Use Of Emergency Warning Lights On Rigs

[61MACKBR1 222]

What are everyone's opinions pertaining to when a Department is drawing up their Specifications on New Apparatus being ordered and the Lighting and Siren Packages that they want to have added to their new rigs. Allot of discussions have come up recently pertaining to Federal Q Sirens, Mechanical Sirens, Roto Rays (See Attached Photo of Washington DC Rig), Dual Mars 888 Warning Lights, Powercall Sirens, etc. etc. A number of our Local Departments have New Rigs currently on order. Do you think that having allot is "Too Much" and not effective or having a Rig "Fully Stocked" with all of the latest, such as Dual Mars 888 Warning Lights, A Roto Ray on the Front, Federal Q or Powercall Sirens, makes the Rig more effective when responding to an Emergency Call (Day or Night) an truly effective? Your Thoughts?

[61MACKBR1 222]

In addition to the Washington DCFD Photo Above (With Use of Roto Ray), here is a photo of a Rig that has "Mutiple Sirens", to be used as part of the topic discussion of either "Just Right" or "Too Much"

[fjp326 42]

In addition to the Washington DCFD Photo Above (With Use of Roto Ray), here is a photo of a Rig that has "Mutiple Sirens", to be used as part of the topic discussion of either "Just Right" or "Too Much"

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Definite overkill there. Just one of those mechanical sirens in the front is enough to scare motorists into an early grave, can't imagine what four of them sound like. I'm sure they could have come up with a better way to spend their funds.

Edited February 24, 2007 by fjp326

[Guest]

In addition to the Washington DCFD Photo Above (With Use of Roto Ray), here is a photo of a Rig that has "Mutiple Sirens", to be used as part of the topic discussion of either "Just Right" or "Too Much"

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I don't think anybody is going to able to hear that

[hudson144 150]

CRIMINAL!

[batt2 145]

One has to wonder what the current drain on that rig's electrical system is when all those devices are utilized. I remember how one Federal Q used to make our Enine's lights dim at initial startup. There is a trend toward use of strobes and LEDs because of their electrical efficiency and service life. The Federal E-Q2B draws 30A as opposed to the Q's 100A. We have handlights, HT batteries, Sawzall batteries and TIC batteries on charge in our rigs. We now have on-board CAD computers being installed. When specifying new apparatus we have to look at the big picture.

We have used Mars Lights and rotating lights in the past. They were a maintenance pain. Maybe it was our hills and bumpy roads but they were difficult to keep in service.

Edited February 24, 2007 by batt2

[TR54 239]

TOO much on the Q sirens.

Question: Do Roto Ray (not 8 Mars) stop spinning when the apparatus is stopped on scene?

Thanks

[Guest]

Although the four Federal Q's do look nice, its total overkill. The amount of lights being put on rigs these days is pretty crazy to me. These new rigs with a hundred million lightheads, although they look pretty sweet, are pointless to me. Just my two cents..

Edited February 24, 2007 by SSFD168

[antiquefirelt 994]

TOO much on the Q sirens.

Question: Do Roto Ray (not 8 Mars) stop spinning when the apparatus is stopped on scene?

Thanks

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Yes. The Roto-ray on our new tower only is engaged when the transmission is in gear. We feel that it does have a significant benefits as it is completely different from any othe vehicle warning lights, therefore it gets attention! And it does! We gets tons of comments about it. Of course this is the first unit in our area to have Roto-ray so it stands out (Red White Green)

[61MACKBR1 222]

An Apparent Satisfied Roto Ray User. Does anyone else have any comments (Pro or Con) pertaining to either the Roto Ray System or the Mars 888 Light System

[scopino 0]

My opinion is I'd rather have more warning lights than audibles, I mean a Federal and an electronic siren as well as air horns should be more than enough to grab attention from motorists. That said no matter how much stuff you have on your rigs you cant be blowing through intersections anyway, there has been many times I come up to an interesection with everything on and people still dont get out of the way or pull over. I guess its the deer in the headlights syndrome. Plus officers cant hear whats going on over the radio when your trying to deafen everyone. I guess everything in moderation.

[mikelouf2 0]

It does not matter how many lights or sirens you have some people just

will not pull over i think they are brain dead and have no clue what they

are doing

Edited February 25, 2007 by mikelouf2

[22 Truck 6]

An Apparent Satisfied Roto Ray User. Does anyone else have any comments (Pro or Con) pertaining to either the Roto Ray System or the Mars 888 Light System

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Pro - Roto Ray, Mixed - Mars Lights....The combination really grabs your attention when the truck is coming down the street, but a problem I ran into was with one of our apparatus operators who would turn off the front mid-level warning lights responding to night time calls because the clear oscilasers bother his eyes reflecting off of the road. The Mars 888's are generally the same concept, but on a larger scale so I'm sure he would've had a fit with those. Since then, we have replaced the front ocilasers and flashers with LED's...much more effective, and it doesn't bother him at night. It may look good coming down the road, but is it functional for all of your operators?

[EXDC203 38]

Hey 61mack...............what dept was that????

What idiot authorized that rig???

[NYMedic37 22]

In addition to the Washington DCFD Photo Above (With Use of Roto Ray), here is a photo of a Rig that has "Mutiple Sirens", to be used as part of the topic discussion of either "Just Right" or "Too Much"

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I must agree that having multiple sirens is overkill. Better to spend the money elsewhere.

Paul

[Guest partyrock]

I can't imagine that set-up being real. 4 Q's would draw 400amps during wind up.

[22 Truck 6]

I can't imagine that set-up being real. 4 Q's would draw 400amps during wind up.

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It's only 2 mechanical Q's, the other 2 are electronic siren speakers recessed in the bumper with the traditional Q cover/front piece....I know you can buy them separate if you are buying the EQ2B, but I believe it is possible to just flat out buy them and throw them in front of any speaker just to look cool, may not even be the EQ2B siren. Based on the green warning lights on the officer's side, I'm gonna take a stab and guess that the truck is out of Illinois?

[Guest car2267]

The roto rays are awesome, when i was stationed at naval air station ocean in virginia beach i noticed that all of the virginia beach fire trucks have the roto rays, they get your attention veryquickly. I hope the next apparatus we get in mohegan has one.

[IzzyEng4 427]

That truck does not have 4 2QB's, Its only two mechanicals and two Federal Electronic Q's (they have "gills" to go over the speakers to make them look like the . But still for sirens, One Q, one NFPA recommended electronic siren with a PA and one set of air horns are more than enough enough.

As for lighting, it is so easy for going overboard. I believe you don't need 15 light bars on your roof two roto's and 3 Mars lights to do the job like some departments do. If you keep the minimum lighting requirements of 1901 and add may be a extra set of flashers on the rear of the truck and a single roto or Mars / oscilaser then fine.

I know of a department that has every single bell and whistle on the truck and it is an electrical nightmare, too much amp draw.

I'm all for viability and making yourself heard (like my straight pipes on my bike, no comments please) but enough is enough! Good money can be spent on the truck for far more better things.

[Doc 11]

I believe that rig is from Mount Horeb, Wisconsin. All their new rigs are being delivered with two Q's. I'd call it OVERKILL.

http://www.fdmh.org/

Also, check out their AMBULANCE with... a Spartan cab!!

Some departments just CAN'T find enough reasonable ways to spend their money. With all the bells, whistles, do-dads and widgets they have, I imagine (I HOPE) their training program is second to none... but I doubt it.

[steve shryock 0]

It does not matter how many lights or sirens you have some people just

will not pull over i think they are brain dead and have no clue what they

are doing

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Sounds about right.

[Guest]

What are everyone's opinions pertaining to when a Department is drawing up their Specifications on New Apparatus being ordered and the Lighting and Siren Packages that they want to have added to their new rigs. Allot of discussions have come up recently pertaining to Federal Q Sirens, Mechanical Sirens, Roto Rays (See Attached Photo of Washington DC Rig), Dual Mars 888 Warning Lights, Powercall Sirens, etc. etc.

When we had our new tower built (See 2006 Pierce Calander/December), the lighting package was dictated by NFPA requirements. This set the minimum for what was required where (Colors/sizes/qualities). We were able to deviate from the standard as long as we met the requirements. Pierce indicated that they needed to meet the NFPA standards at time of delivery. The other option was to sign a waiver stating we did not want the vehicle to meet the NFPA lighting standard prior to starting the build.

Once we owned it, we could do as we please. The only change we made after delivery was to have the Q2 function with the steering wheel horn button when the lighting master was activated. When delivered, this defaulted to the DOT horn unless changed manually by the opertor.

[Guest]

It looks to me like they designed a show/parade truck insted of a work truck. How would one justify the funding for that?

[Guest]

I've seen rigs that have soo many lights, they're visible from space. Rigs with strobes, LED's, halogens, a Q-Tone and electric sirens. The whole rationale, to move traffic fast.

During my stints with the Frankurt Fire Dept in Germany, their rigs have two rotating blue lights in the front and one in the rear. If they wanna overkill it, they put two halogen grille lights in. And they have a Hi-Lo air horn for a siren. And they move traffic with no problem. The added safety feature their, new rigs have Day Glo paint to add more visibility w/o the added lights.

In summary, I think that those rigs that have more lights than normally seen on any given airport runway have way too much money to spend on useless items.

You don't need 10,000 lights or 4 Q-Tones on your rig. Departments need to grow up and find a median/compromise. Departments shouldn't be in the market to buy the Brightest and ludest rig. Functionality is primary, not "My Truck is brighter and louder than the rest".

Think, with the added savings from buying a few less lights and sirens, what NECESSARY equipment can you buy for your new rig.

[BFDCAR5 0]

Having that many Q's and electronic sirens just wont tax the electrical system but will also effect the members hearing while riding on such a piece.

Having multiple sirens like what we are seeing is causing joe public to be confused when hearing one of these peices approach the intersection thinking that there are more than one unit comming thru.

[Arrowxt 8]

I wonder how all of those Q's effect the standard of noise level that has to be met in the cab?

I wonder where all of the money that was spent on the Q's and electric sirens could have been used for?

I wonder if they realize that a good percentage of motorist who do not pull over or yield , do not because they are startled and scared by a normal siren?

I wonder if they bothered to upgrade there electrical system to cover the load, and again wonder why they would waste funds for just that?

I wha wha wha wha wooonnndeeer...........

Just my thoughts

Arrow

[Remember585 815]

Here's something that I have been thinking based on my observations.

Vehicles today are designed to keep out noise. People are talking on their cell phones, text-messaging, listening to their "premium" radio systems and in some cases, wearing headphones to hear an IPod or other music player.

I have noticed a growing trend where apparatus responding with mechanical sirens are holding down that pedal and not giving the siren the chance to wind up and down. The decrease and increase of the mechanical siren will grab someone's attention much better then when it is fully cranked and operating at a higher pitch. Also, holding down the air horn until you drain your air supply isn't wise either. Giving a few blasts as opposed to a prolonged tug of the rope will "startle" the air and will have a better chance of grabbing someone's attention.

Another dislike of mine is the phaser. I used to use it all the time because I thought it was cool, but over time I have grown to actually hate it. What is it's purpose?

Adding all the lights in the world isn't going to make a difference. People today are so distracted by their own issues that a 30 ton fire engine rolling up behind them with 10 forward facing flashing lights and a "floored" Q siren aren't going to phase them. Anticipate the worst when approaching any vehicles and especially any intersections. Tap the horn a couple times, give the Q a couple of short winds and hope for the best.

Now, if we could get in the habit of using warning devices for true emergencies only......but that's for a different day.

[Guest partyrock]

Thanks for bringing this up remember, lets get down to the science of it. People are often firghtened and get that deer and headlights thing going on when we approach..right? Part of that is they don't know which way the noise is comming from. The ear figures range and approach angle based on changes over time. You need to modulate the siren, crank it up and let it spin down repeatedly and regularly as you approach an intersection or traffic obstruction. Same goes for the air horn, regular quick blasts are more effective than laying on it. This changes when you are in the line of sight of the person who's attention you are trying to get. This is when you want alot of steady noise (crossing an intersection against the light).

In cities and neighborhoods with solid blocks of tall buildings. Theres a whole other problem problem thanks to this guy doppler where sound bounce off buildings and lead to false angles of approach and approach speeds. This is best countered by using consistant and varying sirens or horn blasts.

Cars are quieter and we are more distracted. You need to practice good siren technique (yes like everything else there is good and bad technique). Spin up your siren early, not just when you are on top of people. They need a chance to hear you, realize what you are, and then react.

[x242Steve 1]

I agree about "Winding the Q"... I was on my way home the other morning, listening to Howard Stern at a medium volume, in a hard-top Jeep (not much sound-proofing)... My point is, I was neither blasting my radio nor in a sound-proof box... Anyhow, TOR E62 was coming up behind me en route to an MVA and I wouldn't have noticed him until much later had it not been for the mechanical siren.

Also, as far as front-facing warning lights go, I wonder what considerations are being taken to design warning lights that are of appropriate height/varying throw for reaching the back windows/mirrors of today's SUV population, but that will still get the attention of the Lieutenant driving his Honda Insight (SFRD folks will get the reference.)

Edited March 1, 2007 by 242steve

[Remember585 815]

We really don't have to depend on the rig manufacturers to design the rigs to throw light at the optimum heights / levels. With our new Seagrave we laid out our lighting scheme the way we did to try and get warning lights lower for cars and a little higher for SUVs and pickup trucks. It's an NFPA warning light compliant package that isn't over done.

A few people have asked why we went with strobe bars instead of LED. When we discussed it we all spoke about the "reflection factor" the strobes have off highway and street signs. LEDs are bright, but we felt that strobes tend to grab the reflective material in signs better then LEDs. If people are driving and looking forward and we are coming up behind them, I like to think that our strobes (especially the clears) refelcting off all the signs ahead may prompt drivers to look behind them.