Flaws found in firefighters' last line of defense

[Guest]

An interesting article on the failure of PASS devices that MSNBC did-part 2 will be on their site tommorrow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16890732

[JohnnyOV 2]

http://emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=16250&hl=

beat ya to it

Edited February 5, 2007 by EMSJunkie712

[Guest]

beat ya to it

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OPPPPSSSSS!!! Sorry 'bout that!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The more the merrier. This info has been around since 2005. The new revalations of how the government wanted to cover it up is disturbing. Just as we teach in survival and other courses, you cannot rely on any single one piece of equipment if you get in trouble. Unfortunately, if you are rendered unconscious or incapacitated the PASS may be your only option. There are calls by NFPA to improve testing requirements.

Stand by also for possible changing in SCBA mask testing as well.

[Guest]

This is one of the most frightening stories I have read in a while. Scary because both for the explaining the failures of a device we all depend on and a COVER UP BY THE GOV'T! To think that 15 firefighters died last year in situations where a PASS device failed is sickening. I hope that some real awarness is raised and changes are made.

What is also sickening is the lack of response that this thread got when compared to the five pages that cops and blue lights gets. What are we here for and what is the most important focus. We have days long arguments that include career and volly bashing yet no one responds to this thread. This one effects all of us no matter what your affiliation. However, for some reason, a thread on SOAP gets more attention....

Where are the volunteer fire associations and career unions. Isn't this an area that deserves the greatest amount of attention and energy?

Edited February 6, 2007 by lfdR1

[Guest]

I think I will wait to see what comes of Kerrys call for an investigation to be done by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16994965/

[Monty 35]

What is also sickening is the lack of response that this thread got when compared to the five pages that cops and blue lights gets.  What are we here for and what is the most important focus.  We have days long arguments that include career and volly bashing yet no one responds to this thread.  This one effects all of us no matter what your affiliation.  However, for some reason, a thread on SOAP gets more attention....

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Mmmm, maybe because this is a no brainer. Kind of tough to argue this one. I did pass the info on to my SO - god forbid anything happens!

I guess some of the things to say are:

• Spread the word to other brothers and sisters that PASS may be unreliable
• Test regularly
• Contact your elected officials

I did go to Scott's website to see if they had anything to say on this topic - they didn't.

However, they are advertising a new kind of radio tracking system for FF's (Pak Tracker) - wonder how thoroughly they're testing that!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Some of the problems isn't always with the manufacturer. If the PASS Alarms they are selling with their equipment passes the current testing requirements its not on them. Some of the testing isn't as totally in tune with actual firefighting demands as they should be.

Case in point, a fire instructor in PA was killed while performing live fire training in a burn building at their state fire academy. Subsequent experimental burns by the academy staff in trying to recreate the conditions in the room at the time he died, have found that the facepiece's lens can become pliable and able to push your finger through the lens when exposed to high heat for extended periods of time such as during live fire training. No one has reported this during structural firefighting and the testing required by NFPA on facepieces does not replicate this either. Manufacturer of facepiece the LODD was wearing recognized their findings however they did state that the mask meets the testing requirements and isn't designed for such continuous heat applications as found with live fire training.

Get the word around...it should be already..this was known in 2005. Also to clarify, the 15 deaths weren't all last year, it has been 15 known since 1998.

Edited February 6, 2007 by alsfirefighter

[Guest partyrock]

I don't know alot about radio communications, so I'm looking for some help on this. If I remember correctly 2.4 GHz is the frequency that most WiFi connections transmit on. They are also succeptable to interferance. Is this addressed with encoding or is there a chance you could be picking up someone's internet connection on the other side of the building. Is the transmitter powerful enough to reach through walls? If a guy falls through to the basement am I going to be able to pick him up or do I have to be at the hole? With recent stories on here about how vulnerable our radios are to high heat as well as pass devices I don't see these holding up any better.

[Guest]

Also to clarify, the 15 deaths weren't all last year, it has been 15 known since 1998.

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Thanks for the correction, ALS. It's still too high......far too high

And Monty, this is not a no-brainer. Soap, flashing toy lights and fancy sirens are a no brainer. I like those things too, but they don't bear ANY importance by comparison. It would be interesting to hear what members of this board have experianced as far as PASS usage. It would also be interesting to know what others are doing about it, thats how you build a unified response.

[Guest]

Thanks for the correction, ALS.  It's still too high......far too high

And Monty, this is not a no-brainer.  Soap, flashing toy lights and fancy sirens are a no brainer.  I like those things too, but they don't bear ANY importance by comparison.  It would be interesting to hear what members of this board have experianced as far as PASS usage.  It would also be interesting to know what others are doing about it, thats how you build a unified response.

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Thank god there are still guys out there who care about the safety of their brothers...not just paint jobs and sirens...lfdR1 is exactly right in both of his posts, this is a topic of paramount importance. This site has been the battle ground for so many guys who love to start trouble between paid and volunteer and the basis is always under the guise of "safety". Now this is a topic that is completely about safety and it gets buried. Maybe the "local" members who monitor this board as well as the volly chief officers should take a better look at this issue. And yes ALS this info has been out for over a year (especially the Tommy Brick stuff) and still nothing has been done. All these unions(mine included) and training officers refer to NFPA and OSHA as if they are the be all and end all, when this is clearly showing a huge disparity in standards. This is the fight they should be fighting, not about whether the guy behind you on a line is getting paid or not, or whether his uniform smells like a freshly cut meadow. Lastly I take offense to the statement that was made regarding the fact that we can't count on our equipment and so we need better training...I know it was made by a guy who trains as a job but that implies that a fireman who dies in a fire didn't have the right training, and thats not only proposterous, its a slap in the face. Training is the most important, but if we can't count on our equipment when the s%*@t hits the fan then we might as well go back to surround and drown...my soapbox just broke so I'm going back to silently reading...sorry for the rant

[Guest]

I don't know alot about radio communications, so I'm looking for some help on this.  If I remember correctly 2.4 GHz is the frequency that most WiFi connections transmit on.  They are also succeptable to interferance.  Is this addressed with encoding or is there a chance you could be picking up someone's internet connection on the other side of the building.  Is the transmitter powerful enough to reach through walls?  If a guy falls through to the basement am I going to be able to pick him up or do I have to be at the hole?  With recent stories on here about how vulnerable our radios are to high heat as well as pass devices I don't see these holding up any better.

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I'm not sure what 2.4 GHz has to do with this, and if you could tell me I'd appreciate it.

However, to answer your question 2.4 GHz is used by both the 802.11b/g standard and some cordless phones. 2.4 GHz is also the resonant frequency of water (which is why microwaves operate at this frequency).

Basically what this means is that the 2.4 GHz band is crap for the following reasons:

1) A lot of devices (microwave, WiFi, cordless phones) operate at that band and thus there is a lot of electromagnetic interference.

2) It is the resonant frequency of water so any large body of water (fire hose, water tank, a person) will seriously decrease the signal strenght because it will absorb a lot of energy.

Interference can occur regardless of how you encode the data.

[Guest partyrock]

Feel free to seek out a stronger soap box next time. Your rant is spot on and appreciated. However I take offense to the "freshly cut meadow" comment. I use fresh scent!!

[Arrowxt 8]

Everyone,

Good discussion. Glad to see it is getting attention. As far as PASS alarms , they should not be the final line of defense for us.

Hey look at the automobile, first they did not have seat belts , then the lap belt then the over the shoulder belt , then the air bag used in conjunction with belts, then roll protection ......and so on.

So with that being said , big deal we intergrated the PASS with air flow, what about advancing beyond the PASS alarm, or grow using the PASS as a first line of protection.

Every tool we are given is NFPA compliant, but in reality NFPA is the lowest standard needed to be achieved to market a product that the lives of everyone here depends on.

Arrow

[mllax14 18]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16991877/

This is part two of the MSNBC investigation, its four pages titled “CDC’s fire investigation unit: the ‘No Go Team’ Agency that examines firefighter deaths typically arrives 33 days later”

Note the interactive section on the side; take a look at the timeline, does that bother anybody else as much as it bothers me.

Here is a reaction to the articles

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16994965/

Now lets see how long its takes for something to get done.

[Guest]

Everyone,

Good discussion. Glad to see it is getting attention. As far as PASS alarms , they should not be the final line of defense for us.

Hey look at the automobile, first they did not have seat belts , then the lap belt then the over the shoulder belt , then the air bag used in conjunction with belts, then roll protection ......and so on.

So with that being said , big deal we intergrated the PASS with air flow, what about advancing beyond the PASS alarm, or grow using the PASS as a first line of protection.

Every tool we are given is NFPA compliant, but in reality NFPA is the lowest standard needed to be achieved to market a product that the lives of everyone here depends on.

Arrow

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you are exactly right that this should not be the end of our safety evolution, and I don't believe it is...that being said it is supposed to be the best we have right now, and worse, every one of us has been told that it will work when needed. If it doesn't work 100% of the time that should be made clear and we must act accordingly. But my point in bringing this up is not to indict the manufacturers, but rather to pass the onus to our "leaders" to make changes. We are suppossed to have lobbies in place with the IAFF and the NVFC among others and yet this is old news with no action. These groups rally and accept money under the premise that they have our safety in mind but I don't recall seeing any group speak out against this. We wouldn't use a pumper that works inconsistantly or a saw that stalls all the time, why we accept this is beyond me. Every fireman should demand that their officers investigate this further before someone else dies, or else tell everyone using a mask that the PASS alarm may not work. You can "comply" to all the "two in, two out" garbage you want but when things go wrong where's the back-up?

[sr71 1]

i think that this is disgusting!. the goverment covered up the facts on our last line of defence. when we go into buildings with our packs on we assume that everything will pork properly and function. there is no reason except carelessness on the goverment and the companies parts to not make a product that is reliable and it should work. i would like to thank the cdc for not caring. and i pay my respects to the ones who were lost because of this.

[Guest]

But it does require that the PASS device produce a sound after some of the torture tests; the old standard just required it not to melt or catch on fire.

It is good to know that my pass alarm might not go off but it wont catch on fire. Who cares if it doesn’t catch on fire. If it isn’t going to do its job than what is the point of including them on packs. Further more, the major manufacturers stated that they would be unable to meet the new standards that will be put in place over the summer. Although the new requirements are more demanding they should be even tougher than they are going to be. 10 seconds in extreme heat, that is not a very rigorous test. The higher temperatures that they are testing at, are conditions that we will hopefully never encounter but if you get lost and cant get out you could be in those conditions for longer than 10 seconds. All of the tests should be done at higher than regularly encountered temperatures for longer periods of time. That would show that these devises will work when they are used out on the fire scene, where they are needed. I am going to take a gander here and say that if a firefighter goes down it is generally because there are very extreme conditions and that is what these tests should be testing for. They should be testing the equipment at higher than normal temperatures for longer than normal times.

My pack is my life line. It is what gets checked before any thing else get checked on the rig. I turn on the air, take a breathe and let it cycle through until the pass has been activated and then let it scream for a few seconds. But now you are telling me that my pack still might not work properly, even though I check it regularly. This makes me angry knowing that my life line might not function properly when I need it most.

Is there any way to have the packs checked? I would like to know if the packs that are on my rigs will work properly. I wonder if these companies like Scott will test packs if they are sent to them to see if they will function properly in the extreme conditions at no cost to the departments. If they are not going to issue a recall will they at least test the Pass alarms in these conditions.

[Bunkers 0]

FROM THE NFPA WEBSITE...

Principal Changes to NFPA 1982

Once notified of the possible deficiencies in PASS, the NFPA Technical Committee on Electronic Safety Equipment, in cooperation with NIOSH and NIST, studied the issue and incorporated revisions into the 2007 edition of NFPA 1982. The new edition of NFPA 1982 contains revisions providing for strengthened performance requirements and testing addressing the alarm signal degradation issue and also addresses other issues including problems caused by vibration, probably during transportation, and water ingress into the electronic and power supply compartments. The principal changes contained in the 2007 edition of NFPA 1982 are:

-new water immersion requirements and testing for PASS where PASS is exposed to 350° F for 15 minutes and then to water submersion in 1.5 meters (4.9 ft) also for 15 minutes for each of 6 cycles; and PASS examined to determine no water ingress, all PASS signals must function properly, and electronic data logging functions must operate properly; following this, PASS is re-immersed in the test water for additional 5 minutes with the power source compartment(s) open, and following the 5 minutes the PASS is removed from water and wiped dry, then the electronics compartment is opened and examined to determine no water ingress;

-new high temperature functionality requirements and testing to now have PASS mounted in a circulating hot air oven at 500° F for 5 minutes and the PASS alarm signal must function at or above the required 95 dBA sound level, electronic data logging functions must operate properly, and no part of the PASS can show evidence of melting, dripping, or igniting;

-new tumble-vibration requirements and testing for PASS where PASS is “tumbled” in a rotating drum for 3 hours and the PASS alarm signal must function at the required 95 dBA sound level and electronic data logging functions must operate properly;

-new “muffling” of the alarm signal requirements and testing for PASS where PASS is mounted on a test subject and evaluated in five positions (face down w/arms extended, supine left, supine right, fetal right w/knees drawn to chest, fetal left w/knees drawn to chest), and the alarm signal must function at or above the required 95 dBA sound level

Reporting PASS Malfunctions

Emergency services organizations and emergency responder personnel are encouraged to report any PASS malfunctions and other problems with proper functioning of PASS directly to both the certification organization whose certification mark appears on the PASS, and to NIOSH – NPPTL. They can be reached at:

SEI, the Safety Equipment Institute (certification organization), e-mail at info@seinet.org .

NIOSH – NPPTL, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health – National Personal Protection Technical Laboratory at NPPTL_PASS@cdc.gov .

Important Safety Recommendations for the Fire Service and other PASS users

In spite of the problems with PASS, NFPA believes that PASS remain an important tool for fire fighters and other emergency responders. NFPA recommends that, at least until PASS designed and certified to the new 2007 edition of NFPA 1982 become available, emergency responders continue to maintain and use existing PASS. Users are cautioned, however, that both the existing as well as the new PASS (when available) should always be considered a last resort call for help for emergency responder personnel who are unable to otherwise notify others that they are in distress. Fire fighters and other emergency responders should continue to activate and wear PASS whenever in hazardous areas of any incident, but should also be aware of the possibility that hostile conditions may adversely affect the operation of PASS. Incident command should continue to apply all personnel accountability measures at all incidents to assure the safe entrance and exit of personnel from hazardous areas. Direct supervision of operating companies or teams should provide for the safe operating locations of personnel and ensure that members do not “freelance” on the incident scene.

NFPA has been a worldwide leader in providing fire, electrical, building, and life safety to the public since 1896. The mission of the international nonprofit organization is to reduce the worldwide burden of fire and other hazards on the quality of life by providing. and advocating consensus codes and standards, research, training and education.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good addition bunkers. You do listen. I knew you had "the look."

There is another article that I have to check to see if I got posted about the CDC's firefighter fatality group and how the leader of it wouldn't allow the investigations to take place as they should have and often up to 3 months after the fact.