Civilian Standpipe Systems: Obsolete?

[x635 4,066]

I was in Codes class today, and had another thought.

You know those standpipe systems that are designed for civilian use? The hose cabinet ones?

I'm wondering if anyone else feels these are obsolete in many types of occupancies? I mean, we educate the citizens to escape as quickly as possible, and call the FD.

Yet, these systems send the civilians into the fire to fight it, without SCBA or protective gear. And, they can also delay calling the fire department, as the civilian thinks they can handle it on their own, as the fire gets bigger and more out-of-control.

Many times, the hoses are broken or fittings are missing, which also can create it's own set of issues. I think a fire extinguisher and alarm system are a modern-day replacment for the civilan standpipe.

What do you think?

[DOC22 1]

I hope for a real quick obselessence! All new buildings are or certainly equipped with sprinkler systems, and the older ones as you said should be set up with alarms and fire extinguishers. You're right we should encourage occupants to get out and call the FD.

[OoO 24]

I'm not a fire fighter so I don't really know what I am talking about, but perhaps these could be useful if you are trapped and need to use the hose in order to clear your way to an exit?

[Firefighter57 0]

To me, the only reason they would stay is because they make occupants feel safer knowing there is somthing there. I can't even see how it was ever a good idea (although i dont know the history about these) to pose people this possible option of fighting any fire with these hoses.

[Guest]

I think they are more or less obsolete and being phased out at this point. My father does commercial construction in the city and has told me in the past about the strict requirements the city has for fire protection. All exposed structural steel has to be coated with flame retardant, all dropped ceiling also have flame retardant properties, and last but not least you've got your sprinklers. Lots of effort is put into the sprinkler systems and they are pretty sophisticated and throw out a lot of water. Those hoses were probably good methods of fire suppression before sprinkler systems became reliable.

[FFD941 20]

That is correct... However most sprinklers only put out 15 gallons a minute of water compared to the fire departments 100 or more.

The Class II standpipe system(the ones with hose attached) is not recommended at all for fire department use. The hose, most likely, has not be kept in good condition and because we are much more preventative and safety oriented the occupants need to get out of the building safely.

I know most of the commercial buildings in my district have removed the hoses just for this reason.

Edited January 5, 2007 by FFD941

[Guest partyrock]

luckily, in the one major fire I've worked with a civilian hose system the residents did the right thing and ran right past it. In many buildings the hoses have been replaced with an extinguisher.

[Guest]

I've seen them in older homes, connected to the well system. Some even have a small yard hydrant for FD. use. They have a large storage tank. one system had 12000. gallons.

[firecapt32 282]

I think a little education is going to emt bravos head!!!! codes is boring enough. were you dreaming in there?? just kidding good topic good answers. I can see we are all thinking in 2007 thats good.

[tbendick 27]

Ok here is a twist on this issue. I am not for Civilians using them, however I would like to see either a supply of hose in the building or at the outlets.

I have been at a few fires in which they did deploy the house line, and it does tend to get in the way. The problems tend to start once the line is shut down and now you have all this limp hose you are trying to work around and it gets caught up in the line very quick.

So why would I like to see the hose stay in the building some place. For events like 9/11 and N.O. Looking at N.O. you have fires breaking out in downtown areas with buildings that did have standpipe systems and good chance had gravity tanks. In a situation where you can't get rigs and supplies in or members are limited in equipment, they could come in handy for a "Defensive" operation.

[FFD941 20]

Good Idea, but I go back to the comment I made before. The hoses sit in the cabinet forever; sometimes never inspected or changed. So now at 2am when we show up for a fire and go to set up the line...we don't know what will happen. So in my eyes it is just easier to bring your own hose up. If this means placing another engine and ladder on a M/A assignment for the larger buildings then that is what may have to happen.

[Guest]

If any of you have read "On Fire" by Larry Brown, he tells a story about how his company was first in and for some reason they started by using a "hose in a box" and the line did in fact burst as soon as it was charged.

[tbendick 27]

Just to make myself clear.. You shoud never use the "House line" for fire attack. Just like everyone has said you can't trust this hose..

FDNY Sop's does allow a Truck or Rescue who is working remote from a Engine Comany, performing searchs to use the "House line" in order to "Save Lives".

Now back to what I was saying about why I would like to see them left in the building. This would not be used if you pull at a working fire... This would be something that could be used in the event of a disaster... It should also be limited to Defensive operations...

Also as far as the hose being very old.. I have seen some that we were able to cut off the outlet with a small knife without any problems because it was so weak.

But a change to the Building Codes could be used to solve some of the problems. Simple statment like "200' of 2 1/2 hose shall be kept on premise, this hose shall be replaced every 5 years."

[ja3kfd 34]

I have a question, isn't the standpipe,you are talking about the same one we are supposed to use and tie a engine into feed? When Iwas doing commercial work we installed the boxes with hoses in them , a check vave on the standpipe,with the fittings for FD to tie into. So if that is what we are talking about why do away with them?

As well maybe it is time for a state code update to have them inspected and changed every couple of years.

[tbendick 27]

ja3kfd,

Yes those are what we are talking about.

The setup you find is not for FD use in most places. In NYC for example they are installed per NFPA spec. So that means that a pressuer reducer is installed on the outlet, and the hose most times is not rated for much.

So for us in the City SOP's are to remove the pressuer reducer then hook up a inline guage and our hose.

So the debate is, if we are removing all the extra stuff and not using it, then why continue to keep in in the building codes..

[ja3kfd 34]

tbendick,

Thank you , The systems we installed where full street pressure, with no PRV only Dual Check Valves. AS well the Tie ins For FD use.

[dadbo46 50]

Good Idea, but I go back to the comment I made before. The hoses sit in the cabinet forever; sometimes never inspected or changed. So now at 2am when we show up for a fire and go to set up the line...we don't know what will happen. So in my eyes it is just easier to bring your own hose up. If this means placing another engine and ladder on a M/A assignment for the larger buildings then that is what may have to happen.

←

Never, EVER use house hose for anything other than washing your car. It's usually old, single jacketed and rarely, if ever, inspected. Use the hose on your engine that you know is inspected, pressure tested, is double jacketed and is in probably good shape.

Also, never, EVER use a ladder that you find at the scence of a call. That ladder is not NFPA certified or inspected in accordance with NFPA regs. Use ladders that you carry on your apparatus.

The ONLY exceptions to the above is to protect life.

[JetPhoto 626]

I have seen company's replace the hose with fire extinguishers.

I know that Sam's Club in Fishkill still has "hose racks" for firefighting use, personally they should only be used to wash the floor!

[xfirefighter484x 234]

While in theory a good idea, a first line defense to possibly knock down an incident before allowing it to progress into a larger one, it has inherent its drawbacks.

By having the means for a civilian to try and fight a fire themselves, it is putting those civilians at an increased risk to get themselves into a sticky situation.

While it seems easy enough to us (put the wet stuff on the red stuff), you must keep in mind that our gear and respirators allow us to nearly negate those minor conditions.

A simple 200-300 degree room to us in gear is still violent enough, and capable of producing enough smoke to incapacitate or kill civilians.

With a hose in hand, there is the possibility for civilians to feel more invincible then normal, and stay fighting a losing battle longer than they should.

In almost every single case recently, I have noticed all Class II standpipes to have their hoses removed, most likely due to, as was previously stated, them falling into disrepair, lack of maintenance/inspections. It is a progressive move, in my opinion.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Seth, as far as I knew these were or are being phased out. You will see obviously standpipe cabinets but not the hose. This is also along the line where we are seeing mostly ABC "all purpose" dry chem extinguishers in cabinets and not a combination of extinguisher classes.

The only fire any civilian should be messing with are incipient stage fires and these, in most reasonable cases can be handled with a fire extinguisher. Those standpipe dollar hoses are only good for one thing....car washes.