Vehicle Positioning at Scenes

[nycemt728 49]

I know this is probably a popular topic, but it keeps coming up and there doesnt seem to be agreed upon answer that I can come across. When operating at the scene of an MVA, where should arriving EMS units park their ambulance? Assume that you are the first onscene. I have been told and recall from several CEVO classes that ambulances should be parked behind the involved cars (the new teaching is at an angle if I recall) to act as a buffer for those idiots who choose not to slow down. I have also been told not to park in the rear in order to protect yourself and the pt when loading. I have also been told never to park in the rear for the sole reason of " Let FDNY park in the rear, we park in the front cause we dont have the $$ like they do to replace our ambulance if its gets hit" Thoughts, comments? What protocols does everyone follow, what do people feel works best in the field? Stay safe!

[John Meeker Jr 0]

Your ambulance is not a disposable peice of equipment at this scene and should be pulled past the scene into to a safe spot just past the reckage. Have police or the next arriving unit act as buffer to protect the accident scene. You will need to work the scene accordingly and not allow rescuers into on coming traffic until protection is in place.

I would rather have a car crash into the accident scene rather then take out the only responding unit and possible its manpower.

[Guest]

We run an Engine on all car accidents with the Ambulance. The primary job of that Engine is to first make sure the crews are protected on the scene. The ambulance will pull past or at the very least position itself in front of the engine and that way the engne acts as the buffer. I would hate to see a car hit anything at all while working a scene but if it has to hit something better a larger piece of equipment then an individual trying to work at the scene.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Your ambulance is not a disposable peice of equipment at this scene and should be pulled past the scene into to a safe spot just past the reckage. Have police or the next arriving unit act as buffer to protect the accident scene. You will need to work the scene accordingly and not allow rescuers into on coming traffic until protection is in place.

I would rather have a car crash into the accident scene rather then take out the only responding unit and possible its manpower.

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Your statement is pretty much in conflict with everything being taught about responder safety. Any vehicle is a better buffer than none. My ambulances are much more disposable than the crews in them and if they are the only thing to act as a buffer then throw them away! A firetruck is certainly batter for the sheer mass that it presents minimizes the chance that it will be pushed into the original accident. Cop cars are not adequate buffers on roads with posted speed limits over a school zone (15 mph) as they get pushed around very easily.

[Guest partyrock]

You're damned if you damned if you don't here. if you are first on sceen, then in my book, pull your ambulance past the scene. When removing your equipment and then loading your patient you are completely exposed to on comming traffic if you park behind the accident. Nothing sucks more than being the only unit on a higway but at least if the patients car is hit first I have a small chance. If it hits me first I'm done. If anyone else is on sceen the absolutely pull past the scene. Ambulances don't provide a particularly effective buffer. While they are heavier than a cruiser, an ambulance will not stop a car at highway speed.

[20y2 43]

Your ambulance is not a disposable peice of equipment at this scene and should be pulled past the scene into to a safe spot just past the reckage. Have police or the next arriving unit act as buffer to protect the accident scene. You will need to work the scene accordingly and not allow rescuers into on coming traffic until protection is in place.

I would rather have a car crash into the accident scene rather then take out the only responding unit and possible its manpower.

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IF you are the first on scene your ambulance sure as heck IS a better buffer than the back of an already wrecked car. It can also be easily moved by anyone responding later to a safer location.

[Guest partyrock]

I'm not worried about protecting the ambulance. I'll send dozen vehicles to the grave to save my a**. I'm worried about getting my equipment out and then my patient in. I'm not doing that full exposed to traffic.

Edited February 5, 2007 by partyrock

[ajsbear 11]

I'm not worried about protecting the ambulance.  I'll send  dozen vehicles to the grave to save my a**.  I'm worried about getting my equipment out and then my patient in.  I'm not doing that full exposed to traffic.

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How often are you O/S before FD or PD show up? Just reciently I stopped at night for an MVA and before I got out of my vehicle a third car plowed into the first 2. I'm sure glad I'm not as fast as I used to be. You get O/S and grab your gear and go to work. If that one time you're there first by the time you have packaged the patient there will be FD or PD to block your rig.

[Guest partyrock]

Usually PD and EMS are on scene withing a minute or two of each other. There is no regularity as to fire being assigned unless it comes across as a serious MVA. However there are many occasions where PD is jammed up with calls, fire is not assigned, and all you get is an ambulance. You can put in a call for unsafe conditions but you're still looking at waiting and all you'll get is either a boss, another bus, or a cruiser.

[Guest]

In my opinion a wrecked up ambulance is better than a dead crew any day. Park the ambulance behind the scene. If the accident is bad enough that pt's have to be transported i would think that there would be more than one emergency vehicle on scene. When firefighters are extricating a pt. on a busy highway, they run the same risk as ems personell loading a pt. Im not worried about equipment here, its all about the saftey of the emergency personell on scene. Equipment can be replaced, lives cannot.

Edited February 5, 2007 by SSFD168

[antiquefirelt 994]

We ALWAYS get an engine to close traffic if our personnel are in the roadway at all. It is an automatic dispatch of the engine with EMS to the accident. Only if the EMS crew determines there is no road hazard will the engine be cancelled. Our EMS unit almost always arrives first and as the Engine is right behind (90%) the pull past and let the engine block the scene from the incoming direct while the ambulance front blocks teh other side. If the engine is delayed or in another town we cover the unit blocks the incoming direction by stopping short but is then blocked by an engine to ensure safety when loading the paitient. When we extended our EMS coverage into other towns we've demanded that they end an engine to every wreck or its a deal breaker. This is for the safety of our crew and the victims. Look at the number of responders stuck or 3+ car pile-ups which are usually ongoing events not simultaneous accidents.

[LCFD968 10]

I would prefer to park the rig behind the vehicle involved in the piaa to establish a safer working zone UNLESS another rig on location has done so.

Protect yourselves at all cost even it cost you an ambulance..

Edited February 5, 2007 by LCFD968

[capt2102 64]

This is a no brainer. He said the ambulance is the 1st. unit O/S. Park to the rear of the scene with the passenger side at an angle toward the scene. You can gain access to the rig for most gear via the side door. Leave the stretcher in the rig until you get back-up to your rear exposure. You should have some flares and road hazard triangles in the rig... use them. Make the scene as safe as you can. If this is a highway you need 200' safe zone. A car at 60 mph is going 88 feet per second, do the math.

Why would anyone pull past the scene if they are on scene 1st? Partyrock, while an ambulance may not stop the car at highway speed that 5,000# rig with warning lights is alot better at it than a human body.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

There is no right or wrong way, depend on the MVA. Depends what is safer for each circumstance. Personally I feel to have the ambulance IFO the accident away from oncoming traffic. When packaging the patient and putting them into the ambulance you are not exposed to oncoming traffic as you would be if the ambulance itself is the buffer. When you put the patient in the rear you are exposed to traffic.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Unfortunately this is one where common sense prevails and we all know how that often goes.

If you are first on scene you need to protect yourself with your vehicle. Even if you are second and say a police unit is on scene you again need to position to protect yourself and the scene if you can't get in between the PD unit and the vehicles. This is just like many other things, how you position yourself depends on what the conditions are around you. I'm not one for parking my vehicle like 2102 states. His way isn't by any means wrong, I take numerous things into account. If someone strikes the vehicle it will want to go in the direction of the front end. Depending on what lane I'm in will dictate which direction my front end points. If there is no divider and oncoming traffic is still moving I will not position the vehicle so it could possibly be displaced into on coming traffic. Head on collisions just as in driving must be avoided at all cost. I also take up and additional half of lane to block the scene.

While vehicles are moving fast they will generally slow down somewhat being human nature loves carnage. More FD's need to carry road cones they are proving to work very well. Even ambulances can carry them and the new collapsable types are awesome being you can store them easily and reach them quickly as needed. Ambulances are fairly substantial.....put it in park, put on the emergency brake for more friction if it gets struck. Also more lighting is not always better...amber amber amber.

Maybe I should start another topic but an additional pet peeve of mine is being on scene of a medical and the ambulance isn't causing any traffic hazard and the lights are blaring away. Why not shut them off? Why bring undue attention to you and your patient? Why put that load on your alternator and run the high idle often? Shut them down!

[helicopper 1,050]

Unfortunately this is one where common sense prevails and we all know how that often goes. 

If you are first on scene you need to protect yourself with your vehicle.  Even if you are second and say a police unit is on scene you again need to position to protect yourself and the scene if you can't get in between the PD unit and the vehicles.  This is just like many other things, how you position yourself depends on what the conditions are around you.  I'm not one for parking my vehicle like 2102 states.  His way isn't by any means wrong, I take numerous things into account.  If someone strikes the vehicle it will want to go in the direction of the front end.  Depending on what lane I'm in will dictate which direction my front end points.  If there is no divider and oncoming traffic is still moving I will not position the vehicle so it could possibly be displaced into on coming traffic.  Head on collisions just as in driving must be avoided at all cost.  I also take up and additional half of lane to block the scene.

While vehicles are moving fast they will generally slow down somewhat being human nature loves carnage.  More FD's need to carry road cones they are proving to work very well.  Even ambulances can carry them and the new collapsable types are awesome being you can store them easily and reach them quickly as needed.  Ambulances are fairly substantial.....put it in park, put on the emergency brake for more friction if it gets struck.  Also more lighting is not always better...amber amber amber.

Maybe I should start another topic but an additional pet peeve of mine is being on scene of a medical and the ambulance isn't causing any traffic hazard and the lights are blaring away.  Why not shut them off?  Why bring undue attention to you and your patient?  Why put that load on your alternator and run the high idle often?  Shut them down!

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What he said! ALS is so right! If there's already a vehicle on scene for blocking I prefer the ambulance be IFO the accident - that leaves the blocking vehicle, wrecked vehicles and distance between me, the patient, and the ambulance.

[ajsbear 11]

Here's a simple question, Which is worth more, 3 or 4 members lives or a rig? Remember the life you save could be your own.

[antiquefirelt 994]

There is no right or wrong way, depend on the MVA.  Depends what is safer for each circumstance.  Personally I feel to have the ambulance IFO the accident away from oncoming traffic.  When packaging the patient and putting them into the ambulance you are not exposed to oncoming traffic as you would be if the ambulance itself is the buffer.  When you put the patient in the rear you are exposed to traffic.

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I think the key is to not be in the position that another unit will not be coming in to block you're bus. As I said we made a conscious decision that our crew was worth keeping around so we send an engine on every wreck. If they're not right behind the bus the ambulance blacks the scene and renders aid while using the ambulance as the buffer. Along comes the engine to block behind the bus to provide safety when loading. It's simple math, figure out what you'll need, get it on automatic dispatch cancel it enroute if you're all set. But why start out behind the 8 ball?

[Guest partyrock]

It's simple math, figure out what you'll need, get it on automatic dispatch cancel it enroute if you're all set. But why start out behind the 8 ball?

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Some times those units just aren't available. When that happens you make due the best you can.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Some times those units just aren't available.  When that happens you make due the best you can.

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Absolutely!!