Drinking in the Fire Service

[ajsbear 11]

OK its the holidays and we all have had a few. What fire companies/departments are dry? What companies do not allow alcohol in the firehouse at all (even privite parties using the firehouse) and what departments do not allow drinking at any department sponsored events?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

My answer....not enough. I'm not an extremist, I believe social events legal aged adults should have the right to consume. But at any other point in firehouses, there should be no bars, no readily available alochol. That time has come and past. I've seen companies active firefighter rolls shrink and shrink while associate levels rise and rise. You want social activity and alcohol go join the elks club or any other social club. There is a time and place for everything...you want to be a firefighter....or do you want to play firefighter and then get to the beer?

[CPAGE 2]

My firehouse is a dry house but we have a bar (not stocked) but we the BYOB thing. If we have a company or department party then we stock up. As far as members drinking and riding we set up a duty crew for the day. The driver we have never drinks any time so we have it pretty good and it works.

[Guest jblazing56]

our rule is your drink you don't go on calls alcohol at firehouses should be allowed due to let guys relax. but make sure you have a crew or crews that aren't drinking or have another company cover your area if it is some big event.

[Guest]

There is no place for alcohol in a firehouse. There are no bars/kegs/alcohol in general in a police station and i surely don't have a keg-orator in my ambulance and as we all have an important job to carry out i don't know why a firehouse should be exempt. If you want to relax do it at your house, a bar, a club, a friends house. I do more ambulance calls than both fire houses in my response area combined, does that entitle me to a six pack on the job? Absolutely not. When I'm in the station or the ambulance the public expects (and more often demands) that i be in a state of constant readiness to respond to an emergency, assess that emergency and treat that emergency in a professional, adept, intelligent and mature manor. I don't have time to be tired and i don't have time to be burnt out and i definitely don't have time to kick back and relax with an ice cold bud light. I hold vollies to the same standard. If your spending time in the station, weather its watching TV, working out or just killing time, you should be ready and prepared to respond to an emergency if so called and do it in the aforementioned manor. You cant do that if your boozing. Not to mention, i can imagine the regulation issues associated with having accessible alcohol and underage members.

Edited December 23, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[ajsbear 11]

What about fire company sponsored events? Friendship nights, installation dinner, picinics, softball etc? What about family parties that are sometimes held in the firehouse? Should drinking be allowed at those or if an outside group uses the place for a party?

Edited December 23, 2006 by ajsbear

[firecapt32 282]

ajs-fire stations are public property no alcohol shouod be allowed, bot even a hint of alcohol.I am sure there are a lot of stations that have bars, soda machines fullof beer, and things like that.

bottom line alcohol and firefighting do not mix.

As for functions picinics, dinners, ect you might be able to get away with it as long as its outside the station. but when you hang up the XZY fire company banner and are useing public funds be aware of the concequences.

[LCFD968 10]

While I think there is a problem with "BARS" in fire house's, is that the real issue here. It seems to me the problem is drinking and responding to calls not there are alcohol served at installation dinners, picnic's and etc...... Everybody knows that anybody can respond from bars, parties, home after swigging back a few six packs. What happens there? Who is responsable? WE ARE!!!! We are the ones that need to tell them to get off the truck.

In 2004 a Wisconsin (not positive about the state) firefighter was enroute to a brush fire in a tanker that rolled over and killed a 17 year old junior firefighter. He came from the local bar drunk. Thats one of many stories.

Its up to us to be responsible no matter where the alcohol is being served...

like firecapt said "The bottom line is firefighting and alcohol don't mix"....

AND MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYBODY!!!!!!

Edited December 23, 2006 by LCFD968

[ajsbear 11]

While I think there is a problem with "BARS" in fire house's, is that the real issue here. It seems to me the problem is drinking and responding to calls not there are alcohol served at installation dinners, picnic's and etc...... Everybody knows that anybody can respond from bars, parties, home after swigging back a few six packs. What happens there? Who is responsable? WE ARE!!!! We are the ones that need to tell them to get off the truck.

In 2004 a Wisconsin (not positive about the state) firefighter was enroute to a brush fire in a tanker that rolled over and killed a 17 year old junior firefighter. He came from the local bar drunk. Thats one of many stories.

Its up to us to be responsible no matter where the alcohol is being served...

like firecapt said "The bottom line is firefighting and alcohol don't mix"....

AND MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYBODY!!!!!!

←

Don't get me wrong guys, I agree liquor and firefighting DO NOT MIX. What I am saying is at events such as dinners etc where department money is not being spent on drinks should you be allowed to have it at your own or the members expence? What if you and a group are OOS and you either have a covering department or a detail to cover?

[Remember585 815]

We always designate a crew for any function we have going on with our Company. As a matter of fact at our Wetdown we kept the rig in service with a full crew of 8 until 2300. After that we had a crew of 6. People told us we were stupid for not taking ourselves out of service. However, the other two engine companies either had members at our party or out of town so we felt it was more responsible to keep the Engine in.

Our firehouse has no alcohol in it. We did away with the beer machine much to the shagrin of some, but overall it was a welcomed change. Our bar is still kind of there but there is nothing to drink and it is used for storage. If someone is using the house for a party alcohol is allowed only in the meeting room / lounge. If it is an outdoor party - it must be in a non-labeled container, like a plastic cup.

We've found that the bulk of our guys who are our most active choose standby duty over drinking - which is refreshing to know.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Not for nothing how many times are we going to discuss this again this year and the next?

Every few weeks it comes up again in one way or another and yes i do agree there are two sides to the topic but it always ends up into a (blank)ing match and the thread gets locked out.

Its never going to be resolved and the argument will still linger. Time to move on to something else.

Sorry but I'm tired of seeing this topic all the time regardless of my own opinions.

[EJS1810 7]

Thanks Izzy, I was gonn suggest renaming this The Official Holiday Thread because it comes up the same time every year and the same opinions and ides are given.

Edited December 24, 2006 by EJS1810

[bob803 1]

our rule is your drink you don't go on calls alcohol at firehouses should be allowed due to let guys relax. but make sure you have a crew or crews that aren't drinking or have another company cover your area if it is some big event.

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You want to relax go on vacation. That is a terrible excuse.

[bob803 1]

Don't get me wrong guys, I agree liquor and firefighting DO NOT MIX. What I am saying is at events such as dinners etc where department money is not being spent on drinks should you be allowed to have it at your own or the members expence? What if you and a group are OOS and you either have a covering department or a detail to cover?

←

What about sponsering an event and too much booze is served anf that person gets into an accident and decides to seek legal action. The Dept/Town would propbably be named. So using money from the dept would not be wise. HAve the guys wack it up.

[x635 4,066]

Not for nothing how many times are we going to discuss this again this year and the next?

Every few weeks it comes up again in one way or another and yes i do agree there are two sides to the topic but it always ends up into a (blank)ing match and the thread gets locked out.

Its never going to be resolved and the argument will still linger.  Time to move on to something else.

←

Not for nothing, as I absolutely agree with threads that beat a dead horse, but unfortunetly this horse is not dead.

I strongly disagree with your notion that "this will never be resolved". One day it's going to be resolved.....because something bad is going to happen, and it may even lead to some type of legislation, not to mention bad press for the fire service.

In my opinion, this is an important issue. There a lot of members that come and go on this forum, and if we can get into some of their heads that this is wrong and why, and just maybe spark a little thought into this, then maybe we've helped in some way.

There are many problems in this business. A lot of these problems get simply brushed aside, and people don't wan't do deal or hear about them. But they are there...and I've heard stories over the past inspection and holiday party season that absolutely horrify me that this kind of stuff is going on in my own county. I have high regard for my profession, although it's a brotherhood and guys spend a lot of time together, and in some communities the firehouse doubles as a clubhouse- but this is not the 1950's anymore- the firehouse where we diligently work to provide the best service we can to the public and ourselves, cannot double as a bar- period.

Again, as for the comments that this problem will be resolved and this topic is a nusiance- I agree that this topic comes up a lot, but to say that this problem is never going to be resolved is part of the reason why this topic comes up a lot- obviously, a lot of us are frusterated.

[ajsbear 11]

There are a lot of departments in this area that are to spme point "DRY." No booze allowed in the firehouse. This is usually waived for parties that use the firehouse. 1 or 2 departments no longer allow parties in the station with booze.

If we listen to our department lawyers, no booze at any function, picnic, installation etc because if someone drinks too much and they drive and get into an accident or even fall and get hurt the department is the responsable party. If an outside group or a member uses the house for a party and the same happens, who is the responsible party? The fire department. We have this debate going on right now in our firehouse. The board has banned all booze at any event involving the department or its stations.

We have had parties where anyone who is drinking is OOS. We have had events where we have a department cover for us from the begining of the event until 6 AM. While I agree with most of the policy I think it's gone a little too far. 1 or 2 drinks, a toast to the new officers are ok. It's the 1 or 2 members who don't know when to stop. It's the outside people coming into the firehouse for a party held by a member who then the department has no control.

That's why I brough this up. As X635 says this issue will be one that comes up all the time until it is uniform. You want to be sociable? Let the members go to the bar and drink on their own. As I said no booze in the firehouse is ok but there are other functions I beleive there needs to be allowances for.

[biglew 3]

I don't think it is a matter of resolving this topic, it should be a matter of learning about other departments, and adopting policies that your own dept feels best suit your needs.

IN MY OPINION, Volunteer ff's get a bad rap here. They are no more apt to be drinking a beer in their home watching football on Sunday than any other profession. But they have the responsibility to respond and be sober when they are acting in the course of their duty. If they feel they cannot meet that obligation on any given day, they should not respond. They come to the firehouse on their time to be closer in case of a call.

There are many inactive or social members of departments ( that do not respond to calls) that should be allowed to have a drink in the firehouse.

I photgraphed rigs for nearly 21 years, and ironically , whether it was NY, NJ, PA, CT, MD, VA, DE, (the states I did most of my work in) I was offered a beer in 80% of the vollie houses I visited. Having beer in the house should not be the issue, its members who are in a position to respond, where the controversy comes in.

I am not a drinker myself, but lets not confuse someone who appreicates a drink, with an alcoholic. Yes ff's have an obligation to protect the people they serve and their colleagues, but as some members have stated correctly, if you respond from your home and youve had a beer or 2 in the past couple hours, whats the difference if your had it at the firehouse? The answer is perception and political correctness. You should be able to tell if you can work safely in a stressful, dangerous environment. And if you can't, a company officer or chief should tell you. I have heard the stories too where drunk apparatus drivers have been in accidents , resulting in death to members, but that is not the norm.

Tons of cops go to have a drink after their shift, to unwind, but does that mean they cant carry their sidearm. WE ARE NOT TAKING ABOUT BEING DRUNK HERE. We are talking about the social use of alcohol.

As far as social events in the house, beer/liquor should be allowed. Like I said , if your on duty, or an active member, then there should be some restrictions in place. But the company barbeques, holiday dinners, funraisers, lets be realistic here. Its not that the issue cant be resolved, its that it cant be resolved practically speaking. Do you put a 1 beer limit on members in a firehouse? Not practical. This is not a SOBRIETY issue. No member who is not sober should even be allowed in the house.

Bottom line is this, Rules are fine, but with a volunteer organiztion, you might bite your nose to spite for face, meaning if you get too restrictive,

you'll be hearing that same tone go out 4 times for manpower, because no one will qualify to come to the house for the run. Otherwise make a paid county dept, and set your rules in stone. Last item to ponder, so if you have a paid member coming to work 6x9 tour, and he had a beer or 2 at 4:30 PM, how exactly are we going to know? Same thing, colleagues or officers will be able to tell.

Liquor in the vollie house should be OK, drunk firefighters should not be.

Happy holidays to all, and a safe new year.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I strongly disagree with your notion that "this will never be resolved". One day it's going to be resolved.....because something bad is going to happen, and it may even lead to some type of legislation, not to mention bad press for the fire service.

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Seth -

I am talking about the issue being discussed in the forums, yes I understand there are problems nation wide about this and yes, someday the worst is going to happen. Hopefully that day will never come but if it does it is going to be a total mess to say the least.

The statement was geared towards the topic and discussion through various threads itself and how it has been in the past handled by the members. In the end the topic gets so much spin that it turns into a ridiculous mudslinging fest at each other. No the issue of drinking and doing something stupid.

Just wanted to clarify.

(NOTE: I had to edit this do to a typo in my first part of the statement and reply, sorry for the confusion. Please be safe all of you this holiday season - Izzy)

Edited December 25, 2006 by IzzyEng4

[AFS1970 504]

The solution to this problem is best left to local rule, simply because while the fire service is certainly a single service, we are far from unified. The reasons that there are so many answers to this debate, is that solutions are as varied as the departments that are seeking them. But as someone else has said, the problem is not drinking. The problem is drinking and responding. We already have rules about driving under the influence, what the fire service needs is a regulation on responding under the influence. We do need to solve this, because if we do not tackle this from within, it will be settled from outside and none of us really wants that.

I visited a friend’s firehouse in Long Island once and saw they had a bar. I was surprised because we have no bar in my station and I haven’t seen an active bar locally. The rules for the bar were explained to me, and I have to say I was impressed with the safety precautions they had in place. Chief among them was no one responds when they have been drinking.

The case in Wisconsin was even worse, that posted here. The driver had multiple DUI arrests and was sentenced to weekends in jail during the incident. He did not inform the Chief or the Department of this, and they had no idea why he wasn’t around on the weekends. Obviously this sort of thing can’t be left up to the honor system, if people won’t tell a Chief. The Chief can’t be expected to restrict a member if he doesn’t know what’s really going on.

I have long heard stories of the days when there was always a keg on tap at my fire station. Times have changed. We no longer have that keg on tap. But the problem is not drinking in the firehouse, because I can get just as drunk in a local bar or right here at home, and respond when the tones go off. The problem in my opinion is all in the response. I don’t care one way or another if a member drinks when they are not planning on responding to calls.

While lawyers do have the legal expertise, and we should count on their advise. The fire service should not rely to heavily on lawyers, as they will but such sever restriction on everything that it will both be hard to do our jobs and attract other to become firefighters in the future. The IAFC addressed this problem, without regard to payroll status. The IAFC standard says no responding or being on duty within six hours of drinking. Obvious impairment will make itself known to any officer who cares to notice. If there is no impairment, then there really is no issue.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Both fire companies in our town are dry. Since both buildings are town owned, we must abide by the town charter and town code which prohibits alcohol on town property. When we have a social function, we must get a letter of approval from the 1st selectman. We also have to have a special rider on our insurance with the town as a party on the policy.

We use to have our family picnic and clambake at a town park.. so we moved it to a private catring hall to avoid any problems. It ended up costing us more $$$$$ , I think we will go back to the park and limit the alcohol .

Both stations used to have fairly nice and comfertable bars, bothed were closed down when a new station was built and had no bar at all.

As much as I would like to have a nip or two on Fridays nights, I do not miss it at all.

[Monty 35]

My answer....not enough.  I'm not an extremist, I believe social events legal aged adults should have the right to consume.  But at any other point in firehouses, there should be no bars, no readily available alochol.  That time has come and past.  I've seen companies active firefighter rolls shrink and shrink while associate levels rise and rise.  You want social activity and alcohol go join the elks club or any other social club.  There is a time and place for everything...you want to be a firefighter....or do you want to play firefighter and then get to the beer?

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My wife refers to some departments as Social Clubs with Fire Trucks. It seems that we can't drag ourselves in to the 21st century. Probably, everyone has some sort of policy against any drinking and driving apparatus - how many have rules about responding in POV? How many actually enforce this? I wonder what would happen at a DUI checkpoint? It seems some are more interested in keeping numbers up, keeping the old traditions, not upsetting the old timers or something else other than why we should be here (in my mind anyway it's the service, not the social life).

Part of the reasoning I hear for having so much variety in rules and regulations is that it is because NY is home rule and it's up to each locale to set its own rules. Subsequently the state and county don't want to get involved. However, the County could get involved in Mutual Aid plans or County resources - if it had the desire to do something other than maintain the status quo.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The solution to this problem is best left to local rule, simply because while the fire service is certainly a single service, we are far from unified. The reasons that there are so many answers to this debate, is that solutions are as varied as the departments that are seeking them.

This is exactly why I believe it shouldn't be under local rule. There should be a state wide mandated ban on stocked bars in firehouses.

Talk about liability. What if a fire station is owned by the municipality and there is a bar in it. If that person leaves and gets in a collision or kills someone the municipality could be named as well. So either the local's whom set the rules don't know this, don't get it or don't care....local rule doesn't work. That's right up there with the "we do things our way here," phrase I often hear.