Structure fire or Extrication?

[pjreilly 6]

then you would also be negligent for discontinuing to the call you were originally dispatched to. It is a catch 22. As I said, call it in to dispatch, there should be units available to handle the MVA

[Guest partyrock]

If you were to deviate from your typical response route to catch an MVA and said you were flagged on that assignment would be an issue. If in performing your normal course of duty you came across another incident you are obligated to ensure there is no threat to life.

[huzzie59 75]

Too many "what if's" for this subject.

Officer on the apparatus needs to make decisions.

Stop and leave one member to start patient care and the appartus goes to the fire?

May be great that you extricated someone, but with out EMS what are you achieving for the injured.

We done live in the boondocks. Mutual Aid works and can arrive in an acceptable time period. Even if Elmsford had to go to Ossining. 15 minute response? And there are 7 or 8 departments in between.

Unfortunatly we all have to make hard decisions in this business.

Nobody's getting sued.

Nobody's being negligent.

[eckyphats 0]

Let's say you were flagged down for a MVA w/ Pin responding to a Structure Fire and you DID drive away......

Negligence

How about?

-Duty to act?

-Breach of Duty?

Legal Ramifications up the %@ !!!

←

I was going to say the same thing. Most FF's are atleast certified first responder, I do believe we have a duty to act, its not like your in your car with nothing that says you are a emergency trained responder. If I was riding officer on the rig and we rolled up on a mva with extrication we would be staying there. It may not be right, it may not be wrong but it could save your dept from legal problem down the road

[pjreilly 6]

I will try this one more time. If you are responding to an incident, you ARE ALREADY ASSIGNED to that incident. Your first duty is to the incident in which you are responding. It would be negligent to deviate from that assignment. It would be your responsibility to notify dispatch, and have them fill out the assignment for the MVA.

[helicopper 1,050]

I will try this one more time.  If you are responding to an incident, you ARE ALREADY ASSIGNED to that incident.  Your first duty is to the incident in which you are responding.  It would be negligent to deviate from that assignment.  It would be your responsibility to notify dispatch, and have them fill out the assignment for the MVA.

←

PJ, I don't think you can be negligent if you are stopping at a life threatening situation such as an accident requiring extrication. You haven't arrived at the other job yet and other units are also responding to it.

At the accident there is someone hurt, risk of fire or fuel leak, potential for other vehicles to crash if the scene isn't safe, etc. I can articulate a dozen reasons to stop but would be hard pressed to justify my position for not stopping.

I see you point about being assigned to the first incident but when I was in EMS we were redirected by dispatch to higher priority calls all the time. I think this is similar to that.

Another way of approaching this scenario is to ask the question, "what call is a higher priority: structure fire or PIAA with pin"?

Great discussion - really makes you think!!

[Oswegowind 17]

Once again, duty to act, is the important factor. If you are involved in an accident then you must assess the scene for injuries, if you come across an accident on the way to a fire you are responsible to do the same. As well, when you are driving around in a marked fire/ems/police vehicle and do not stop to assess the condition whether in your jurisdiction or not, someone may write down your information and hang you. I am positive that this has changed many persons minds (Harrison VAC) about using a marked unit to go to and from work. You can't just pass a blind eye, because the public is not going to miss a big red truck with lights and sirens going by...Your best bet is to stop and address the condition at hand, immediately notify your dispatcher of the condition, begin to go to work if necessary and allow your backup to respond to the other job. They can pass the accident knowing full well that you have stopped to help. And of course vice versa...This in itself is another excellent reason for Police ESU in systems as well. If this situation were to arise in Yonkers, and the FD were to come upon a fire enroute to a MVA then at least they know a tool is still going and can worry about putting the wet stuff on the red stuff. Duplication of service is only dangerous when it is misused...Communication is the only answer...Don't stop and not tell someone that you are stopping!!!!!

[Guest]

I believe you have a responsibility to at the very least, evaluate the MVA. I also think you are obligated to stop and help. This happens in every branch of emergency services.

[robert benz 344]

I believe you have a responsibility to at the very least, evaluate the MVA. I also think you are obligated to stop and help. This happens in every branch of emergency services.

←

this is a good topic for sure, i was and still am under the impression, you dont get to pick and choose your calls, you go where you are assigned, we are talking about a working fire we were assigned to, how can you be negligent for continuing your response? of course you notify dispatch and your chief, and if the chief redirects you, you go were you are told, now the ball is in his court. we need legal advice for this one, not a firehouse lawyer, but a real lawyer who deals with this stuff.

[RWC130 594]

I respectfully still stand behind you have to stop if you are flagged down

for a MVA w/ Pin

I think several members have proven WHY you need to stop.

Can you see the News at 11 PM if you drove off?

"Firefighters leave victims trapped in a car to die"

What happens while responding to a Structure Fire and the Engine, Ladder, or Rescue gets a Flat? They are now Out of Service, Right?

Another Engine, Ladder, or Rescue is assigned to the run just like another

unit can be assigned to the run if you stop for a MVA.

Confirmed Working Fire or not you are NOT on scene.

You are however ON SCENE of this MVA w/ Pin.

Your priorites have now changed and you have a

Duty to Act at the MVA.

Another factor here... Are any Firefighters on board the Fire Apparatus

a NYS Certified CFR, EMT, or Paramedic?

Just my two cents.... Very good topic here.... A lot of good feedback.

HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED TO ANY FIREFIGHTERS OR FIRE OFFICERS?

Chris192, Maybe this should be another thread but question....

You are responding to a Bank Robbery w/ Shots Fired but you are passing

a Dunkin Donuts that is about to close...

What do you do? LOL! Love ya bro!

BE SAFE!

[INIT915 1,119]

Chris192, Maybe this should be another thread but question....

You are responding to a Bank Robbery w/ Shots Fired but you are passing

a Dunkin Donuts that is about to close...

What do you do?  LOL! Love ya bro! 

BE SAFE!

←

RWC-

Banks close at 3PM, D&D closes at 11PM. Therefore, your scenario is unrealstic, as we should never have to choose bewteen those two options.

[Oswegowind 17]

He couldn't get to either...not enough room for an LZ!

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris192, Maybe this should be another thread but question....

You are responding to a Bank Robbery w/ Shots Fired but you are passing

a Dunkin Donuts that is about to close...

What do you do?  LOL! Love ya bro! 

BE SAFE!

←

Clearly, knowing my response area I would already have stopped at D&D and now only have to drive slow enough so as not to spill my coffee!

He couldn't get to either...not enough room for an LZ!

That's why the new helicopter has a hoist - we don't even have to land! Just drop the hook and have them attach a box of joe!!!

[Guest]

Stop. Call it in. Continue.

Leave one of your EMT's (If you have one), the trama bag and a radio.

Continue on to the initial dispatch...you can not abandon the original call.

The person you leave on scene can triage, communicate with dispatch and bridge the gap until the reinforcements arrive.

Of course this all assumes that your dept has EMT's, the engine/truck has more then 3 people on it when it leaves the station, has a trama bag and a portable radio for each person riding.

I think we're all basically on the same page with this one.

[LCFD968 10]

Your enroute to a structure fire ( FIRST DUE)and you pull up on a MVA w/ pin...... My personal opinion quick size up notify dispatch/IC and if life in danger stop and start stabilzing vehicle and/or vehicles and start triage..... If no life in danger advise victims help on the way and continue on your way to original call. Maybe leave someone with a radio and flares if there is a traffic issue or any other hazzards that can make the situation worse. We dont want to leave the victims as sitting ducks either...

Great topic!!

[Remember585 815]

Allow me to throw a wrench in the works here....

You are responding on a report of a house fire. You come up on a different house fire while responding. Now what do you do?

And to answer the other question, Stop, check for life-threatening injuries or any danger that needs to be immediatly neutralized, call for resources and if need be, leave someone / some personnel on scene without drastically cutting down on our manpower.

[Guest]

What I can't believe is this same topic was brought up a few months ago with regards to companies being dispatched on M/A and stopping to render assistance to an incident within their own juristiction and most guys felt it was the companies obligation to continue their response to the neighboring town that requested M/A, especially if it was for a FAST Team, and not stop for a emergency situation within their own boundaries. Now it seems alot of members want these same companies to stop and render assistance to an accident scene within their own boundaries and not proceed to a Job within their municipality! In my opinion it's a judgement call at that particular time as to what is more life threatening, especially if your responding M/A. Not for nothing guys but my own come first. An mva with entrapment is a definite life hazard. A structure fire for the most part is a potential life hazard, unless otherwise informed by dispatch that people are definitely trapped. Can we please all use are friggin heads on this one! Thank You!

[Guest]

Its my opinion, professional and personal, that if a unit comes across an incident they - 9 out of 10 times - should stop, notify dispatch and command (who will then assign an extra unit or mutual aid) and render care accordingly. The only instance in which i would not stop is assuming i was en route to a cardiac/respritory arrest (or equally life threatening situation), something where time can mean the difference between life and death.

This is a difficult situation to generalize, however. In a city/municipality which has substantial resources, assigning and reassigning units is not a big deal. However, operating in a combined/all-volunteer situation your faced with a much tougher choice. Your going to have to factor in a large ammount of time, from the time your orginally dispatched - your response to the firehouse - waiting for manpower - leaving - coming upon the accident (which has been there how long?) - notifying dispatch - having them tone out a M/A company - having them respond to the FD - gathering proper manpower - responding. In the best of circumstances your looking at 10-15 minutes.

I know in Putnam there are "automatic mutual-aid agreements" which start out companies/resources when given certain dispatch information (IE: structure fire/smoke in residence, etc.). Knowing this is the case, the decision becomes much easier. Simply, having yourself assigned to the MVA an an extra rescue/engine company assigned from the already dispatched M/A company.

As far as making ones decision based on life threats - i'm not sure if i understand or follow the logical progression involved. Whenever i'm dispatched on a run, i always assume that what im to encounter is going to be life threatening. Its my belief that putting everything on a level playing field - because often you only have a vague idea of what your going to - allows you to tackle the problem in an aggressive and systematic manner. So, if you ask me, a structure fire and MVA w/ extrication are equally life threatening. Plus a pin job dose not necessarily = a serious threat to life!

Edited March 25, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[Oswegowind 17]

As far as making ones decision based on life threats - i'm not sure if i understand or follow the logical progression involved. Whenever i'm dispatched on a run, i always assume that what im to encounter is going to be life threatening. Its my belief that putting everything on a level playing field - because often you only have a vague idea of what your going to - allows you to tackle the problem in an aggressive and systematic manner. So, if you ask me, a structure fire and MVA w/ extrication are equally life threatening. Plus a pin job dose not necessarily = a serious threat to life!

←

What??? You believe in putting everything on a level playing field. Do you not trust the dispatch information????? I mean if you are dispatched to a report of a person not breathing and the Comm Ctr is EMD qualified, and later you are dispatched to a sick person with hematuria, you respond the same? Come on...the dispatchers aren't going to go out of their way to mess with you about the type of call you are being sent to. I mean one I would use my lights and sirens and the other I would most likely take upon myself and not risk anyones life for, whether it be my own, my partners, or any other person on the road!!! I would take the sick on a nice ride without lights and sirens. Safety first, and if I came upon an MVA enroute to either that looks serious I would stop and advise immediately of the condition...get out and assess the condition, update the dispatcher...and decide whether to continue or get someone else to go. Time means everything is right, but if someone was found at a home in Cardiac arrest and they call 5 minutes later then you are sent and have a 10 min drive...say one of the people in the accident that just occurred is in cardiac arrest...you have a better chance at saving their life with immediate care...It is an unfair world and we cannot decide who lives and dies...we just have to do our best all of the time! Duplication of services remains important...Police/Fire should all be trained as First Responders at the very least and should be dispatched on all EMS calls to assist. Cars/Apparatus should all be equipped with defib's without a doubt.

Sorry if I went off the original topic just a little bit!

[x134 46]

What???  You believe in putting everything on a level playing field.  Do you not trust the dispatch information?????  I mean if you are dispatched to a report of a person not breathing and the Comm Ctr is EMD qualified, and later you are dispatched to a sick person with hematuria, you respond the same?  Come on...the dispatchers aren't going to go out of their way to mess with you about the type of call you are being sent to.  I mean one I would use my lights and sirens and the other I would most likely take upon myself and not risk anyones life for, whether it be my own, my partners, or any other person on the road!!!  I would take the sick on a nice ride without lights and sirens.  Safety first, and if I came upon an MVA enroute to either that looks serious I would stop and advise immediately of the condition...get out and assess the condition, update the dispatcher...and decide whether to continue or get someone else to go.  Time means everything is right, but if someone was found at a home in Cardiac arrest and they call 5 minutes later then you are sent and have a 10 min drive...say one of the people in the accident that just occurred is in cardiac arrest...you have a better chance at saving their life with immediate care...It is an unfair world and we cannot decide who lives and dies...we just have to do our best all of the time!  Duplication of services remains important...Police/Fire should all be trained as First Responders at the very least and should be dispatched on all EMS calls to assist.  Cars/Apparatus should all be equipped with defib's without a doubt. 

Sorry if I went off the original topic just a little bit!

←

I can honestly say and with no disrespect to any dispatchers out there I don't believe it untill I see it. It dosen't change my response but more times than not call takers are getting or giving the wrong info and I understand they can only get or give out what they are told but more than a few times I have gotten to an alarm and the age of the pt was wrong ,what we were dispatched on was wrong, the address was wrong. As I said I am not knocking anyone I just don't believe it untill I see it. And just a question why do agencies respond hot to priority 3 or 4 calls then transport cold to the hospital? Talk about risk to the public and yourself. ALS-I KNOW YOU WILL HAVE A BALL WITH THIS ONE. LOL.

[emt301 4]

more times than not call takers are getting or giving the wrong info

←

more times than not? I understand what you're saying...as a calltaker, I can only go with the information the caller gives me, and as a dispatcher, I can only go with what's given to me by the calltaker. But...more times than not the information is wrong? That, my friend is a bit overblown....I've also been a responder in the field, and the majority of the time the information was either dead on, or at least very close/in the ballpark.....no offense intended, just a friendly disagreement here.

[x134 46]

more times than not?  I understand what you're saying...as a calltaker, I can only go with the information the caller gives me, and as a dispatcher, I can only go with what's given to me by the calltaker.  But...more times than not the information is wrong?  That, my friend is a bit overblown....I've also been a responder in the field, and the majority of the time the information was either dead on, or at least very close/in the ballpark.....no offense intended, just a friendly disagreement here.

←

As I stated you can only tell us what you are told on the phone call. If the info you get is wrong there is nothing you can do about it. I am just saying it seems to happen alot. It's just as frustrating for you as it is for us in the street. I do trust you guys don't missunderstand me. I am just saying that I keep all the info that I get but expect the unexpected.

Edited March 25, 2007 by drobison82

[Guest]

I think there is some misunderstanding. I never mentioned anything about my response and weather or not i trust dispatchers, i don't know where any of that came from. I trust the dispatchers like i trust my partners, even though their miles away, there still right there with me short of being their physically (if that makes any sense!). Dispatching information is only as good as the caller who gives it, i know that!

I respond non-emergency when my protocols call for it, and respond emergency likewise.

As far as putting things on a level playing field - its my own metal methodology. I've been dispatched on ankel injuries that turn out to be cardiac arrests. So, the point is, in my head i assume that everything has an equal degree of life threat, and i start breaking things down as i make patient contact, question and treat the patient. I was simply explaining my opinion/mental methodology- nothing more.

Going to any medical call is really detectives work most of the time. Because there are countless reasons why someone can have back pain, belly pain, diff breathing, chest pain, etc. i tend to say ok - rather than getting crazy here - lets just assume this is a life threatening condition. Make pt. contact, do my ABCs, start questioning pt. and next of kin/witnesses as i get vitals, have someone get a list of meds. All of this while i knock off probably causes. Rather than blow patients off b/c of a "bs" routine job, i prefer to go in be aggressive in tackling the problem, give the patient the best care i can give and get the patient the appropriate definitive care.

Edited March 25, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[Guest BFD196]

Something that bothers me here is the original poster states that at the MVA you are 100% sure there is a life hazard, where as the structure fire you arent. I'm not willing to gamble that someone may or may not be trapped at the structure fire. The difference in time it takes for second due to get to the fire because I stopped at the MVA may be the difference between life and death for a trapped occupant. I would slow up at the MVA, tell them help will be there momentarily and call it in to dispatch. There are plenty of other units in town that can handle the accident, and get there quickly. I will admit, I might look at this differently if I knew mutual aid couldnt get to the accident as quick as it can here in Stamford, but in my opinion I have to go to the fire.

If we were dealing with an alarm that comes in every week, a water leak, or some other service call thats not life threatening, then I would be more likely to have mutual aid handle that call, and stop at the accident.

[emt301 4]

As I stated you can only tell us what you are told on the phone call. If the info you get is wrong there is nothing you can do about it. I am just saying it seems to happen alot. It's just as frustrating for you as it is for us in the street. I do trust you guys don't missunderstand me. I am just saying that I keep all the info that I get but expect the unexpected.

←

Gotcha !! I do understand your point.

[RWC130 594]

Someone mentioned we should seek some legal

advice on this topic.

STRUCTURE FIRE OR MVA W/ PIN that you are flagged down

for on the way to the Structure Fire.

I called a Lawyer I know who is involved

with Emergency Services.

This is what he said......

"Are people injuried"?

My Reply: Yes

"MVA becasue of confirmed personal injury"

[Guest]

I've had only two incidents of this nature, in almost 30 years. The first was a stabbing victim, hanging on a mailbox. We were on a single engine call. I asked for an ambulance, dropped 2 men with med bags, and requested another engine to meet me at the original call. I was not questioned about that decision.

The second involved hitting a parked van. It was a box assignment and units were already on the scene. I believe our policy is to stop when involved in the accident.

If I were faced with extrication vs fire, I'd need more info before I made a decision.

The decision takes in so many factors that a "plug-in" formula doesn't seem to exist.

[eckyphats 0]

Stop. Call it in. Continue.

Leave one of your EMT's (If you have one), the trama bag and a radio.

Continue on to the initial dispatch...you can not abandon the original call.

The person you leave on scene can triage, communicate with dispatch and bridge the gap until the reinforcements arrive.

Of course this all assumes that your dept has EMT's, the engine/truck has more then 3 people on it when it leaves the station, has a trama bag and a portable radio for each person riding.

I think we're all basically on the same page with this one.

←

but what if your on a rescue or rescue engine with extrication equipment? do still continue on? If i was riding OIC and we rolled up on a pin job, we are stopping

[Guest partyrock]

Checked with the lawyer...If you knowingly drive past someone who needs medical aid no matter what you are responding to you are at risk for legal action. If you see an incident or are otherwise made aware of an incident where there is a potential for injury or illness you are now obligated to initiate patient care. There is a grey area here depending on what your agencies SOP's are. If there is a written order or policy that dictates you notify dispatch of the incident then continue in, you are safe. Your agency may be vulnerable, but you would be covered. If there is no standing order reguarding this situation you are best served and never wrong for stopping and taking care of this new incident.

My lawyer wanted to make it very clear that you are never wrong if you stop to check before continuing in.

[firemoose827 324]

You're not self dispatching if you come across an incident on your way to another call.  That's apples and oranges.  Self dispatch or "buffing" is when someone (for whatever reason) chooses to go to a call without being requested or assigned.  Coming across an incident is simply that, coming across an incident. 

What if the IC is not on the scene yet and doesn't know what he wants or needs?  What if, what if, what if, what if?

Another point is that when you come upon the accident requiring extrication, you become the IC for that incident so what do YOU want/need?

I'd like a legal opinion on whether or not any of us should "pass" a car accident or other call for service without stopping to render aid or at the very least make the scene safe.  The time lost dispatching another agency to the response area already sapped of resources by a working fire job can mean the difference between life and death to a trauma victim.  Sorry, but I think you gotta stop at the accident requiring extrication.

Great topic!  This one really makes you stop and think!

←

As far as EMS there is NYS rules for EMT's called duty to respond and abandonment. If they see an accident with injuries they need to stop and render aid, " Duty to Respond." If they see the accident, stop and see that no one is hurt badly, slap a bandaid on someone or toss a cold pack to someone than go on to the fire, its called "Abandonment".

Its been a while, am I right? Are these laws still in place? The other question is are there even EMT's on these engines at all or are they just firefighters.