Sending Firefighters Mutual Aid- Requirments

[x635 4,066]

Something firecapt32 said sparked yet another thought.

When your department sends mutual aid, let's take for example a truck company was requested, what do you send- memberwise?

Does your department require a minimum amount of personel respond on mutual aid, and what is that number?

How does your department maintain staffing that's effective and quick to protect YOUR community, while you have sent personel out? For volunteers, what about the strapped daytime hours, and career- off duty recalls?

Do you send a supervisor, what rank, and how many, and how do they get there?

Most importantly, does your department have minimum qualifications for the members going on mutual aid? Experience, training, or do you send whoever you can get or whoevers working?

It's my opinion that when an IC requests a truck company....he shoud get a truck company.....that includes a minimum of 4 guys, with relevant truck company operations and experience. Anyone can request a ladder- but that stick or tools are useless without the appropriate personel.

Edited December 24, 2006 by x635

[AFS1970 504]

I think having certain requirements for a mutual aid crew over and above your regular crew is really missing the point. If you are saying you will only send your best out of district, are you saying that your own distrcit can settle for second best? Unless the request is for a specialized skill or team, it should not matter. You should be advocating your highest standard on all your crews. I realize this doesn't always happen, but it should remain the goal none the less. If I have someone I can't take out of district with me, then I probably don't want to take them with me in district either.

As for coverage remaining back in district, this is an interesting debate that goes on in my station. One school of thought is to handle one call at a time, go whereever you are sent and if mutual aid is needed for any other calls then so be it. The other school of thought is of course, that we should always send a small crew out and hold back the remainder of the department, just in case a second call comes in.

Here is a related question....when called to relocate to another station for coverage, should you bring as big a crew as your apparatus can safely hold, or should you only send a minimal crew? For years we have sent a 4 man crew if we relocated, but as apparatus has changed all of our first due rigs now seat six. My feeling, although I am in the minority, is that if you are relocating then the department you are covering is already shorthanded. Bringing extra manpower when avalible can't be anything other than beneficial. I wouldn't delay a response waiting for a larger crew, but if they were avalible, I would certainly bring them with me. Just a thought.

[ja3kfd 34]

Katonah we send, all Interior Crew, No Juniors, or Probies allowed as well we keep all other Members that show up on Stand by in Quarters.

That is 4 Men in back 1 Officer and Driver. Usually 1 Chief

[firefighter36 52]

Here @ Fairview (Dutchess,) All of our career members can respond mutual aid. We send 2 officers and a firefighter on the vehicle. Additional seats can be filled by volunteer members with interior qualifications; FF I, HazMat Ops, FAST, FF Survival. No volunteer members may respond in POVs.

[hudson144 150]

when you send the mutual aid out with an eng/trk who's watching the store? if you can't take care of home on a normal day you shouldn't be sent to take care of someone else's !!!!

[Arrowxt 8]

We send what they ask for , ie: Tanker, pumper or , manpower. If one of the first two are requested then the unit rolls full, 6 members and usually one Chief. If manpower is requested we fill the unit and then fill the Chief vehicle and go in. Taking the first 6 members and a Chief does not hinder our department in any way as the rest of the crew that stands by our quarters is more than capable and qualified.

We do not allow probies or junior members to go mutual aid unless instructed by an officer.

As far as sending a capable crew, I tend to want to do so to stand by as you will be covering a district with one piece and a delayed time of response if it is a big job.

Arrow

[Guest]

We require all members responding to be interior qualified, minimum of 4 on a engine, 5 on the tower. One of the crew must be an officer, and anyone responding on the tower must be trained to operate it. Tanker requires a driver and one firefighter. No Cadets can respond mutual aid. As for the rescue, I have only seen it go mutual aid one time and since so many guys showed up, the 6 man crew was picked based on experience and training. Usualy the people who do not get on the truck will stand by or stay in town to cover.

[Monty 35]

when you send the mutual aid out with an eng/trk who's watching the store? if you can't take care of home on a normal day you shouldn't be sent to take care of someone else's !!!!

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For most departments (volunteer anyway), a normal day is no fires! So, in my mind sending as many as will fit the apparatus makes sense. There should be a minimum standard though, so you don't end up with an engine for example with two exterior firefighters! Or a FAS Team with 3 people .....

It does seem that there are some who would rather show up with a minimal or inadequate staffing than admit they can't get a crew and have someone else take the call.

I guess these things should be written in to part of the mutual aid plan - and if someone keeps flouting them, they are removed from the compact.

Without getting in to a different subject (but a pet peeve anyway), for a standby in quarters, should it be an emergency response?

[hudson144 150]

sending units out for mutual aid is more than just sending the rig,chief officers should be aware that they have interior qualified firefighters.I recently saw a stand by crew with its senior members standing by. Not pointing fingers but the dept can refuse to supply mutual aid if they are already committed with another company at the scene. this is for everyones benefit including the community involved. Don't take me wrong because I know someday my day will come when its time to pass off the interior work to the younger firefighters.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This is a time where you can't worry about feelings when your a manager. If they are not interior and don't fit the assignment they may be going on they shouldn't go. I saw the ridiculousness of this first hand when many of us relocated to the city right after 9/11 and some of the persons some departments were allowing to go to the city.

Monty, this was talked about some time ago. But no it shouldn't be and cannot be emergency response. It is not a true emergency and severe litigation could result in the event of an incident.

[firefighter36 52]

when you send the mutual aid out with an eng/trk who's watching the store? if you can't take care of home on a normal day you shouldn't be sent to take care of someone else's !!!!

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The 4th Person on the shift stays back, and additional career/ volunteer manpower is called back as directed by on duty officer, and as each situation warrants.

Also, I see alot of "Interior Qualified" but nobody is listing what their department's criteria is for being an interior firefighter. I know we talked about differences in training before, but I'm interested to see what different departments define interior as.

[firecapt32 282]

Glad I sparked some interest-- The more we are training with ff1 ff2 ect the less of a problem this will be. The more our Officers get educated Into to fireofficer/fire officer 1 2 ect the better they will be able to manage the fire department and the fires.worrying about who is arriving shouldnt be a concern to the IC BUT it is right now. If I am the IC and need a FAST I want quailfied personnel responding not just some body filling a position or someone that "dosent want to miss a job"

Some department are right on the mark--- and should be congratulate, other department have a long way to go. As a IC I have the right to ask" who and what qualification of personnel arse you sending me" and I should haev the right to say no thank you I have to look elsewhere for personnel. As IC you are pesponsible for allthe firefighters the arrive to your incident.

[billfitz 109]

- just as the 2 mutual aid drills conducted between Westchester Units & FDNY in the past year coordinated by the NYSOFPC - personnel from OFPC had laptops at the staging area to check the training records of the units participating as set forth in FDNY's standards - recommended in a post 9/11 report.

[LCFD968 10]

Uniform Training Standards

All Firefighters entering the Fire Service in Putnam County after August 1,2002 must comply with the following training standards:

To receive an Interior Firefighter Accountability Tag, Departments will certify via Interior Firefighter Form that subjects have successfully completed the Basic Firefighter Course,(#91) the Intermediate Firefighter Course (#92) and Firefighter Survival (#87) .

Above is the Putnam County Standard for an Interior Firefighter. After that we are issued a County accountability tag that is to be handed in where ever we go mutual aid.If you don't have the tag you can't go mutual aid.

Edited December 26, 2006 by LCFD968

[foreman1923 22]

Uniform Training Standards

All Firefighters entering the Fire Service in Putnam County after August 1,2002 must comply with the following training standards:

To receive an Interior Firefighter Accountability Tag, Departments will certify via Interior Firefighter Form that subjects have successfully completed the Basic Firefighter Course,(#91) the Intermediate Firefighter Course (#92) and Firefighter Survival (#87) .

Above is the Putnam County Standard for an Interior Firefighter. After that we are issued a County accountability tag that is to be handed in where ever we go mutual aid.If you don't have the tag you can't go mutual aid.

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Not every dept. in putnam has a "PUTNAM COUNTY TAG" but we still go mutual aid

[lad12derff 283]

New Rochelle sends 1 officer and a minimun of 2 ff's on the engine or truck for all mutual aid. In the career side of things we are all qualified for interior so that is not an issue. As for the comments about fast companies coming in for mutual aid I don't understand that. The I.C. should already have the fast team in place at the job by the time mutual aid comes in. It isn't much of a fast truck if we come from New Rochelle to your city or town and things go bad before we get there now is it? If you have doubts about ones ability to provide a fast team you should have your own men do it, who you as an I.C. know are trained to your depts standards. Can't speak from the volunteer side because I am not part of it so who knows what goes on there.

[hudson144 150]

ladder12-even on the career side fast teams are a smoke screen depending on where you are. 2 guys standing IFO the structure with no fast training whatsoever is a joke. thats 2 less guys doing the much needed work on the fireground. I am in favor of fast team but only when they are done correctly. just putting 2 guys IFO the bldg to satisfy a law does nothing for anyone!!!

[robert benz 344]

New Rochelle sends 1 officer and a minimun of 2 ff's on the engine or truck for all mutual aid. In the career side of things we are all qualified for interior so that is not an issue. As for the comments about fast companies coming in for mutual aid I don't understand that. The I.C. should already have the fast team in place at the job by the time mutual aid comes in. It isn't much of a fast truck if we come from New Rochelle to your city or town and things go bad before we get there now is it? If you have doubts about ones ability to provide a fast team you should have your own men do it, who you as an I.C. know are trained to your depts standards. Can't speak from the volunteer side because I am not part of it so who knows what goes on there.

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most vol depts in westchester dispatch a mutal aid fast team on a "10-75" it cuts down on lag time, and frees up your own manpower to fight the fire. Manpower what it is all the way around, most vol depts have the same aggresive interior firefighters also fast certified, and you cant be in 2 places at once. so it makes sense to have auto mutual aid for fast. Now you have members from another dept that have nothing to do with the firefight and can dedicate themselves to the one job that they are assigned to do.

look how many jobs we have had where the fast engine got put to work and never replaced, who was watching our back? and as Hudson states in his reply look who may be your life saver standing in the street?

[Remember585 815]

Some of you in Southern Westchester may be able to verify this. I remember seeing a thing from the Yonkers FD that specified what manpower should be on each rig - I think it was 1 Officer and 3 Members?

It's a good idea, but I don't think we will ever see something like this in Northern Westchester where hurting feelings is more of an issue. Some towns still play the "if we don't call them then they won't call us" card. Get real. It's almost 2007, use your heads!

[dc2t 80]

There should be a county wide minimum standard for mutual aid response. I believe that 4 members (1 off 3 ff ) should be the standard.

[robert benz 344]

Some of you in Southern Westchester may be able to verify this.  I remember seeing a thing from the Yonkers FD that specified what manpower should be on each rig - I think it was 1 Officer and 3 Members?

It's a good idea, but I don't think we will ever see something like this in Northern Westchester where hurting feelings is more of an issue.  Some towns still play the "if we don't call them then they won't call us" card.  Get real.  It's almost 2007, use your heads!

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yes Yonkers did specify 1 officer and 3 firefighters thats what they send and expect it back. down side to that where we used to send 1 engine and 1 truck with 3 members on each now they get only one apparatus

[exmrvfc 0]

Like FireCapt32 says, as more people take the training everyone gets better. A FF without FF1 or its equivalent, is about as useful as a haligan with no FF to use it. FF1 is just a minimum and as others have said, FF2 and other courses would be preferred. IMO, if you are going mutual aid, you need to be interior qualified and ready to work. What does the IC do when he asks the officer and his men to do a job and the officers says FF "x" is only exterior? Exterior is OK if you are going for tanker ops or cascade duty. Going to work or even to standby, you need trained people to do the job.

[dools16 1]

yes Yonkers did specify 1 officer and 3 firefighters  thats what they send and expect it back.  down side to that  where we used to send 1 engine and 1 truck with 3 members on each now they get only one apparatus

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As Capt. Benz said all career depts dont have the manpower of Yonkers. Send 1 officer and 2 FF or cant send the truck