Discipline: Volunteer & Career

[Guest]

Just wondering what the discipline and consequences for volunteer and career departments were?

Let's take an example- if a member was not following a signifcant safety guideline, and the officer conciously ignored it. There was a large potential for a member to get hurt doing this activity.

As a career officer, I would definetly get called out by the union, and get reprimanded by upper management. I could possibly even lose my job or position, given the seriousness of the situation.

I don't know much about the volunteer system- what mechanisms are in place for that kind of situation?

[DCJPells 29]

Just wondering what the discipline and consequences for volunteer and career departments were?

Read General Municiple Law 209-L Removal of volunteer officers and volunteer members of fire departments.

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf...OMMONQUERY=LAWS

Career Staff are covered under their CBA and Civil Service Law

[Guest]

All cases are different, but I would say that the chain begins with a verbal reprimand, followed by a written reprimand. As the frequency or seriousness of an offense becomes greater, so does the disciplinary measure. The next step is often a 30 day suspsension.

In the past, my first department did in fact expel persons for repeated or very serious offenses. We had one member who was arrested for theft OUTSIDE of fire department work. He was terminated, the idea being that as a a firefighter you are constantly in peoples homes and businesses. Trust is far too important. The Chief's council used the, "conduct unbecoming a member" as grounds for termination. Good enough for me.

[CFD320 35]

Over the last 10 years of volunteer service I have seen reprimands, suspensions, formal hearings, and one person thrown out of a department. I think volunteer departments are constantly changing organisms because Chiefs change so often. Some are much more lenient and in some cases oblivious than others...

[antiquefirelt 994]

This is a constant struggle in our combination department. It always seems like two sets of rules. No answers here.

[HFD750 6]

This is a constant struggle in our combination  department. It always seems like two sets of rules. No answers here.

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I'd have to agree with you... It's not easy.

[FFD941 20]

This seems to be a problem within the fire service; however, it shouldn't be. A firefighter is a firefighter whether he/she is carrer or volunteer, each should abide by the same set of rules and regulations set forth by their departments.

[ex-commish 490]

Just wondering what the discipline and consequences for volunteer and career departments were?

Let's take an example- if a member was not following a signifcant safety guideline, and the officer conciously ignored it. There was a large potential for a member to get hurt doing this activity.

As a career officer, I would definetly get called out by the union, and get reprimanded by upper management. I could possibly even lose my job or position, given the seriousness of the situation.

I don't know much about the volunteer system- what mechanisms are in place for that kind of situation?

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We have mechanisms that conform with GML and also Town law with respects to fire districts. As always we try to handle things before they escalate unless it is a serous issue. We have suspended and dropped people for various violations ranging from failure to make training to being disordely

[FFD941 20]

This seems to be a problem within the fire service; however, it shouldn't be. A firefighter is a firefighter whether he/she is carrer or volunteer, each should abide by the same set of rules and regulations set forth by their departments.

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And I should add that the firefighter should be disciplined in the same manner.

Edited December 30, 2006 by FFD941

[Jason762 2]

And I should add that the firefighter should be disciplined in the same manner.

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And how exactly do you discipline a vol. firefighter? Unfortunately a vol firefighter really has nothing to lose. Career guys can get written up which can be placed in your personnel file and can affect you down the road when it comes to promotions, further disciplinary action, etc. Also they can take vaction time away, suspend w/o pay, and terminate an employee. None of this can be done to a volunteer, which basically makes them unaccountable for their actions. There is no vacation time to take away, promotions aren' t really promotions and certainly aren't done in the same manner as paid jobs, you can't suspend someone w/o pay as they aren't getting paid anyway, if you suspend them, who cares they just won't come around, and if you terminate them they still don't lose anything except the ability to be a member of the FD (no loss of pay, benefits, etc.) For these reasons I can see a real problem with disciplining a volunteer. In the paid service when we have a problem with an employee there are many avenues you can take, and the threat of losing ones livelihood is usually enough to make people straighten themselves out.

[helicopper 1,050]

And how exactly do you discipline a vol. firefighter?  Unfortunately a vol firefighter really has nothing to lose.  Career guys can get written up which can be placed in your personnel file and can affect you down the road when it comes to promotions, further disciplinary action, etc.  Also they can take vaction time away, suspend w/o pay, and terminate an employee.  None of this can be done to a volunteer, which basically makes them unaccountable for their actions.  There is no vacation time to take away, promotions aren' t really promotions and certainly aren't done in the same manner as paid jobs, you can't suspend someone w/o pay as they aren't getting paid anyway, if you suspend them, who cares they just won't come around, and if you terminate them they still don't lose anything except the ability to be a member of the FD (no loss of pay, benefits, etc.)  For these reasons I can see a real problem with disciplining a volunteer.  In the paid service when we have a problem with an employee there are many avenues you can take, and the threat of losing ones livelihood is usually enough to make people straighten themselves out.

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In Departments with LOSAP, you could penalize someone financially with disciplinary action. To be eligible for the LOSAP benefits don't you have to be a member in good standing? If someone is suspended, that would be a break in service and could eliminate the benefit for that year. Would that work?

You can't just shrug and say that someone is a volunteer so you can't do anything when they're a discipline problem! There has to be something to protect the agency and the public they serve!

[AFS1970 504]

Not having any klind of a LOSAP, I have always thought that one of the best punishments would be to restrict the social aspect of the members participation. Go through the normal process of verbal and written warnings, but when suspension comes up, instead of taking an otherwise useful firefighter away (which is really just like giving them a vacation anyway) restrict their attendance at the next social function, be it a picnic, muster, Christmas party or such. Since these social functions are, in a way, kind of like our benefits package as a volunteer, it seems to me that such restrictions are as close as you can get to a financial penalty.