Bringing Departments Up-To-Date?

[firecapt32 282]

We are getting interesting responses from the fire service in general about the training issue, so heres another question that you might want to dig into.

Should the State or County work with individual Fire Departments to bring them up to date(only if department wants there is home rule here in NY) and if so how and what about additional expenses.

[RichC 0]

This could be accomplished fairly easily by requiring that after FF1 completion the FF will be required to take additional training each year therafter.

This way as time goes on hours of training for all FF's will add up each year. Basically you would be required each year to allot some time for your continuing training.

[exmrvfc 0]

Another overlooked spot but also linked to training. How many departments are not fully compliant with OSHA (PESH here in NY)? This is law and every department is mandated to comply with it.

[ONLOCATION 24]

Doesn't sound like a bad idea. Not every department obviously has the same issues or weak spots if you will. Having some formal training geared toward there specific issues or needs. In taking a recent class at Westchester it was a relatively small, but one of the best I have taken. It gave us the opportunity to be specific with some of are individual issues (which as we all now some really don't change from department to department), It made for a more interesting learning experience because its not straight out of a book, it was our home department issues. And the Instructor was excellent as well.

[Jybehofd 85]

Why not do it similuar to the EMT CME program. Have a set of core classes or skills you must do every 3 years or so.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm not interpreting what firecapt is asking the same as many of you. You keep mentioning individual training...he is asking input about fire departments.

You can have great employees, but if the corporation sucks and is broke. The business is broke.

Great idea.

We have NIMS. How about having regional staff that inspects fire departments like EMS agencies get inspected. Checking on individual records, physicals, fit testing. Apparatus files, in house training records and content and so on.

Have this come up on the floor of the state legislature and watch the jockeying and crying towels begin.

[mikerabbit 2]

Could the NFPA start an inpections or auditing division similiar to how the NYS DOH performs inspections and QA?QI at a regional level?

It could even be a for profit service. In the recreation world amusment parks and pool facilities contract with private companies that provide suprise audits that include watching lifeguards on duty, testing thr guards and inspecting the facility, equipment , certifications, etc.

Edited January 18, 2007 by mikerabbit

[Guest partyrock]

I think this may be the definition of pipe dream. It would have to be a state based initiative. There's too much variation in standards nationwide and NFPA (while increasingly becoming the legal standard) doesn't have any teeth. It is still just a recomendation.

This is a tough sell because there is no "need" for this type of oversight. What organization is going to voluntarily submit to more scrutiny without some type of negative incident or monetary reward.

You then have to fund this agency. With spitzer in office, I'm sure you would find a welcome audiance for this idea, but you aren't going to get a penny out of him or the state legislature to make an issue where there was no issue before.

Maybe one of us here could bite the bullet, imbezzle a few hundred thou and blow it all in Tailand.

[Monty 35]

I'm not interpreting what firecapt is asking the same as many of you.  You keep mentioning individual training...he is asking input about fire departments.

You can have great employees, but if the corporation sucks and is broke.  The business is broke.

Great idea. 

We have NIMS.  How about having regional staff that inspects fire departments like EMS agencies get inspected.  Checking on individual records, physicals, fit testing.  Apparatus files, in house training records and content and so on.

Have this come up on the floor of the state legislature and watch the jockeying and crying towels begin.

←

Great idea and way to bring everyonme in to the 21st century. Don't know if something could be done on the County level. A compact for mutual aid, County resources, County funding etc. Maybe even at the state level with OFPC. Maybe there should be a ranking, or league tables.

Could the NFPA start an inpections or auditing division similiar to how the NYS DOH performs inspections and QA?QI at a regional level?

It could even be a for profit service. In the recreation world amusment parks and pool facilities contract with private companies that provide suprise audits that include watching lifeguards on duty, testing thr guards and inspecting the facility, equipment , certifications, etc.

As mentioned elsewhere, the scale of doing something nationally is a real challenge, but maybe ISO could update their rating process, or do it more frequently or something .... in theory reduced premiums (from reduced losses) would cover the cost and be an incentive.

[Guest]

I think it was in the movie "Backdraft" there was a sign on the inside of a fire station that read something like "125 years of tradition unimpeeded by progress." I get a laugh out of that everytime I hear someone trying to prevent change.

It doesn't have to be at the state level to be effective. We are members of a association that is made up of the officers of 9 volunteer departments in our county. We schedule joint training and develope some standards that are adopted across the board...like RIT/Fast response/training/equipment standards. This standard was later adopted county wide.

Additionally, we have a county chief's association where all chiefs sit at the same table and have equal vote on issues at the county level. There are 11 career/combination departments.

Finally, we have a county mutual aid coordinator with 4 assistant coordinators. The county was set up in task forces...Basically 2 & 1 with a chief for each T/F. On large incidents, they fall under the logistics branch and get everything from engines to Slyders. It works well.

We're nothing special, but we found something that works. The biggest road block to navigate in the Northeast is the mine/yours/mine turf garbage. Once people see beyond the four walls of their own station, it is amazing what happens.

[AFS1970 504]

The best way to start something like this would be to look at it from a positive point of view. It is not about finding out what is wrong, it is about finding out what is good. Basically this could take the form of an accredidation program. A voluntary standard is set, and because of the pride/honor/joy of being an accredited agency, departments actually want to be inspected. This has been going on in the Law Enforcement world for quite a while now. Some of the accredited agencies are quite small in size and focus, others are large in major metropolitan areas. If a reasonable standard is set this could work.

The biggest thing to me would be that whatever standard is finally agreed upon has to be up to date. ISO is very much behind the times in terms of equipment requirements. It also would have to be a single standard, not split like NFPA 1710 & 1720, so the wording of the standard would have to be something reachable by everyone, but still meaningful from a safety standpoint.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

There's too much variation in standards nationwide and NFPA (while increasingly becoming the legal standard) doesn't have any teeth. It is still just a recomendation.

Party, great post, I just disagree with your assessment of the NFPA in a way.

There are parts of NFPA that list "recommendations" however, they do have teeth as established by law precedence in numerous states including NY. They are not recomendations...they are standards. The nationally excepted standard of the fire service. The problem is the fire service is like the FAA...nothing changes until someone dies and with the NFPA which I see your point, cannot generally be used against an individual or department until something happens and that has to be in civil and/or criminal court. Which in my opinion is BS.

If they were recommendations you would have:

NFPA 1500 "Recommendation" on Firefighter Health and Safety. That's not so, we have the "STANDARD on firefighter health and safety."

Same as NFPA 1001: Standard for Firefighter Professional Qualifications. It doesn't say "recommendation for firefighter professional qualifications. And good thing or we'd still have 32 and 39 hour intial firefighter training curriculums around.

[Guest partyrock]

You're correct, ALS I wasn't clear enough. They are established standards, I was just getting at the lack of enforcement till after something happens.

[turk182 37]

I'm not interpreting what firecapt is asking the same as many of you.  You keep mentioning individual training...he is asking input about fire departments.

You can have great employees, but if the corporation sucks and is broke.  The business is broke.

Great idea. 

We have NIMS.  How about having regional staff that inspects fire departments like EMS agencies get inspected.  Checking on individual records, physicals, fit testing.  Apparatus files, in house training records and content and so on.

Have this come up on the floor of the state legislature and watch the jockeying and crying towels begin.

←

Isn't that sort of what I.S.O. ratings do/are. I understand they are designed for insurance company to rate a department but it is a rating none the less is it not ?

Question on the whole NFPA standards. What recourse do youthink there is when the standards are not met? Of course after the fact it allows for a great law suit I am wondering how to us it to try and get changes made before there is even a reason for a law suit.

[Guest partyrock]

Do it just like OSHA and PESH standards and violations. Failure to comply resluts in warning, fines, work stoppage, etc. If violations are found after an incident then no tonly do you get hit by OSHA/PESH, those violations become gounds for the civil suit. NFPA just needs to be given the recources and the mandate to enforce their standards. Write your congressman.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

I would be in favor of a sort of inspection or audit by the state or even a federeal level. I think some issues especially in the westchester career end could be minimum staffing per rig, outdated apparatus. I think that a MAJOR PROBLEM in westchester career depts, is that the chiefs do not want to relinquish ANY command to a higher power, when they all should. I think we need more of a command like a larger city, more battalion career chiefs, deputys, more suppurt services, a better coordinated mutual aide system, and 4 man engines and trucks in EVERY dept and EVERY rig. OK sorry rant over

[firecapt32 282]

would a local F.D. reimburse the County or the State for a Fire Instructor to work with in that Department to get them up to date withi firefighter 1?

[PFD165 1]

Here is an interesting take on NFPA:

Has anyone read the article in the NY Post about the amputee that is suing the City of Patterson NJ for removing him from their hiring list?

Seems the fellow has been an amputee since the age of 5, but has excelled since in both HS football and baseball. He took the written test and ranked 103 out of 600 and then took the physical test and passed. Paterson FD then sent him for a medical exam and that is where he was denied based on the "criteria" of the National Fire Protection Association and New Jersey State Fireman's Association.

Here is the kicker

The amputees lawyer said " by their own criteria Isaac not only passes he excels" and that the NFPA guidelines are merely advisory.....

Here is a dept trying to adhere and they are being sued for doing so!

[Guest partyrock]

would a local F.D. reimburse the County or the State for a Fire Instructor to work with in that Department to get them up to date withi firefighter 1?

←

That would be a great idea. However, i don't see any board of fire comishioners bucking up for something available at the trainning center.

[PFD165 1]

Maybe with the Fire Academy Annex closed at Camp Smith and some of these classes becoming more and more difficult to get the people into that need the class, more departments will see the benefit of paying for their department to have a class or even better maybe a couple neighboring departments will get together and split the cost so that they can cover both departments.

But I agree, for the near future I don't see anyone offering cash for something their members can get at the training center.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The best way to start something like this would be to look at it from a positive point of view. It is not about finding out what is wrong, it is about finding out what is good.

BFD, I get your point, and I agree in most ways. However there are some things and the fire service is great for it, that we can't look through rose colored glasses at.

I think we need more of a command like a larger city, more battalion career chiefs, deputys, more suppurt services, a better coordinated mutual aide system, and 4 man engines and trucks in EVERY dept and EVERY rig.

I'll agree with the staffing at the end. Throwing more personnel with titles in the mix isn't the problem. Its often the attitudes of those there. We don't need more command like larger cities...unless your talking about larger cities down and south and out west. The problem here isn't needing "more" command like them, how about getting command. And I can attest from coming from there, the "smaller" areas down south and out west...use command and properly. The "large" in front of it has nothing to do with it. NIMS is a great guideline to build from. We just need to make it happen.

Maybe with the Fire Academy Annex closed at Camp Smith and some of these classes becoming more and more difficult to get the people into that need the class,

What problem? Except again, those to be can't see that rome isn't built in a day. Its not what you see fit as a timeframe. Every department has member that need to be trained, but everyone has their own so called priorities. Yet again it will be said, Westchester County leads NY State in the number of FF 1 courses given each year. Just because some think they should join today and be able to get training tomorrow, that isn't the case. If departments had comprehensive training programs we would see stronger persons getting into courses. We are not. As I've stated in the past, there are areas where it can take nearly a year to get a FF 1 class...I waited nearly that long myself in Virginia. However, my department has progressive training program that I learned much before I even got there, within the scope of the law.

even better maybe a couple neighboring departments will get together and split the cost so that they can cover both departments.

But I agree, for the near future I don't see anyone offering cash for something their members can get at the training center.

Split the cost? Offering cash for something their member can get at the training center? You just said its getting difficult to get in. How about getting real and helping yourself out. Particulary if you are a combination department and have a MTO. Guess what.....they can deliver courses inter departmentally. But I know.."funding." As I've said before..pick a side in an argument and stay there. Everyone wants wants wants...cry cry cry....foul foul foul...

Well ummm you can do XYZ and solve your problems and you won't have to be so concerned about it.

"ho hum...ahhhh, that's not possible....we can't....ummm"

Any other excuses? We all know what they say about excuses.

[FIRECHIEF63 55]

The problem in fire departments in NYS do not have to comply with anythign except what that individual department wants too.

NYS is a state that relies solely on the AHJ (Authority Having Juristiction), another the home department deciding everything. For this reason we nothing but difference in every department across the state, or at least here in our county.

So, now you also want to bring the departments up to date. I laugh at this, although I am very seriously in agreement with needing to bring depart. up to date.