basement fires in OMD

[hudson144 150]

if you look at the post of the 10-77 in the bronx you might want to think of what hazards,problems etc that you might encounter if you were to face a similiar situation. If you notice they called for help,yes help- requesting additional units is a priority,manpower is essential for not only firefighting but for a thourough primary search and manpower for ventilation. Add onto this what else you might consider if this was to happen here in westchester co.

[hudson144 150]

must not be an interesting topic????????

[R1SmokeEater 359]

Hudson, Try a topic on warning lights or chevron striping............

[Guest]

Hudson, Try a topic on warning lights or chevron striping............

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Damn beat me to it!

[hudson144 150]

i would say something but the last time i did all hell broke loose, be safe!

[ajsbear 11]

OK, lets see if we can get some momentum.

Think about the issues you have with a basement fire

First we have the rest of the structure. OMD? OK, smoke on all or some of the floors? Evacuate the building. Primary and secondary searches.

Next fighting the fire. Basement fires are quite different. You've got ventalation issues, entry and secondary exit issues. Heat has no way to disapate.

What else? Lets split this into 2 areas. A the rest of the structure and B the basement.

[Remember585 815]

I'll admit one thing - I haven't faught a fire in the basement level of an OMD, but I have seen a few and read books and articles discussing them. (I know, who cares...)

With that said, based on my lack of experience in this scenario, here's my thoughts.

Send someone in to the first floor with a hook (or other tool) to poke around the floor and check it's stability. If it is getting shaky and soft then I wouldn't send someone in below it.

If the fire is involving contents and not the actual structure, I would think an interior attack is the way to go. If it is safe to do so, have personnel on the first floor open up the floor and be ready with a line. Let the fire vent thru this hole to reduce the beating the guys inside the cellar are getting. Keep a line in place should fire appear to keep it from spreading. If there is more then one-way in to the cellar, use one of them as a vent location and put your line(s) in another.

The big thing - READ THE SMOKE. The smoke can tell you a lot and will help make the decision whether sending people in is a viable choice.

Hey, I'm taking a guess here - please tell me if I am wrong! Hopefully if I am someone will NICELY give me some other ideas!

[Guest partyrock]

What type of OMD are we talking here. Concrete floors and there is no way you're venting through the floor. When you make your attack you're going to need big water. Vent as best you can then make a push down the stairs. You're probably going to be down on your stomach taking a beating, but as far as fire goes these area about as good as it gets.

[Remember585 815]

Any thoughts on a cellar nozzle?

[hudson144 150]

just reading the most recent and up to date of LODD on the USFA site I want to mention that of the 18 deaths already this year 2 of them were from firefighters falling through the floor. as we chat here about basement fires I want to open this to basement fires in general. Just to mention that the first in line or crew should have a TIC. By using the TIC

as a primary tool as you enter the structure you might find that the floor in front of you might be burn't through such as the 2 mentioned in the USFA report. while were at it a scan above you is a priority also.

[Guest partyrock]

Any thoughts on a cellar nozzle?

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outside of wood frame residential its a tough tool to put into service

just reading the most recent and up to date of LODD on the USFA site I want to mention that of the 18 deaths already this year 2 of them were from firefighters falling through the floor. as we chat here about basement fires I want to open this to basement fires in general.  Just to mention that the first in line or crew should have a TIC. By using the TIC

as a primary tool as you enter the structure you might find that the floor in front of you might be burn't through such as the 2 mentioned in the USFA report. while were at it a scan above you is a priority also.

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In '06 the two fatalities due to floor collapse that I know of were no because the floor burnt through. The floor was poorly reconstructed after a previous fire and the fire damage from the basement fire resulted in a prematre failure. A tic would have done nothing to prevent this. I would not rely on a tic for inspecting the floor. If you can't see it you should be crawling and if the fire is in the basement you need to be sounding the floor the whole way across it. Don't reach out with a hook to see if its there. Use the back of an ax or your haligan and bang that floor so you can hear how solid it sounds. Its a skill that truckies know well and the engine doesn't do too often.

[hudson144 150]

the 2 incidents that i was referring to was from this year (2007) The TIC can be used on the first crews going in,yes if you can't see you crawl,when using the TIC your basics still have to be followed.If there is indeed a fire burning through the floor from the basement a well trained ff using the TIC correctly will notice the high temp on the screen of the TIC. Thats the importance also of being trained on the tool that you have. yes sounding the floor is key but that all falls in under following the basics. In some cases you may not even realize that the fire is in the basement.

[Guest]

wow...it actually has legs....I would say your first big issue is access/egress...is it in the interior or exterior (old law/ new laws) and after that I would agree w./ the above...big water...then how are the occupants effected, smoke on upper floors or fire traveling up chases

[16fire5 693]

a couple thoughts here

In a real old turn of the century type MD there will probably be interior wooden stairs to the basement. This will be a difficult fire and the first line should protect the interior statirs while a second line enters and extinguishes from the exterior entrance if there is one.

In all MD's since the early 1900s basement is usually of fireproof class 1 const. which makes things a lot easier for you. If there is an interior stair it will be enclosed and seperate from the normal stairway. Usually you can get in from the outside.

The concrete floors question by partyrock is a good one. In 1966 12 FDNY members were killed when a basement fire caused a collapse into the basement of an old law tenement. The concrete terazzo floor was partially blamed for both hiding the fire and overloading the floor.

As for getting down the stairs with the line if your going to go that way, the best technique may be going down the stairs rapidly and having the line handed down to you. It may sound wierd but it works. The top of the stairs is the worst place it's like holding your head over the chimmney. Getting down the stairs as rapidly as possible is less punishing but if you make the commitment to go down you better be sure your going to put the fire out.

[Guest partyrock]

Hudson stole my rant right from under me. New tools and toys are great, but know your basics. Let these advances allow us to perform our job faster and more efficiently.

As for getting down the stairs with the line if your going to go that way, the best technique may be going down the stairs rapidly and having the line handed down to you.  It may sound wierd but it works.  The top of the stairs is the worst place it's like holding your head over the chimmney.  Getting down the stairs as rapidly as possible is less punishing but if you make the commitment to go down you better be sure your going to put the fire out.

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16fire5 is spot on. When its ripping you're gonna have to go slidding head first into a chimney. It may not seem like it, but going down before the hose line may be the best way down. Once you're down there with that hose get it open and don't let go. Getting out is rarely an option. If its that bad going in its going to be worse and probably impossible comming out so you're going to have to make a difference.

A few keys...

Know your building contruction. I was once told (and it seems to hold true) more ff's die in basment collapses than all other floors combined. Basments present unique conditions that help to exacerbate fire conditions. You're brain is whats going to make the difference here.

If that floor isn't rock solid when you cross it don't even bother finding the basement, the fire is comming to you.

Find the extension. Fire and heat always spread and basement fires have the fewest routes of ventilation. That means there is more heat and flame attacking your chases and voids.

Once you're in a basement if you can't get yourself out you aren't getting out. Here more than anywhere else don't go where you can't fight your way out. Anyone with any rescue training knows the hardest place to move a victim is up the stairs. If its too hot for you to get yourself out no one else can get you out.

[JM15 386]

I think that another important part of this scenario would be building construction and materials. Lets say that it is balloon frame construction you would have to send guys up to the attack to make sure that the fire hasn't spread. The construction is also important because then you can tell how much fire load that floor can take without damaging its integrity.

[hudson144 150]

we all know the basic rule of protecting the stairway for the egress of the occupants, for a basement fire that we had on this past new years eve in a 2 1/2 story wood frame the initial line that was going to go into the basement from the interior basement stairs was no good because when you got to the base of the stairs in the basement the basement was divided . yes SRO's are in the basements also not just on the upper floors,wherever they can they will partitian the rooms to make more sleeping quarters for others, the fire was put out by going into the rear of the structure and utilizing the exterior basement doorway. the crews had a straight shot at the room involved with fire with no chimney effect at all.

[ajsbear 11]

Remember when making entry into a basement the smoke has no place to vent so visability will be even more limited than usual. A TIC can be helpfull but watchout, As its been said here basements can be divided into rooms and apartments too. Watch out for the heat, smoke and know your way around. Remember your path. Don't become disoriented.

[Guest]

I've only had the pleasure of a couple of decent working basement fires. One important move that the conditions will help drill into your head:

GET OUTTA THE STAIRWAY! If you can get down there, do it safely, but quickly. You'll take a beating in the stairway.

Repeater: BIG water, lotsa people! Better to have'em standing around and send them home with no work than have to call them in a pinch.

[eckyphats 0]

I've only had the pleasure of a couple of decent working basement fires.  One important move that the conditions will help drill into your head:

GET OUTTA THE STAIRWAY!  If you can get down there, do it safely, but quickly.  You'll take a beating in the stairway.

Repeater:  BIG water, lotsa people!  Better to have'em standing around and send them home with no work than have to call them in a pinch.

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Agreed.... if theres more then one way to the basement you best bet is to send a line on the alternate way to fight the fire and have a team holding the stairs from the top with a line., ventilation is key, if theres windows, basement fires without windows aka cellars, well thats a whole diff ball game. The windows should be vented to release all the super heated gases in there, its no fun melting your knee pads and helmet, trying to get to the seat of the fire ( I was in a basement fire 3 or 4 years ago and had the TIC crap out on me, its rated to roughly 1600 degrees, RIT! a must, with every line going in there should be a backup one of equal size or larger, lines to the upper floors are must, if ya have a balloon from and and you pull up with a good working basement fire, chances are you will be seeing fire showing from the top floor and attic in no time.

Edited March 2, 2007 by eckyphats

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The road of basement fire risks is paved with the case studies and investigation reports of our brothers and sisters whom have perished or been injured while operating in and above these incidents. As many of us have mentioned there is much to be learned by reading these reports on an individual and departmental operational level. Thanks to the brothers for their input which has given me fresh thoughts and reinforced some others. Some of which I think are extremely critical for a safe and successful operation. Those being:

1. A good solid size up of fire conditions and of building construction.

2. Pulling the proper size line for the job.

3. Ensuring that 2 in/2out is established for crew safety.

4. Taking into account #1 and making a go/no go decision.

5. Have a proper command structure in place

6. Ensure a water supply has been established.

Finally I also want to add that it is important that whenever operating in a basement, many are a form of a confined space with limited egress and not designed for continous occupancy. Even an incident that would be considered low in risk or for a lack of a better term "routine" can spell disaster if not managed correctly. I think of an LODD incident in Ohio http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face9806.html where 2 firefighters were killed after handling what appeared to be a bread and butter electrial incident with a small fire. When one of the crew members pulled a small section of ceiling to check for extension, there was a backdraft in the ceiling space and caused a significant collapse of the entire ceiling down upon them. Killing 2 of the crew whom couldn't exit. Some of the things that were cited (recommended) for departments to implement to prevent further incidents like this are some of the numbered items I mentioned. Here are some NIOSH reports from NY incidents involving basement fires:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200206.html

[Arrowxt 8]

Have been following the thread.

All good responses, the best have been the ones with size up involved.

With balloon frame odds are the floor is wood , and the stairs themselves could be used for ventilation , "and/but" you better have the manpower to vent the floor that the stairs are leading up to the entry level (horizontal) and the manpower to catch the extension and the fire spreading to the floors above through the walls verticaly. In this case punching a hole in the floor above the basement fire (coordinated) and applying an extinguishing agent to the seat of the fire would save a lot of stress on the firefighters that will have to go down the stairs at some point. And hopefully the crews operating on the floors above will be able to catch it in the walls before it hits the attic.

If not older balloon , and lets say a Ranch style, they still in most cases provide a small basement window which can be used for horizontal vent when you are either punching above or pushing down.

They are scarey fires in the fact that, if there are people habitating apartments there , there means of escape is usually limited.

As far as concrete floors go, I do not see many if any of them , ( my location) but I can see the problem they face to those who have to deal with them.

Arrow

[hudson144 150]

with this post i opened with it being aimed at OMD,later i mentioned to basement fires in general. tonight we had a fire in a 2 1/2 story woodframe. The 1st line was to the interior with the thought of protecting occupants. as crews searched for the stairway to the basement ( obvious basement fire because flames were blowing out basement windows) it was not located. the other option like i had mentioned earlier was to use the rear access door. this was the best route. the hoseline that was stretched via the rear entry found the seat of the fire in the room involved . a bed room recieved heat,smoke & water damage. was this set up with the bedroom legal? probably unlikely. As we searched the first floor the door to the basement was found. it was a small door recessed into the wall and not looking like a regular sized door which re confirms what was mentioned about the new years eve fire. you never know what you might find, renovations? illegal apartments etc.

[gss131 212]

One main thing that comes to mind is utilities.In omds it is possible to have 2 or 3 banks of gas meters,(one for each wing).It is important to get main shut asap.Ive seen basements where the main shutoff was 200 feet from the farthest bank and the street shutoff couldnt be found..Preplanning woul help greatly in this case.it is not uncommon to find these meter rooms turned into storerooms,containing everything from mattresses to paint,even illegal apts.We had a job in a htype where the guys held off the meters till the shutoff could be made almost 20 minues later. The whole key is to cool the exposures without putting out the fire.,and keep manpower nearby for guys to take over the line for bottle change if necessary.We need more topics like these.

[firemoose827 324]

Im surprised not too many of you mentioned all of the Haz-Mat that could be found in basements, especially when attached to garages. There could be gasoline, paint, oil, propane cylinders, and maybe acetylene tanks for welders. Must get good info from the tenant/owner as to what we can expect which points out to Good SIZE UP.

Second, as mentioned prior to me, the utilities. There are electrical panels in basements, and by dumping tons of water on these fires you could get an initial electrical hazard untill the meter is pulled. But even than sometimes the meter doesnt take away the hazard, SAFETY. Always send in the probie or the dept loud mouth first! JUST KIDDING.

Also, instead of old fashioned firefighting, how about High Expansion Foam? Why jeopardize lidfe when you can dump thousands of square feet of foam on it to knock it down, than send the line in to overhaul.

Just a story here to enlighten you all. My father was at a basement fire YEARS ago, and he was on the tip. He said he went to crawl down the stairs and there was only 3 steps and it leveled off. He was confused, and thought maybe it was a landing so he started to look for more steps and found none. He saw fire and it was HOT, so he opened the line and knocked it down. As soon as the crews vented it and the smoke cleared he saw what he was crawling on....MOUNDS of GARBAGE.!!! Apparently the people did not want to pay a company to haul their garbage and just conveniently stored it in the basement. It turned out to be a deep seated fire in 5 feet of garbage that was started by the pilot light on the furnace. Talk about overhaul!

Remember to size up, and use your basic skills. Sound every floor, do a walk around, check for utilities, and always look for a safe approach to attack the fire.

Be safe all. Think Spring

[Guest]

All valid and useful points. Maybe someone mentioned it already - keep the outside crews from sticking a line in a cellar window - ruins the inside guy's day quick.