Structure fire or Extrication?

[pjreilly 6]

RWC call your lawyer back and ask him if he will represent you because you stopped and three firefighters were killed because water supply engine never showed up! Once you are assigned, you are assigned. I don't care if you are going to an alarm that comes in three times a day and is always a false call. It will only take that one time when we get complacent. I remember as a rookie always getting calls at an old folks home, that never proved to be anything. Then one day, IT happened. A major fire that killed a few elderly residents. I am sure there were many riding to that call that said" SAME OLD S*. You never know what is waiting for you, so you must follow the organizational flow chart that is sending you on the fire, and call in the car accident, and give it to the next due units. Its crappy, but what if you are the reason for hurting or killing your brothers because you thought the other call was "MORE IMPORTANT".

[INIT915 1,119]

RWC  call your lawyer back and ask him if he will represent you because you stopped and three firefighters were killed because water supply engine never showed up!  Once you are assigned, you are assigned.  I don't care if you are going to an alarm that comes in three times a day and is always a false call.  It will only take that one time when we get complacent.  I remember as a rookie always getting calls at an old folks home, that never proved to be anything.  Then one day, IT  happened.  A major fire that killed a few elderly residents.  I am sure there were many riding to that call that said" SAME OLD S*.  You never know what is waiting for you, so you must follow the organizational flow chart that is sending you on the fire, and call in the car accident, and give it to the next due units.  Its crappy, but what if you are the reason for hurting or killing your brothers because you thought the other call was "MORE IMPORTANT".

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OK, so I did. I called our contact at the AG's Office. She said, given this vauge scenario, they would have a far easier time representing us against claims given your 'disaster scenario' then passing another incident, such as the one used in this scenario.

[helicopper 1,050]

RWC  call your lawyer back and ask him if he will represent you because you stopped and three firefighters were killed because water supply engine never showed up!  Once you are assigned, you are assigned.  I don't care if you are going to an alarm that comes in three times a day and is always a false call.  It will only take that one time when we get complacent.  I remember as a rookie always getting calls at an old folks home, that never proved to be anything.  Then one day, IT  happened.  A major fire that killed a few elderly residents.  I am sure there were many riding to that call that said" SAME OLD S*.  You never know what is waiting for you, so you must follow the organizational flow chart that is sending you on the fire, and call in the car accident, and give it to the next due units.  Its crappy, but what if you are the reason for hurting or killing your brothers because you thought the other call was "MORE IMPORTANT".

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Once again, I respectfully disagree. The units on scene at the fire know what resources they have (or don't) and shouldn't put themselves in the position of relying on water (or anything else) that isn't there yet. It is just a matter of backfilling the engine on the fire response to replace the one at the accident. What if the engine you're relying so heavily on for water encounters traffic, breaks down, or has an accident of its own (a sad reality highlighted by events of the past few weeks)? You're saying that the fireground operation is so delicate that the backfill response is jeopardizing lives? Gotta rethink the safety analysis for this one then!

We can keep going in circles on this but I think the points already raised speak for themselves. There are legal requirements for EMS folks (FF/EMT or FF/CFR are EMS folks) and in the absence of clear department policy (hopefully reviewed by agency counsel) you're going to be on thin ice if you leave a patient regardless of your dispatch status. We've got two different schools of thought on this and I don't think either side is gonna change their mind anytime soon.

Jonesy, you're absolutely right "Duty to Act" and "Abandonment" are still legal issues for EMS providers.

[Guest]

Not for nothing guys, but if your in a Dept. that relies on its 2nd due engine to always establish a water supply for the 1st due engine, why not set up all your engine companies to be able to perform a reverse stretch, just in case the above case scenarios do arise at some point in time. All Depts. should always have a Plan B and even a Plan C just for these reasons mentioned. Always expect the unexpected. Like they always say when it comes to Ventilating a roof, always bring an axe with you in addition to a saw, cause the axe always starts! Just some food for thought.

[eckyphats 0]

RWC  call your lawyer back and ask him if he will represent you because you stopped and three firefighters were killed because water supply engine never showed up!  Once you are assigned, you are assigned.  I don't care if you are going to an alarm that comes in three times a day and is always a false call.  It will only take that one time when we get complacent.  I remember as a rookie always getting calls at an old folks home, that never proved to be anything.  Then one day, IT  happened.  A major fire that killed a few elderly residents.  I am sure there were many riding to that call that said" SAME OLD S*.  You never know what is waiting for you, so you must follow the organizational flow chart that is sending you on the fire, and call in the car accident, and give it to the next due units.  Its crappy, but what if you are the reason for hurting or killing your brothers because you thought the other call was "MORE IMPORTANT".

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i bet if it was someone from your family in that car that they drove past to go to the fire you would be tooting a different horn

[xfirefighter484x 234]

There are legal requirements for EMS folks (FF/EMT or FF/CFR are EMS folks) and in the absence of clear department policy (hopefully reviewed by agency counsel) you're going to be on thin ice if you leave a patient regardless of your dispatch status.  We've got two different schools of thought on this and I don't think either side is gonna change their mind anytime soon.

Jonesy, you're absolutely right "Duty to Act" and "Abandonment" are still legal issues for EMS providers.

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Very true. If you stop and are a medical professional (CFR/EMT/Medic) you have the Duty to Act. And of course, once care is initiated, we all know that it cannot be stopped until someone of equal or higher certifications shows up.

For this to happen, you have to stop and be identified. I know if looks bad if you just keep going past an incident, but I have seen it happen, thank goodness it was no serious MVA.

Yes, every minute counts, and the sooner you help the person in an MVA, you try to preserve the "Golden Hour", but consider this.

You are responding (first due, second due, whatever) and come upon an accident scene. Your department has not even been toned/paged out for this yet, so without coming upon it by chance, no one would be on the road for said incident yet anyway.

I hate to sound insensitive, but it does suck for that person, plain and simple.

To re-iterate what many have said previous, you have an assignment. Anything deviating from said assignment is, yes, that thing we have hammered into us from the days of FFI, FREELANCING.

Personally, I have been called to, and am responding to an assignment already. Just call into dispatch or your command and advise of the situation you encountered!

Sorry to rant, but I have been following this thread for a while, and just felt like contributing my bit.

[pjreilly 6]

iF IT WAS MY FAMILY IN THE CAR ECHY, i KNOW HELP WOULD BE NO MORE THAN 5 MINUTES BEHIND ME IF I CALL IT IN LIKE I SHOULD. AND JUST FOR THE RECORD "I DONT TOOT ANY HORNS".

aND cHRIS, WHILE I RESPECT YOUR OPINION, WHY CANT THE BACKFILLING BE DONE ON THE MVA? i AGREE THIS IS GOING IN CIRLES AND CIRCLES, AND JUST BELIEVE THAT YOU SHOULD RESPOND TO WHAT YOU ARE DISPATCHED TO, RELAY THE INFORMATION TO DISPATCH, AND THEY WILL FILL THE CALL FOR THE MVA.

tHATS IT, IM DONE....... NEXT TOPIC PLEASE

[x152 179]

but what if your on a rescue or rescue engine with extrication equipment? do still continue on? If i was riding OIC and we rolled up on a pin job, we are stopping

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Can you define a "pin-job"?

I know this is a responsible discussion about the legal parameters of emergency personnel responding and I was not familiar with the term?

[Guest]

pin-job = MVA in which the victim is pinned in the car - due to structural deformity - and unable to self extricate so the hurst tools to are used to cut and spread the car away from the patient.

I'm sure its also used to refer to other situations which involve pinned victims, but i've most commonly heard it used when describing an MVA

Edited March 29, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[Guest partyrock]

The law doesn't deal with what ifs. Its plain and simple, you see someone in need, it is your job to provide assistance. Lets make this MVA a fire. Would any of you drive past a house with fire blowing out the side on your way to another fire? How about someone with a knife sticking out of their chest? Legaly there is no differnetiation between these serious emergencies or being flagged down for a stubbed toe from last week. If you are made aware of the emergency then you are obligated to stop for it. The only time there is an exception is when transporting a critical patient.

My other point...this is not freelancing. This is not going out of your way to get flagged for another assignment. If you're one the first line, and there is a victim in the hallway is it freelancing for you to abandon advancing the line in order to remove the victim? If you leave the line to seach a room thats a different story, but if the vitim is there at you feet what are you going to do?

[x152 179]

pin-job = MVA in which the victim is pinned in the car - due to structural deformity - and unable to self extricate so you need to use hurst tools to cut and spread the car away from the patient

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ok.....thanks...... I thought it might have something to do with an accident involving sewing (needle/thread/etc)......

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I've been sitting back on this one for a while and figure its time to jump in.

Once you're assigned...you're assigned

So let me get this right if you were responding to a call and you encountered another structure fire or a working car fire....you would stop tell them you notified your dispatch and then continue to the original call? What if you were dispatched to a call and a car pulls up right in front of your bay as your pulling out and a person gets out and says their child is choking or someone just stopped breathing? Do you still stay on your original assigment?

No way. The car accident is no different. Generally if you're assigned to an initial dispatch of a stucture related call as specified in the original post you will have multiple apparatus on the assignment. You stop at the call encountered and advise your dispatch of such to assign another unit to the original call and request additional resources needed for the call you encountered.

One point that a individual made and I'm going to quote:

Its crappy, but what if you are the reason for hurting or killing your brothers because you thought the other call was "MORE IMPORTANT".

I never "think" a call is "more important." The instance questioned here involves rolling up to a MVC which would give me the opportunity to size up and assess the situation. This can start off as a simple question "Is anyone hurt?" If the answer is no, you let them know you will advise your dispatch to have PD sent. If someone says "I don't know" or "yes," you stop at that call. I believe my above points are valid enough about this argument. The world is dynamic, emergency services is dynamic, its not a simple as saying once assigned that's it. I don't live by the "that's crappy" thought process. If something in you says "that's crappy," then it probably isn't correct. The organization flow chart, by whatever that means, has a key word in it flow which means it can change and move based on needs. Resource management is a mainstay of any manager or leader (again note I didn't put them together) and if a person can't handle that on the fly then they not need to be a "manager" and they certainly lack some important leadership qualities.

PJ Reilly, I think you make good points on your side of the issue...but I must ask...what then would you do if dispatch reassigned you enroute to a call? And if you say you would follow dispatch...then why would you pass off a car accident with injuries/extrication? Is it any different?

This type of instance is a prime example of why SOP/SOG's are very important. This is even one where the municipalities attorney's might want to be ask to take a look at it to ensure the department/municipality/district is protected. The only way to ensure you get what you want and its proper under legal precedence is through solid and enforced SOP/SOG's!

[huzzie59 75]

What is FDNY's policy on this subject?

[eckyphats 0]

ok.....thanks...... I thought it might have something to do with an accident involving sewing (needle/thread/etc)......

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hahahahahahah! nice one!

[robert benz 344]

ok new curveball for all the ems folks, you are going on a baby not breathing call and come across the same mva,? or it is YOUR FAMILY MEMBER NOT BREATHING. please tell me in your oath to the ems gods that you will let your family member wait for the next ems unit which can take how long?

MVA which by the way does not mean there is always a life hazaerd could be just someone stuck in the car, just like you guys are saying about every fire doesnt mean someone is trapped.

i had to add a twist

[Guest partyrock]

These things happen. I've been on my way to a confirmed arrest but ran up on an MVA and had to stop and show myself flagged on the MVA. After a quick is everyone OK, I marked the job as EMS not needed and put myslef back on the arrest,

I don't have all the details on this, but according to an EMS Lt out of battalion 20 the Bronx rescue medics 03R wrecked their bus on their way to a baby not breathing. The BLS and CFR Co took in the call and got the baby breathing again. Sh!t happens and its our job to be prepared for it. These scenarios are why most cops carry AEDs, most vacs run w/ ALS fly cars, NYC runs multiple units to serious emergencies, and FD's respond in with multiple units.

You guys can keep on comming up with what ifs, but this is the way it is. You deal with the emergency you have infront of you, not the one you might have.

Edited April 2, 2007 by partyrock

[RWC130 594]

Partyrock, You deal with the emergency you have infront of you, not the one you might have.

EXACTLY!!!!