NIMS Or Proper Size Up?

[x635 4,066]

It's pretty fascinating to me how eagerly some deparments, and or people, have "adopted" NIMS, especially the part when they arrive on scene and transmit "2*** on scene, establishing Anywhere Place command".

What gets me about this is how some officers are doing this, and how this has/is spreading to a lot of different agencies.

HOWEVER, you hardly ever hear a proper and complete size-up by the first arriving officer. I feel priority-wise, that a proper size up should take front seat to "establishing command".

I understand NIMS, why it's imporant to do it at every incident, yada yada yada. But we need to remember our bread and butter- fighting the everyday fire- read "everyday". A proper size up lets incoming units know what they are in for, and pregame in their heads. It also lets other agencies know what they're neighbors are dealing with, and prepare to get the jump on a mutual aid request.

Anyone else have input as to this?

Edited January 5, 2007 by x635

[Remember585 815]

This is how I feel, and again this is just my opinion, the initial size-up should sound:

"Car 999 on location establishing Anyplace Command, I got a 1 1/2 story frame with nothing showing from the front, investigating."

Thoughts?

[firecapt32 282]

Couldnt have said it better my self Remember 585. Establishing command first then giving proper size up is the way to go. It takes 1/2 a second, it also gives local dispatch or 60 control the command structure.

maybe we should train our dispatchers to be more aggressive and ask more questions on the radio--who is in command? when a chief arrives they might ask- have you relieved eng111 officer of command?

We have to parctice on the small alarms so that it becomes automatic on the bigger alarms.

Edited January 5, 2007 by firecapt32

[Jason762 2]

This is how I feel, and again this is just my opinion, the initial size-up should sound:

"Car 999 on location establishing Anyplace Command, I got a 1 1/2 story frame with nothing showing from the front, investigating."

Thoughts?

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How about the occupancy of the building? A 1 1/2 story commercial building is going to require different tactics compared to a 1 1/2 story residential, right?

[Remember585 815]

How about the occupancy of the building?  A 1 1/2 story commercial building is going to require different tactics compared to a 1 1/2 story residential, right?

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Yep, but if you know your district that should be self-explanitory - no? Plus if your dispatch info is up-to-snuff, they would give you the occupancy name/type in your dispatch (you would hope). I was even thinking that adding a comment about a hydrant would be beneficial, but that too should be something incoming units should know.

[HCFRFF 0]

Any pernient info is good to give with your on scene report. If you got the plug then let the incoming units know.

How about this-

E999 on the scene with a 2 story wood frame nothing showing from the Alpha division. E999 got the hydrant in front Estblishing the Anywhere command......

My department has went to calling the sides of buildings divisions. It gets alittle confusing but everyone has gotten use to it

[Guest partyrock]

Its a start, but you're right. We do need to go further. The dispatchers asking for a sizeup would go a long way towards making it part of the routine. I know when I'm working on the EMS side, as soon as I'm dispatched I'm reminded to give a size up.

[firecapt32 282]

let me see somewhere i read "building sides are letters-- floors are numbered" seems to make sense to me.

[EJS1810 7]

maybe we should train  our dispatchers to be more aggressive and ask more questions on the radio--who is in command?  when a chief arrives they might ask- have you relieved eng111 officer of command?

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The whole idea of NIMS is that it dosent matter who is in command, only that a command structure has been established. As a Dispatcher I communicate with "Command". Here in Putnam we have been using "IC-XX" where XX is your department number. If there were 2 incidents in the same departments area, we add the street name, example "IC-18 Dixon Rd"

[helicopper 1,050]

The whole idea of NIMS is that it dosent matter who is in command, only that a command structure has been established.  As a Dispatcher I communicate with "Command".  Here in Putnam we have been using "IC-XX" where XX is your department number.  If there were 2 incidents in the same departments area, we add the street name, example "IC-18 Dixon Rd"

←

Not exactly true - the most qualified person should be in command and the organizational structure should reflect the needs of the incident.

Broadcasting a size-up on the radio is great and should be incorporated into the initiail/early info to be broadcast from the scene but establishing command is just as important. I think we've all arrived at incidents where there were multiple resources arriving, many tasks to be performed and no clear guidance or direction from a command element. So what happens - we start doing what we think needs to be done first and not necessarily what the boss wants.

Let's not get too hung up on "NIMS" - it is really just the formalization of what we've all been trying to do, especially in the fire service, for years.

Training dispatchers to solicit important information is a great way of reminding people to broadcast info! Helps make the argument for centralized dispatch with properly trained personnel giving you good info and asking the right questions on both the radio and phone.

Is the street cop covering the desk the best dispatcher for a working fire job?

- Perhaps that's a thought for another thread!

[IzzyEng4 427]

Before any command structure is set up, the first arriving fire unit, regardless if it is a truck, engine, rescue, squad, chief or even a FD staffed Ambulance, you need to know what the heck you area facing. For example I'll use a scenario when I was captain of my company.

"Engine 4 to FireComm............... On Scene, we have a 2 1/2 story wood frame residence, light smoke coming from the 1st floor front door, A-Side. Engine 4 is taking the hydrant at the corner of Wakelee and Clarkson. 401 (Co. 4 Captain ID) is now Wakelee Ave command , further update to follow."

NIMS is great when used properly but Size up is more important first from incoming units knowing what is going on then with the size up, the reporting party then sets up command in the same statement, now everyone knows who, what, when where and why.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Which came first...the chicken or the egg?

Who gives a fu(K right!?!

Two things are needed from the first arriving unit....a size up and someone to be in command. Doesn't matter which is broadcast first it is accomplishing the same thing.

"Engine 6 on scene...2 1/2 story wood frame...nothing showing at this time from sides A,B,D. Firefighter Smith ESTABLISHING, Main St. Command."

Engine 6 on scene, with Firefighter Smith ESTABLISHING Main St. Command, I've got a 2 1/2 Story Wood frame with nothing showing."

All the same thing.

[firemoose827 324]

Boy, I wish some of you could live in MY neck of the woods for a while!

NIMS is a system set up to get rid of the confusion, and the cluster. Like in a previous thread with the Chief calling shots from 3 miles out without even knowing what the scene looks like? NIMS stops that. It sets up a CLEAR and SIMPLE chain of command AND reminds our officers to use SIZE-UP.

I have heard TOO many calls around me in my neighboring depts where I was waiting for an officer to arrive on scene. When they got there all I heard was "2011 on scene"............????????

With every change of command there should be a size-up report also,

"2011 relieving 2014 from command, still have heavy fire on the 2nd floor b exposure, eng 2 is on the hydrant at the corner of &*^% and ^&%$."

I have heard chiefs argue the point saying, "Yah but than everyone in scanner land will know what is happening." WHO GIVES A %#@! Its more important to let your crews know whats going on so they can prepare.

Sorry, just my opinions. Hey, happy new year everyone!!!!