD750 6]

I have deleted all my posts because I really don't get what mcf2257 is getting at. So here is my answer to what the question was. If you are dispatched to a fire and you pass a car accident that needs the tools you call the IC and advise of the situation and ask what they want. You do not self dispatch we already had that topic.

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It's happened to us and I 100% agree with you.

[pjreilly 6]

Are you saying there is only one machine with an extrication tool in the county. You respond to the call you were dispatched to, notify dispatch of an accident with extrication, and they will fill out an assignment for that call. Self dispatching is becoming a problem by fire and EMS alike. I am currently assigned to dispatch, and it is a real pain in the A@@ trying to reassign units while you have a working incident going on. There are plenty of resources, do what you are told and stop buffing.

[scopino 0]

In my opinion, I would take the structure fire, your assigned to that call you don't know if anyones trapped, water situation in the area, exposure problems etc. Plus there should be other rigs on the road. Radio in the MVA.

[helicopper 1,050]

If you are dispatched to a fire and you pass a car accident that needs the tools you call the IC and advise of the situation and ask what they want. You do not self dispatch we already had that topic.

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You're not self dispatching if you come across an incident on your way to another call. That's apples and oranges. Self dispatch or "buffing" is when someone (for whatever reason) chooses to go to a call without being requested or assigned. Coming across an incident is simply that, coming across an incident.

What if the IC is not on the scene yet and doesn't know what he wants or needs? What if, what if, what if, what if?

Another point is that when you come upon the accident requiring extrication, you become the IC for that incident so what do YOU want/need?

I'd like a legal opinion on whether or not any of us should "pass" a car accident or other call for service without stopping to render aid or at the very least make the scene safe. The time lost dispatching another agency to the response area already sapped of resources by a working fire job can mean the difference between life and death to a trauma victim. Sorry, but I think you gotta stop at the accident requiring extrication.

Great topic! This one really makes you stop and think!

[sr71 1]

id take the fire and have mutual aide for the mva

[Guest partyrock]

On the EMS side, if we get flagged for anything, we are to notify dispatch and handle the call. Good luck getting my attention when I'm going to an Arrest, but it happens. Luckily its a large system with alot of units. However I've seen a difficulty breathing sit for over 30 minutes when unit after unit gets flagged for MVA's Pedestrian Strucks, and other incidents during a storm last winter. Luckily it turned out to be nothing.

On the fire side, its happened too. Its a much less frequent, but we put ourselves on the new assignment. Once again we have it easy in that there are alot more units all ready in route.

[pjreilly 6]

You are en route to a structure fire, or any other call, you are assigned to the incident. By stopping and taking yourself off that call could be endangering the victims that you are going to help. Suppose you are going to an automatic alarm, and you are second due, you come across an accident with extrication, you stop and work the extrication, and the automatic alarm turns into a multiple alarm fire because the second due engine, (water supply), never showed up. And God forbid anyone gets hurt or dies, how would you feel knowing you were going as second due for a reason,(water supply). I would feel pretty crappy. Assignments and run cards are made up for a reason. Its crappy passing an accident that you are sure you could make a difference at, but help should only be a few minutes behind you. You should always go to what you are assigned to. Period.

[Guest]

A unit was once responding to a asthmatic child call. Upon approaching a red traffic light with siren sounding, the unit stopped to assure traffic with the green was stopping. The first vehicle stopped, but was promptly rear-ended by a following vehicle. The officer called in the auto accident and continued response to the aided.

So many questions to ask, right? Was it an extrication? Was someone crtically injured? Was there now a risk of ensuing gasoline fire? Was...? Was...? Was...? But what if the asthmatic child was in respiratory arrest? What is all he needed to save his life was an albuterol treatment? What if that was the case while you stopped at an accident?

There will ALWAYS be exceptions to any rule, but the rule is RESPOND TO THE EMERGENCY FOR WHICH YOU WERE DISPATCHED INITIALLY.

That's what good fire officers do.

[lad12derff 283]

You're not self dispatching if you come across an incident on your way to another call.  That's apples and oranges.  Self dispatch or "buffing" is when someone (for whatever reason) chooses to go to a call without being requested or assigned.  Coming across an incident is simply that, coming across an incident. 

You are self dispatching if you decide to stop from your original call to answer another you happened to drive upon. What if you were dispatched to an armed robbery in progress and you came upon the same accident?

What if the IC is not on the scene yet and doesn't know what he wants or needs?  What if, what if, what if, what if]

I work for a paid fire dept so the deputy chief is responding so that  is the person I am notifying. I am well aware of how the Incident Command system works. We use it every day of the week.

Another point is that when you come upon the accident requiring extrication, you become the IC for that incident so what do YOU want/need?

I'd like a legal opinion on whether or not any of us should "pass" a car accident or other call for service without stopping to render aid or at the very least make the scene safe.  The time lost dispatching another agency to the response area already sapped of resources by a working fire job can mean the difference between life and death to a trauma victim.  Sorry, but I think you gotta stop at the accident requiring extrication.

Ask this same question to your armed robbery situation.

Great topic!  This one really makes you stop and think!

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[INIT915 1,119]

Where's the connection between an Engine with extrication capabilities versus a patrol car with no such ability?

[jps385 0]

I don't think this topic is as black and white as its being made out to be. The real question is is there an immediate threat to life at the incident you happen upon. If there is you must stop (won't site law or policy although I'm sure a lawyer would have afield day with it, its just common sense and morality). If there is no threat call it in and proceed.

Change the scenario abit for those who advocating passing the incident. Your dispatched to a structure fire but en route you pass another working fire with victims at the windows above the fire. By the logic of not self dispatching you should pass this incident because your already dispatched to something else.

What if your en route to an auto alarm first due. Would you still not stop?

[RWC130 594]

I think Chris192 hit the nail on the head...

MVA!

[lad12derff 283]

Where's the connection between an Engine with extrication capabilities versus a patrol car with no such ability?

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How about starting with scene safety and moving on to patient care starting with the ABC's Airway, Breathing, and Circulation. I would think that starting patient assessment is more important than just breaking out the tools. Don't we try to gain access via a rear window or door if possible to maintain stabilization. So to answer your question, the first responder on the scene wether fire, police, or ems has duties to perform if they are so trained.

[INIT915 1,119]

How about starting with scene safety and moving on to patient care starting with the ABC's Airway, Breathing, and Circulation. I would think that starting patient assessment is more important than just breaking out the tools. Don't we try to gain access via a rear window or door if possible to maintain stabilization. So to answer your question, the first responder on the scene wether fire, police, or ems has duties to perform if they are so trained.

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Well, you changed the scenario. Is it your position is that an Engine with extrication capability (and in theory EMS certified personnel) and a typical patrol car coming on the same incident do not have different levels of participation, that in theory, would not dictate their continued response to another incident?

[helicopper 1,050]

(lad12derff @ Mar 20 2007, 07:19 PM)

How about starting with scene safety and moving on to patient care starting with the ABC's Airway, Breathing, and Circulation. I would think that starting patient assessment is more important than just breaking out the tools. Don't we try to gain access via a rear window or door if possible to maintain stabilization. So to answer your question, the first responder on the scene wether fire, police, or ems has duties to perform if they are so trained.

You are self dispatching if you decide to stop from your original call to answer another you happened to drive upon. What if you were dispatched to an armed robbery in progress and you came upon the same accident?

I'd like a legal opinion on whether or not any of us should "pass" a car accident or other call for service without stopping to render aid or at the very least make the scene safe.  The time lost dispatching another agency to the response area already sapped of resources by a working fire job can mean the difference between life and death to a trauma victim.  Sorry, but I think you gotta stop at the accident requiring extrication.

Ask this same question to your armed robbery situation.

Well, first of all, we obviously have different interpretations of self-dispatch. That point notwithstanding, if I am responding to an armed robbery call (where there may or may not be an imminent life safety threat) I am not the only unit responding so I would stop at the accident where there is an imminent threat to life and notify dispatch.

Of course the first steps at the accident are to insure that the scene is safe and assess the severity of injuries - with that information you can update dispatch and request appropriate resources. I don't think anyone is saying that someone would "break out the tools" before doing these things. The implication in the original post was that extrication is needed and the engine is equipped for it.

Looking back over these posts I see that very few chief's have weighed in on the subject. I'm curious about what they would say if one of their engine called them with this scenario. Chief, do you have the engine stop to render aid and backfill them on the fire call or vice versa?

Also, and potentially most important should this ever occur, are these actions based upon formal agency policy? Has your department counsel ever reviewed that SOP and offered guidance to protect the department and it's officers?

[JM15 386]

I would be interested to know the legal ramifications that your department would face if you drove past an accident scene. I am also interested to know if there are any laws or legal precedence regarding this.

[RWC130 594]

Let's say you were flagged down for a MVA w/ Pin responding to a Structure Fire and you DID drive away......

Negligence

How about?

-Duty to act?

-Breach of Duty?

Legal Ramifications up the %@ !!!

[JM15 386]

Exactly what I was thinking RWC

[helicopper 1,050]

Exactly what I was thinking RWC

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ditto!