Fire Horns - Nuisance or necessity?

[TRUCK6018 50]

This topic comes around every now and then. Mount Kisco being the latest to get scrutinized on this practice

Mount Kisco's repaired fire horns irk some

 

By SEAN GORMAN 

THE JOURNAL NEWS 

(Original publication: August 29, 2004)

MOUNT KISCO — It's been a familiar sound for decades — horns echoing throughout the village alerting firefighters to a call. But when the system broke down about 18 months ago, the noisy alarms were suddenly silenced. 

In recent months, the horns atop Village Hall and the Lexington Avenue firehouse have started sounding again, and some residents wish they hadn't. 

They say firefighters, who also have pagers to alert them to calls, should simply rely on electronic communications instead of the old-fashioned air horns, which cause passers-by to shudder. 

"It blasts out and there's no possible way to sleep through it," said Royal Potter, a 74-year-old Mount Kisco resident who lives on Stewart Place about a block from Village Hall. "Even in the daytime, it's a hideous sound." 

Mount Kisco Fire Chief Frank Mannion said he understands residents' concerns. After all, Mannion said, he also lives close to Village Hall and his children grew up through the racket. 

Despite the noise, the system serves a purpose — providing another way to alert volunteers, the chief said. 

"It's part of a redundancy that's built into the system," Mannion said. "We think it really is important to our dispatch system, and we want to keep it." 

The horn system was broken from February 2003 until June 2004, when Mount Kisco paid about $40,000 to repair it. During the hiatus, the village became a bit quieter. 

"It was a pleasure. I could sleep nights," said Carmela Vittorini, 82, who also lives on Stewart Place. "When they hit me, I just jump out of my skin." 

Potter, board president of the Stewart Heights cooperative apartment complex, wrote Mayor J. Michael Cindrich last month saying the horns' reintroduction was not welcome and other towns had gone to electronic alerts. Cindrich said he had received about a half-dozen letters complaining of the horns' reactivation. 

"We have to weigh the public safety aspect against, I guess, the quality of life," Cindrich said. "I don't think they (the Fire Department) would be asking for it if it was something unnecessary." 

Cindrich added that there could be communications problems affecting electronic devices. Other departments in Westchester continue to rely on horns and sirens to help alert volunteers, said Anthony Sutton, Westchester's emergency services commissioner. 

"It's still very common practice in many departments, particularly in the rural departments in many areas of the county," Sutton said. "I'm sure that most people's expectations are that with the advent of the technological age, that sirens are no longer a necessity. At some point in the future that may be true, but for right now they still fill the gap of notification." 

If a firefighter's pager is broken or he can't hear it because — for example — he is mowing the lawn, the horn could still alert him, Mannion said. Over the years, the department has taken steps to lessen the horns' use, knowing they are a nuisance, he said. 

Former Mount Kisco Fire Chief Richard Hooker, however, said it's questionable whether the horn system is needed, and he noted that the Fire Department had survived more than a year without the horns. He suggested running them only from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. 

"I would tend to believe we should do what other towns have done and limit the use of them," said Hooker, who also lives at the Stewart Heights complex. "Do you need to wake everyone at every incident?" 

Departments in Larchmont, Katonah and Yorktown are among those that also use horns. Some neighbors in Larchmont also complain about the sound. 

"I think the people in the fire service have a point ... that it's always better to get more notice out," said Larchmont Mayor Ken Bialo. 

Other Westchester departments, particularly those with paid firefighters, don't rely on horns, Sutton said. Mount Kisco Village Manager William F. Williams said he had asked the fire commissioners to consider restricting the horns' use to the daytime and expected to hear back from them next month. 

Brian Streb, who has a co-operative apartment at Stewart Heights, likens the system to fog horns, calling it an "anachronism." 

"It's something that has sort of outlived its (usefulness)," Streb said. "With technology, I think there's a better way of serving the community." 

Send e-mail to Sean Gorman 

 

[Guest DADAY]

Working in mount kisco and being a firefighter it makes me aware of a call. I have no pager do to the fact that i am a member of a different dept. I like the horn leave it working.

[DMA327 12]

I have always found horns and house-sirens to be great for knowing there is a run when your out working in a yard using a lawn mower or a chain saw. It gives you another way of listening.

Maybe when the condo goes up and nobodys' pagers work and they stop the use of the horns.... uh-oh better luck next time!

](*,)

[DMA327 12]

You cannot always garuntee the pagers going off every single time and all it takes is once!

[TRUCK6018 50]

I agree with everyone here that says leave it. I think the solution to the complainers is to give them an application to join since they're up already.

Then ,hopefully, these NIMBYs can see what it's like not just to get awoken at 2 in the morning but to also get up break your a$$ fighting the fire, then have enough time to go home, take a shower and go right to work.

[Mini-Attack9 39]

THE PUBLIC SHOULD JUST MIND THERE OWN BUSINESS....BECAUSE IF THERE HOUSE WAS ON FIRE BELIEVE ME THEY WOULD WANT THE HORNS BLOWING....THE PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO COME FROM THE CITY....DEAL WITH IT PEOPLE

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Tradition is good for 2 things, reminding you where you are and keeping you from where you need to be.

Why do you need it, when it was gone for 18 months?

And if your only going to use it during the day, then why do you need it at all?

If I lived across the street can I blast my music occassionally in the middle of the night as an alarm clock whether I really need it or not?

Why do some as volunteers think we are owed something that we choose to do? We choose to bust our @sses regardless whether they want to or not. Just like you have the option of not getting up for a auto alarm or not. They have a right of opinion and quality of life just like you do.

If you can't guarntee pagers going off, a horn isn't necessarily a fix to the problem. Maybe 1 or 2 but that happens period.

I love how the John Q Public opinion gets thrown into things. When your house is on fire, they don't care if a bell, whistle, siren or friggin fireworks display goes off. They want the thing with water to show up.

Finally that had to be the most idiotic, and unprofessional comment I've ever seen made here. "The public should mind their business." You have got to be kidding me. I had to laugh, what do you think we, or better you are here for? Your kicks? The public has every right to know what is going on. That comment is right up there with the worst comment of all, "I wish we'd get a fire." Anyone that says that in front of me gets the same reply...."no prob, I hope it starts with your house or a family members."

[Pyroinvestigator 0]

WOW..again a brilliant reply...good for you alsfirefighter......I couldn't have said it any better myself!!!!!

[WAS967 97]

I used to live less than a mile from the main Mohegan Fire House. I rarely if EVER heard the fire horn. Now tell me this: how much area does the average fire horn/whistle/kazoo cover and what percentage of the active membership lives within that radius? What do the people who can't hear the noise do if the pagers don't go off? And not for nothing, a lot of fire whistles/horns/party favors are set off by the same electronic notification that sets off the pagers. So if the pagers don't work, what makes you think the fire horns will?

[Guest irishfire]

the siren is a great thing to go around cause those people that have pager that might leave them in their house and not hear them when it goes off cause they are outside away from the pager the siren could let them know to got in side and listen to what is going on.

i was only little at the time but when Verplanck Took the siren off for EMS call i would see the ambulance go down the road and not know what was going on and sometime not even know what is going on cause there is no siren.

[57truck 1]

Im all for the use of fire horns/sirens, just to get a consensus how many depts in county still utilize these methods to supplement the fire pagers that members carry?? Im just curious to see how many depts still use horns.

[TRUCK6018 50]

We still use them but have cut back significantly over the years on their use. They get set off mainly for physical fires. We do not set them off for minor alarms.

We recently had a problem that the radios were not opening up the pagers and the sirens were the only way some knew there was an alarm. So yes, the "tradition" of it all is very useful.

We also keep them around as a secondary means of alerting as required by ISO.

[Guest DFFD227]

Dobbs Ferry still uses sirens and horns. We have two stations, one is in the middle of town, and the other is in the East side of town. No matter where you go in town, you will always either hear station1 siren, or station2 siren. You can actually hear Station 1's siren all the way in Hastings. I also think it's good for us Junior FF's because some of us don't have pagers, and is a good way to get them alert.

[Guest VFDJrSqd02]

I know Valhalla has a sirens/horn...i would be sitting in school and hear the horn go off. Then my eyes are glued to the window instead of the boreing teacher because one of the houses is right down the road.... They r also good for the students in school that are firefighters in valhalla to know that there is a call b/c the pagers have to be turned off... Keep the sirens.

[Remember585 815]

We did away with our horns in the late 90's - much to the disappointment of our members. To this date, guys say we should bring them back so we can hear calls. One of the people who makes this comment lives OUT OF TOWN and out of range to hear it! We used to have the horns affixed to our Grand Street firehouse and Harmon Firehouse. We could hear them for miles. They were great, but were costly to repair, and if the PD used the wrong box code - then people would go to the wrong firehouse - oh wait - that never happened, because people HEARD THE LOCATION and APPARATUS ASSIGNMENT ON THEIR PAGER!!!

Hate to do it, but I agree with ALS, they are not needed anymore.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

Keep the system. As annoying as they are, they still serve a purpose. While not "as" crucial to the mission of the fire service as they were in the past, it is important to have some type of back up to our pager system. It also provides in giving notice to the public that the FD is nor responding to a call, and that they should be alert to responding members being called into service. I know. There is someone out there saying. "It's the members responsibility to use due care" While this is true. Isn't it nice when we get a little help from the public? I know it helps me out.....

[BFD1054 1,552]

Wait.....DMA, someone actually let you use a chainsaw? LOL, just kidding man!

House sirens are just one of those things that people love or hate! Personally, my departments house siren is terrible, so i can barely hear it anyway, except on occasional quiet summer nights lol! I have a brand new Minitor-4 pager & a fire department issued Nextel that receives I-Pages from 60-Control, so if i miss a call, theres something wrong! I look at it this way, if i am that far out of my district where my pager doesn't go off, than i am probably too far away to respond anyway! I don't rely on the house siren at all and frankly do not care if we have one or not. But as other members have said, a lot of it has to do with tradition, which shouldn't be the case. There are the "old-timers" who will say that the sirens have been there for a zillion years, so leave them alone. The old-timers are also the ones who hear the siren, respond to the firehouse and don't have a clue as to whats going on and where to go because they don't have pagers to listen to! I hate when you are at the firehouse and a call comes in & you can't hear what it is because the siren is going off. When you finally do hear the run & get in the rigs, 60-Control can't hear you and you can't hear them because of the house siren lol! So personally, i would have to say that they are a nuisanse rather than a necessity!

[Stench60 29]

I'd have to go on record as saying that they are a useful tool in the fire service.

While I've seen my own department whittle itself down to a single whistle from 2 bells (not house bells, actual fire bells), a horn and a whistle up until the mid '90's and even that whistle has been out of service for quite a while due to the batteries for the gamewell system no longer being available, I've also seen a corresponding drop off in the manpower at working calls.

In a smaller Department pagers are generally available to everyone, in a larger Department they have to be rationed to only the most active members. The whistle/horn was a great way to turn out the guys who didn't have pagers but would respond to major incidents.

As to the pager and nextel issue, belive me with a lawn mower, leaf blower, being in church etc. you don't hear the pager.

The really important part of this is, if I'm not mistaken NYS law requires an audible signal if the fire service is predominantly volunteer. The city of Rye went through this several years ago and that was the reason they were kept over the extremely vocal objections of the NIMBY/ FOT crowd.

Heck, I can remember as a little guy the horns going off in Mt. Vernon for a fire.

[x635 4,066]

  They have a right of opinion and quality of life just like you do.

True.However, My issue that irks me with people complaining is when they move into a neighborhood fully aware of a something that has existed for a long time, and then start complaining about it and expect it removed.

Example:This neighborhood is directly adjacent to a highway. It's been there for 50+ years, as has the house. Recently, a new couple moved in. Not even 2 weeks in the house, they are already petioning to have sound barriers installed to block out the parkway. They were fully aware of the parkway being adjacent to their home when they moved in, and now they want it their way? Its these freakin yuppies who are invading and ruining Westchester to blame.

But there are certain reasonable things. For example, I know some people have a "I'm up, you're up" policy. But is it really neccaray to be using the Q siren and air horns fully through a resd neighborhood at 3 in the AM????? I work hard all day (usually all night, lol but that screws my storyn up), then I come home and would like a goodnights sleep. Now, going with my theory that most calls are created by either stupidity or laziness, why do I have to be woken up for someone elses problem? That's your business if you want to be up going to the call, not mine.

As for the whistle, they are a great small town tool, but they should be a emergency backup method only. A 99% reliable radio system, alongside a cell phone text paging system, should be the focus. It's 2004.

On a side note, it was once said the whistles are used to warn motorists driving nearby. Do a survey and see if anybody really cares, lol

In reality though, I want to see the horns stay, just because I hate the yuppies and their demanding and selfish, self centered ways, screw 'em!! Can't afford a decent place to live where I want to live because of them. They forced out there real, true residents of this county, and have ruined it forever. Just my opinon though.

(Sorry if the above post was incoherent, just got off a 24, lol)

[DMA327 12]

Well we got rid of the horns in my dept. and we only set of the house sirens when the dispatchers do it correctly, but many firemen used to find that when we had horns and sirens all the time, people would know firemen were going to a call and to expect blue lights running around town. Now nobody knows and not many people even know what a blue light is, or what the authority of it is.

They are also great for when you out somewhere without a pager and hear the sirens going cause u know there's a call. Can't keep the pager on in church or places of that nature but if u heard them blowing a general alarm on the horns and u knew it might be the real deal and get going to the firehouse.

I hope they stay in communities

Seth... =D> As for these mutha f**** yuppies....hahaha HATE EM"

[TRUCK6018 50]

... and not many people even know what a blue light is, or what the authority of it is. 

Hate to break the news to you, there is no authority to having a blue light. So the few that do pay attention to it, and the even fewer of those that yield, what's the difference?

[mfc2257 464]

Below is a message I returned to somone who posted some pretty nasty stuff on the Millwood FD web page last summer. It all but stopped the complaints regarding the siren. It's just a FYI.

Edward Smith

Captain - 2254

Millwood Fire Dept.

Sir/Madam

Thank you for your inquiry with regard to the siren alert system that is utilized by the Millwood Fire District. Please let me first say that the system is used as a supplement to the radio and digital paging system that is utilized and is NOT used casually just because we can. Second I am confused as to why you use the term "single point of failure" in your inquiry. I would question why it is a "failure" at all.

- We have implemented more modern techniques such as radio and digital pagers (so YES we have done better as you say)

- We do not get dispatched to medical calls (I agree that siren alert systems for a one victim, one ambulance call is unnecessary)

The Siren provides several benefits for us:

- During blackouts, members pagers will eventually run out of battery power. The fire stations have "stand alone" power systems run off powerful diesel generators that can power the siren and alert our members.

- County radio coverage of the western portion of New Castle is spotty at times. If a pager fails to "trip" for one or more members the siren can be heard. The same can be said for a member who is recharging a pager at home and may be working in another room in the residence. He or a family member can hear the siren and respond in a timely manner.

- In times of an elevated emergency state, such as last weeks blackout OR Hurricane Floyd (the MFD ran 80+ calls in 36 hours) the county can become overwhelmed with 911 calls and many general alarms will come directly to the fire station. We can dispatch ourselves however our radios are not as powerful as the county's and the siren is a tremendous supplement.

- The siren is a means of letting trucks that may be making deliveries to local businesses know that they may need to move their vehicles so that fire apparatus may exit the station in a timely manner without being blocked or impeded.

- Finally, as a point of safety... The Millwood Fire Department is located in an urban area. The siren system also alerts members of the public to the fact that there is an emergency in the area thus letting them know that multiple emergency vehicles will be on the roadways in their vicinity either immediately or in the near future. In addition, it alerts those members of the public that are near the fire station that they should use caution to avoid costly incidents or injury.

We are aware that the siren is loud enough to wake our neighbors up at night and we are sensitive to the issue. However living next to a rail station or rail crossing, freeway or busy roadway could produce the same levels of noise from time to time. We are open to constructive and educated commentary as to how we can better use our siren system as a supplement to the primary dispatch technology that is significantly more advanced than the siren BUT not yet a 100% perfect means of dispatch under all circumstances.

Thank you.

Edward Smith

Captain, Millwood Fire Company.

[WAS967 97]

Very well written letter. I can see why most people failed to retort.

[DMA327 12]

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

[TR54 239]

Many of my thoughts reguarding the Pros And Cons of the Horn system have already been posted.

I would just like to say that I have actually responded to about 20 to 25 alarms by being alerted from the Horn/Siren system , and then monitoring 46.26 to get location. This includes being asleep,,,waking up to the House SIREN and driving a rig the fire!

If the Horns were eliminated I'm sure the members would make the best of the change.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Seth,

I can see we dance around the edges but have the same thoughts and opinions. I also give a earful to those whom have stated the I'm up they're up routine. And it usually ends with find another job or hobby. That is also a iditoic statement.

As far as those whom just moved into a neighborhood and complaining, can't agree with you on that one. Regardless if its 1 year or 1 hour, you have a right to a quality of life that you wish to have. Don't dislike them for bringing up what they don't like. I'm a house owner myself, moved in on Nov. 1st of last year, I'm already asking for some engineering to a nearby intersection to be changed for safety reasons, as well as the possibility of putting in speed bumps to slow people down on a long straightaway from my house up to about nearly a 1/4 mile. And on top of that, my vollie dept. has a siren. Again they don't use it past 11pm, only for structure related calls. I live nearly and probably less then 1/10th a mile from my station and have to strain to hear it on a clear quiet night. Daytime, forget it. And why use it for a handful of select calls? Is any call we get on initial dispatch less then any other? Doesn't every fire alarm have the potential for being a working fire? How many of you have no policy in regard to responding to a fire alarm, but don't use your siren/horn. Meaning you run hot to a fire alarm, can get into a needless accident or cause rebound accidents on something that is around 99.9% false or non-emergent in nature, but deem it "ok" not to blare a horn/siren?

[x635 4,066]

Seth,

 

  As far as those whom just moved into a neighborhood and complaining, can't agree with you on that one.  Regardless if its 1 year or 1 hour, you have a right to a quality of life that you wish to have.  Don't dislike them for bringing up what they don't like.  I'm a house owner myself, moved in on Nov. 1st of last year, I'm already asking for some engineering to a nearby intersection to be changed for safety reasons, as well as the possibility of putting in speed bumps to slow people down on a long straightaway from my house up to about nearly a 1/4 mile.

ALS-

Some things, like the complaints you mention, are valid.

Yes, you do have a right to voice your opinion if it is now your house. However, do you buy a product you know you don't or won't like the way it is, but then complain to the manufacturer to change the product you own, even though you know it would cost millions in construction and block x635's view of Rescue 3 and Engine 150 responding to an MVA? My opinion, which I also have a right to, and it's not changing......you buy a house, you should do your homework as to the location. You buy a house in New York, you expect snow every now and then, right? Thats not changing. (or the people that moveed in next door to a firehouse, and then expect the firehouse to move just becuase it was annoying them, that was in some newspaper I was reading a few month back. The firehouse moving was the only solution they would accept. )

[Stench60 29]

you buy a house, you should do your homework as to the location

.

Amen, this is like the people who buy homes at the end of a runway and then complain about the airport. Or next to or across the street from a firehouse and complain about noise, or next to a beautiful babbling brook that floods them out when we're hit with torrential rains. These are the same people who build beach homes right on the water, have them swept away by the next hurricane and then expect the government( we the taxpayers) to pay them for it.

What kind of numbskull buys a home without looking at these kinds of things?

[hudson144 150]

Alot of valid points here,i"ll throw one more in,mohegan fd hasn't used the siren for years and when ever there is a call you see a flock of yellow jackets (people in turnouts) at the incident,it almost appears that each fd may have its own issue when it comes to this,a reminder,mohegans district is around 40 sq miles!with communications getting better all the time to include the nextels any dept who does not supply a reliable pager to its members should be ashamed of themselves especially when the "white hats" are driving around in vehicles worth more that $40,000!BE SAFE!

[Remember585 815]

Good point Hudson!