Is Firefighter I Enough?

[Bunkers 0]

What do you guys, and girls, think about FFI and it being the only required class for becoming a structural fire fighter? Don't you think that that is farely minimal? I would venture to say that 50% of every class leaves there with a lot less than what they learned or shouldve learned. This is to no way bash the instructor's but I think that more could be done.

If you were a Chief, wouldn't you want your fire fighters to have alot more training that just FFI?

[HFD201 0]

My department requires both FF1 and Survival as minimums for interior firefighter status. This is only the beginning as more classes n training are highly recommended

[wmurpht 1]

How much more training are you going to require? There is only so much time one can dedicate to these activities. Society is going to have to start paying volunteers for their time. More and more the fire service is asking people to do more with less time and on a volunteer basis, it is almost like having a second job. The amount of time required to fulfill basic training these days has deifitnitely had an effect on member recruitment and retention.

[efd184 59]

FFI is for entry level firefighters giving you the BASIC knowledge you need. If you feel that you need more training take FFII and continue to learn as much as you can. It will only make you a better firefighter!

[robert benz 344]

What do you guys, and girls, think about FFI and it being the only required class for becoming a structural fire fighter? Don't you think that that is farely minimal? I would venture to say that 50% of every class leaves there with a lot less than what they learned or shouldve learned. This is to no way bash the instructor's but I think that more could be done.

If you were a Chief, wouldn't you want your fire fighters to have alot more training that just FFI?

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you are 100% correct, Vol chiefs assos. put a stop to xtra hours in FF-1 In NY saying it was excessive and that they would lose members because of the length of the course. A career academy lasts at least 12 weeks, which is 480 hours as opposed to 78 for a FF-1. Many states have raised the min hours of a FF-1 course, as they understand there isnt enough time the way it is layed out right now.

This is not to start a career vs vol issue.

[efd184 59]

How much more training are you going to require?  There is only so much time one can dedicate to these activities.  Society is going to have to start paying volunteers for their time.  More and more the fire service is asking people to do more with less time and on a volunteer basis, it is almost like having a second job.  The amount of time required to fulfill basic training these days has deifitnitely had an effect on member recruitment and retention.

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how much training are you going to require? what kind of question is that? As a firefighter wouldnt you want to be trained the best that you can be? This is a dangerous job and being trained well will help you when things get bad.

[HFD750 6]

We urge our members to take as many classes as they can,plus they have to attend all drills that we have. Yes FFI is the entry level for basic knowledge But I feel by no means is it enough. There are many classes out there that should be takin and some should be takin yearly,Firefighter survival,FAST,Haz-mat ops,AVET,EVOC. just to name a few. To answer your question BUNKERS your right on point,If I were chief I would want my firefighters to have all the training they can get and then get more... Oh yeah I am a chief

[Guest]

In my opinion you can never train enough. A well trained firefighter is a good firefighter.

[wmurpht 1]

how much training are you going to require? what kind of question is that? As a firefighter wouldnt you want to be trained the best that you can be? This is a dangerous job and being trained well will help you when things get bad.

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Continuing training is great, but there is alot being asked of people to do, especially for a volunteer organization. There is a lack of balance regarding what a volunteer should have in terms of training and what people can realitiscally give with jobs, family, other commitiments, etc.

Should volunteers take 12 weeks of training like paid guys? Not in my opinion, at tleast all at once. They should have the ability to get all the training that paid guys get, but at a pace and under requirments that don't suck every minute of free time from an increasingly busy world.

[efd184 59]

my freind if your not commited to being a firefighter then maybe you should rethink what you are doing before someone gets hurt!

[hudson144 150]

hopefully the FFI program would be changed to include the much needed survival training,do you make the FFI class longer? maybe they can cut the time down for hazmat and weapons of mass destruction and replace it with survival which certainly in my opinion is a priority! and to reply to wmurph- the fires aren't any hotter in mt vernon than in tarrytown so if you want to cut corners for training because you volunteer in your community you really need to step back and re-think what you are saying!!! be safe.

Edited January 16, 2007 by hudson144

[exmrvfc 0]

This is a leadership issue more than anything. We explain to prospective members what we EXPECT of them. FF1 is the first course they will take followed by FF Survival HAzMat Ops, FF2, AVET, Truck Co Ops etc, when they are available. Obviously, they will not be taken back to back because of course availability and personal issues. The expectation has to be there from the top down that this training is important to their safety and the other firefighters. This process has worked well for several years and members are taking the classes.

[RichC 0]

I think folding FF survival into FF1 is a great idea that Hudson mentions. I think the County offers that combination from time to time. As a vol FF you do have a lot to balance but I believe all should set aside some time each year to continue their training and take classes offerred at the training center. I have enjoyed every class I have taken there as well as Camp Smith. I have never had bad instructor at either spot.

[wmurpht 1]

my freind if your not commited to being a firefighter then maybe you should rethink what you are doing before someone gets hurt!

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I train plenty at the County, with lots of records to prove, and also in my company. Don't question my dedication. I am just stating there are already strains on peoples time and requiring more and more from volunteers is going to cause it eventually fade into extinction. I come from a very training intensive career, so I know the importance of it, but it is also something I am paid to do.

As for FF1 I think it needs to stress basics, hose ops, searching, venting, etc in a very hands on manner. There is alot of training out there that a regular guy who is gonna maybe see a few house fires here and there in Hudson river villages that probably won't need all the specialized stuff that is out there.

Keep training yourself and stop worrying about everyone else's business. That seems to be a big issue on this board.

[bigfitz2004 19]

I finish my Firefighter I class which start in September and ended in November and I?m still waiting for Firefighter survival already for 4 months has past since my Firefighter I. I believe that the county should have classes like Firefighter survival like once a month. I think waiting 4 months is too long to wait.

[robert benz 344]

I train plenty at the County, with lots of records to prove, and also in my company.  Don't question my dedication.  I am just stating there are already strains on peoples time and requiring more and more from volunteers is going to cause it eventually fade into extinction.  I come from a very training intensive career, so I know the importance of it, but it is also something I am paid to do. 

As for FF1 I think it needs to stress basics, hose ops, searching, venting, etc in a very hands on manner.  There is alot of training out there that a regular guy who is gonna maybe see a few house fires here and there in Hudson river villages that probably won't need all the specialized stuff that is out there.

Keep training yourself and stop worrying about everyone else's business.  That seems to be a big issue on this board.

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this thread is about the training for ff-1, the instructors have no control over the content, it is set by the state. As for specialized training in FF-1 what is it?

As for a guy who is only going to see a couple of fires, how many does it take to injure or kill you?

As an officer, you should be the one stressing training, not saying there is too much. I do agree with you that time is very limited and precious, but if you cant do it you should step down until you can. That goes for any position / rank.

you put your comments out there for the rest of us to read, you made it our business when you posted.

[PFD165 1]

Ok, I have to play Devil's advocate, just to get the thoughts flowing and NO bashing, this is meant to get people thinking about their actions and their department guidelines and to learn them if they don't know them:

Question? How many departments allow their "newly trained" FF1 Probie into a working fire?

Do departments require their probie to stay out of "working" jobs or are they allowed to follow a more "qualified"(aka senior, trained, experienced) firefighter in? Or are they allowed in on overhaul only?

Just a thought that perhaps FF1 is adequate for getting the feel of what to expect, but as you gain the basic experience you would want to take additional classes or would be required by your department rules to take more classes(i.e - aspirations to become an officer would require a great deal more and specific training before you are qualified, F.A.S. Team member, Rescue etc...).

And even if you take all the training you can, let's be honest it does not make you immediately the most qualified or better person. On paper it may appear that way, but how much of your training did you retain and did you take too much too fast and had no idea what the instructor was talking about because you had never experienced any situation that was discussed.

Just a few thoughts to stir some thoughts.

[HFD23 37]

I think Homer J. put it best well though out and written reply.

I totally agree 78 hour isn't sufficient. More detailed instruction on building construction, search and rescue, stretching of hose lines and probably some basic thermal imaging as well as survival should be included. The hour or so spent or cutting roofs or search's isn't sufficient. Trust me as some one who took the classes before attending the career academy it’s much different and you learn and cover so much more information and skills. the bottom line is were all going into the same burning buildings and in some cases together so why should they guy next to you have any less training. I know I would want they guy next me to be equal or have even more training.

"Question? How many departments allow their "newly trained" FF1 Probie into a working fire?"

The answer is some do... and they should be eased into things not thrown into an out of control fire. I have seen and heard from friends who’s departments roll a engine with all probies fresh out of FF1 or in some cases just to get a rig out 1 interior FF who is the chauffeur and the rest exterior FF's that is unacceptable what if you pull up to a job, the crew and engine is useless.

"Do departments require their probie to stay out of "working" jobs or are they allowed to follow a more "qualified"(aka senior, trained, experienced) firefighter in? Or are they allowed in on overhaul only?"

Over hawl only is not a bad intro as is a secondary search. and pairing up with a more senior member is a very good idea. new personal can learn a lot from their senior members and should try to follow them closely.. Also hopefully this member has experience and more then just FF1.

"And even if you take all the training you can, let's be honest it does not make you immediately the most qualified or better person. On paper it may appear that way, but how much of your training did you retain and did you take too much too fast and had no idea what the instructor was talking about because you had never experienced any situation that was discussed."

also true, but the bottom line is the more live burn time, the more instruction the more hands on practice the better you should be. Granted nothing is better then real life fire experience but the more and more training and drilling is the next best thing because after all you can schedule the real thing...

the main goal of all this isn't to make getting members harder its to keep more firefighters safer we can't continue to kill over 100 firefighters a year... training for both career and volunteer doesn’t end after FF1 or the Career academy it continues over your fire service career.

* note I also stated in a previous discussion on this topic that maybe some sort of continuing education program be established where you take FF1 and then survival and FF2 in some sort of spread out but yet scheduled time frame and require certain classes over a period of time to gain interior status. Similar to how the state gives their building code classes it’s 6 classes 3 days each but when you sign up for one you’re registered into the next 5 as well. Its 3 days 8 hours a day once a month.. So 18 days over a 6 month period totaling 144 hours... now maybe that could be edited some how for the fire service...

Edited January 16, 2007 by HFD23

[firecapt32 282]

OK OK here i come FF1 is not enough-- If you were at the Elmsford Seminar sat you would have herd Chief Goldfeder say

WE HAVE GOT TO GET OFF THIS VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT s*** YOU ARE A FIRE DEPARTMENT AND SHOULD DO WHAT FIRE DEPARTMENT DO

Elect the best not just "its your turn"

Train like your life depended on it cause know what it does!!

not to repete my self but firefighter one is not enough and the truth is that the Volunteer Service in New York State demanded that it be watered down.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I think FF I is enough for the basic / recruit firefighter training, but taking from EMS, continuing education in training such as taking a structural fire fighting class and at least two to three structural burn drills, just like going to an EMS CME, should be done.

FF I is the starting grounds or as I like to call it "POINT A" where a common knowledge of fire operations and text book suppression is learned. Now having that basic skill, a person can then learn "the tricks of the trade" so to speak where a new firefighter or a seasoned veteran, can learn new tactics and applications, the basic "If point A does not work, lets try B, C, D, ect."

When I was a vol officer, I never said, hey don;t take that, that would be just plain wrong. But I do believe, since I did graduate a double major in college, that the learning process needs to be expanded over a period of time and feel that after FFI that a person should no immediately go into FF II but should take more specific courses such as building construction, fire tactics, apparatus operators courses if they became drivers.

They way certain classes are tough or the instructors that teach them have to remember just like the students, the brains cannot be the "10 pounds of junk trying to fit it into a 5 pound bag" scenario. Even for the career guys and gals out their, do you think that a total of 12 weeks is enough for a basic fire fighter's class? While the hours are great for class room and drilling, the brain can only absorb so much too. Also what is the criteria for City of any town FD's firefighting staff, do they have to go through EMS training, Apparatus operations, ECT.? Same problem in the vol ranks.

FF I is good enough on all levels as a starting point but continuing education and also good old hands on experience (since every fire is not the same as the previous) is needed for proper training of any unit. More needs to be done between the FFI and FF II Class options.

[ex-commish 490]

What do you guys, and girls, think about FFI and it being the only required class for becoming a structural fire fighter? Don't you think that that is farely minimal? I would venture to say that 50% of every class leaves there with a lot less than what they learned or shouldve learned. This is to no way bash the instructor's but I think that more could be done.

If you were a Chief, wouldn't you want your fire fighters to have alot more training that just FFI?

←

Many years ago the state decided to come up with mandated training for firefighters ( creation of the 229 hour minimum). FASNY, an organization that represents volunteers fought and won ( if you want to call it a win) to exempt volunteers from the law. All you had to take was essentials and that wasn't mandated because volunteer depts operate under home rule so the only requirement is 15 hours of safety training and 8 hours each year of the same. ( Note I mentioned safety training). The thought was more training will drive volunteers away and eventually put us out. I heard that rhetoric in 1980 and still hear it today. Nonsense!!!

When FF1 was first proposed it was supposed to be in the relm of 150 hours which I believe is on board nationally. FF2 would bring you up to 200 hours. FASNY again fought and the end result was the 78 hour FF1 class which I will admit is better than essentials but not enough in my opinion.

My friends the time has come to put the word volunteer aside. We signed up to protect our communities and that has a price which is training to do the job we have volunteered for. Wether you fight 100 or 1 fires per year the risk is there and the only way to minimize the risk is training not only entry level but in-service.

This is my list:

FF1

FF2

Survival and FAST

HAZOPS

AVET

Truck OPS

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I hope I'm not too late that many stopped reading, but I have to follow up behind 3 of my fellow instructors.

Is Firefighter 1 enough to be an interior structural firefighter?

IMO...no. In NYS opinion...no, at least for a career firefighter.

More hands on? How much more could possibly be done with the curriculum as it is set? Many instructors go above and beyond to get more field time in, a lot more then many other counties whom don't have the instructor resources we have in Westchester. Its one thing to know how to do something, but times have changed, we need smart and strong firefighters. Brains and Braun. The decent firefighter knows how to do something, the great firefighter knows how and why it is being done. Keep in mind what Firefighter 1 is designed to do "to teach firefighters how to operate UNDER DIRECTION SUPERVISION." Perhaps that's what we are losing here. Then again, we have to question some of the "supervision" that is out there.

As far as getting into the entire how much more can they require of volunteers? Give me a break. No one held a gun to any of our heads, career or volunteer to join the fire service. If they are getting to be too much, by all means find another organization to join. I hear the Elks and Lions club do not have very many requirements and the Elks have nifty uniforms as well.

Go check how many other states FF 1's are more hours then NY's. They don't seem to have a problem. My original FF 1 in Virginia was 135 hours. This included haz mat awareness and CPR to meet the national standard. On top if it, you also had to recertify or move up in certification within the next 5 years. Do they have a problem...no. Do they cry its too long...no.

People will rise to the standard set before them. Stop selling safety and knowledge short with a two sided argument. You can't have those who want to cry equality vs. career firefighters and we're all on the same team in one breath. And then cry "well we're just volunteers" with the other. Pick a side and stay on it.

You want a real cause? How about having solid comprehensive training programs in departments that make sense and follow what is being taught in established curriculums. Not speculation and what people remember. It is the instructors job to give the foundation, additional training to form the walls and the roof. It is that of the department, chief officers, company and/or department training officers to put on the trim and finish the product. You can have a 1000 hour firefighter 1/2, 999. But if the department they are operating with doesn't have quality training, reinforcing good safe habits. Its all for naught.

I am one of the instructors as well whom adds the survival to my Firefighter 1 courses. Not once has any student complained about the additional 9 hours of content, which from what it looks like will increase when the new survival curriculum comes out. 3 of the skills from survival are already in the curriculum. Why not just finish it off? Once again, organizations that should be lobbying for us, argue about training hours, driver qualifications and tons of discussion about some poor cop with his @ss flapping in the breeze of traffic having a blue light on his car. Get real. Its your life. Career or volunteer fire will kill your @ss. Are you prepared? As my quote says "in combat you never rise to the occassion, you revert to your level of training." This isn't what you have on paper, its what you have trained on in the past 6 months to 1 year, which is how long it takes for your brain to start not using certain nuerons of what you established in learning.

PFD 165, great post and great points. Is all paper good? No. Is just fireground/department experience good...no. If I had my choice, I'll take the guy who just got the paper. Few bad habits and good background to start from and go. But unfortunately in some places, these are the ones that get eaten alive. You know my 2 rules...the more you lack in one area upstairs the more you talk and the louder you speak. And for some they have 3 brain cells, its takes at least 2 to breath...anything involving your hands takes a minimum of 2...so something in the end has to give.

[hudson144 150]

hey walter, i ate 2 chili dogs the other day and boy did they ''repete'' on me lol!

Edited January 17, 2007 by hudson144

[Remember585 815]

I have been a member since 1994 of my Department. When I joined, we only had to complete Essentials and our OSHA to be interior. That's it - a whole 39 hours of NYS training and 15 hours of In-house, which, in most cases, was covered in Essentials. So, in essence, we only had to do 39 hours of training and we were good to go. At 16 I knew that wasn't enough and still think that today, with the 78 hour program we, the volunteers, are cheating ourselves.

The 12-week academy at Westchester which is roughly 400+ hours now (I think) is a little more then what we need. I do not feel that it is imperative for volunteers to have all of the codes training to fight fires. We don't do inspections or code enforcement, that's not our job. Answering calls for service is, and we should be prepared for it.

With that said, we should be requiring more then 78 hours of class. The classes that HFD219 mentioned should be merged into one program. The backwards thinking of FASNY to cut the hours was absurd, and is part of the reason why I don't affiliate or participate in any of these organizations anymore. Cutting training requirements and fighting blue light laws is not what I want to pay dues for. Furthering our abilities, retaining and recruiting good MEMBERS (not names) should be the goals.

If people are worried about keeping people because of the "excessive" training requirements, then let those who don't want to do it leave - end of story. Keeping NAMES on your roster means dick when you need something done. It is your MEMBERS that do the training, the calls and whatever you need of them. I went thru this crap several times in the few years I was Captain - I dropped people from active membership for not coming around and training. They all took FF I and figured that was it. WRONG! If you do not enter into the volunteer fire service with an understanding that you must always be ready to further your knowledge and meet the growing demands of your community, Department and regulated standards set forth by OFPC, NFPA, OSHA, etc. then pack your s*** and quit. Too many people are focused on numbers - the numbers of members means nothing if only 10% are trained to do whatever is asked of them!!!

[HFD23 37]

The 12-week academy at Westchester which is roughly 400+ hours now (I think) is a little more then what we need.  I do not feel that it is imperative for volunteers to have all of the codes training to fight fires.  We don't do inspections or code enforcement, that's not our job.  Answering calls for service is, and we should be prepared for it.

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just a side note codes in the academy is only 2 days so about 14-16 hours and counts for nothing to be a code enforcement official its 6 class 3 days each 8 hours a day.. Also there is code compliance tech which is what is required to do fire inspections or inspections of existing structures which is 3 classes 3 days each 8 hours a day

The academy codes is basic and only counts for the state requirement of 229 hours even though most academies are over 400 hours of training.

[Remember585 815]

just a side note codes in the academy is only 2 days so about 14-16 hours and counts for nothing to be a code enforcement official its 6 class 3 days each 8 hours a day.. Also there is code compliance tech which is what is required to do fire inspections or inspections of existing structures which is 3 classes 3 days each 8 hours a day

The academy codes is basic and only counts for the state requirement of 229 hours even though most academies are over 400 hours of training.

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In any case, that part of the training isn't needed on our level, but the majority of it is - and should be. All this worrying about keeping people is dumb, if someone isn't up to snuff and capable of doing what is asked of them then they aren't helping the cause.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

There you go again thinking progressively 585. You gotta be careful with that, you may get lynched in some areas. Before you know we'll have bags over our heads getting shoved in the back of a volkswagon van.

Do I think codes needs to be a requirement, no. Unless you are a Chief Officer, I feel that to be a Chief you should meet a certain criteria and Code Compliance Technician should be one of them.

Funny enough Hudson I had 2 hot dogs for lunch yesterday and they went and stayed down. lol. No 're pete' lol on my end. I got to save a prevacid for another day.

[AFS1970 504]

It seems like a lot of this discussion is NY State specific, so being from CT my perspective may be a little off. But as for the original question, is FF1 enough? I don’t think there can ever be such a thing as enough training. Too much changes in life (especially in the fire service) to ever stop learning. Is FF1 enough to give you the basic skills to perform on most fire grounds? I think so, but there is a reason that the same NFPA 1001 standard includes FF2, because you need them both to complete the training cycle. In CT our FF1 is around 120 hours, and FF2 is the same length, so I guess 240 is not bad compared to some classes.

Our State Fire Academy, Probie School which is used by many cities as their career fire academy, is 12 weeks long and about to go up to 14 weeks long. So it is moving from 480 to 560 hours. Would I like to see everyone trained to the same level, with the same number of hours, sure. But remember that it is easy to require an employee that must be there for 40 (or more) hours a week to do something that long. Most classes I have taken have been held 1 or 2 nights a week with some weekend days. If we assume 2 nights and 1 day each week, for 16 hours per week, we have 35 weeks or approximately 8 months to complete the same hours of training.

This is why classes in the Volunteer Fire Departments are split up into more manageable blocks of time. I would love to see Firefighter Safety & Survival (16 Hours), Rapid Intervention Team (16 Hours), Structural Firefighting (16 Hours of additional practical work), and Flashover Survival (8 Hours) become part of FF1 or FF2, but some of this also depends on training site cost, location and availability. The best Instructors I have had, or worked with, do their best to get brief introductions of these topics included within their FF1 & FF2 classes, but the more information that is not test related you include, you run the risk of people failing because they remember the wrong part of the class. It is a catch 22 for certain.

[firecapt32 282]

hudson you must have more to say about this other then i cant spell-

The state set the standard on which we teach ff1 --it has to be adapable to all parts of New York. In some places its the only training that firefighters get. so lets concider ourselves lucky here, that the County offers a lot more-- like all good things sometimes you have to wait.

[ltjay157 10]

Personally, I feel FFI is not enough alone to become interior certified. If i knew back in the day what I know now, I'd push for more training. I got my FFI back in 1996 after being a junior for 4 years, i felt I knew my s***. I went to my first fire as an "interior ff" in Oct and it was nothing like I expected. It was hoter and I seemed to lose my way because of all the furniture in the house disoriented me (in training, we had only 1 or 2 pieces of furniture in a room). It seemed like I was moving forever in there. I kept pushing the line in and next thing you know, i was swimming in a waterbed that had melted. After the fire was out & I got to see the layout of the house, I was shocked to see that I had only gone in like 25ft into the house. It was your typica raised ranch and in the bedroom that was on fire, there was a 6" step that led to the waterbed. I hadn't noticed it because I wasn't paying much attention (due to a combination of lack of training/experience). Since then, I've pushed for training on drill nights and not of cleaning the trucks/firehouse. I've since gone on the get my EMT, 2Q license, FFII, Pump Operator, etc.. I would love to get my Fire Instructor, Fire Officer & Ariel Operator certs. All the young 18 yr olds in my dept keep talking like they're 20 yr vets even though they haven't seen crap yet. they want to go for high angle rescue & other bs stuff we don't do. I've told them that they should go for firfighter safety & survival and flashover training first because it may save their a** one day. I've told them to master the basics before trying to become supermen. But what drives me absolutely crazy is the guys that only show up to the good calls. I feel they should not be allowed to respond because they don't go to drills or other training when we offer it. When it is brought upat officer meetings about the lack of training some members have, other officers defend them saying they're volunteer and can only come around when they have free time!!! I feel like I'm the only one that wants to make us better firefighters at times.