Photo Guilt

[x635 4,066]

Today, while photographing the fire in Greenville, a thought reappeared in my head that I've always had.

There's something dramatic about a fire that ordinarily draws a crowd of spectators. It just seems natural.

But part of me feels guilty, here we are photographing these peoples houses burning down and their lives being turned into ashes. Worse are those who come just to watch.

I know fire buffing has been around a long time, and I'm a part of it, but I have mixed feelings. One side of me feels that fire photography shows what we do, there are people who want to see it, ways photos can document the job that we do and what happened. The media is going to cover it anyways. It is also a hobby.

And then there's part of me that feels bad that there's numerous people watching and photographing this like it's a spectator sport. Although I'm not sure if it's wrong, is it disrespectful?

Mixed feelings I guess. I mainly look at it as photojournalism that's specific to our profession....just like the media covers wars, etc. It;s human nature to want to know what happned and even more see what happened.....especially in this line of work.

[Guest]

i don't think you can say one way or the other. I can see the excitement of shooting a live/active scene. At the same time, i can see an owner being upset that someone is enjoying taking pics as your entire lively hood goes up in smoke. I guess the only thing you can do is do it with a high degree of professionalism, respect and sensitivity.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Having an all intensive purpose can be beneficial. In the past, I have known many photographs either I, or someone else had taken, were using in the investigation of fires, or other type incidents. They can prove to be a documentation that will recollect better than a person's memory.

Also, in a critique, they can prove a useful tool. In cases like that, any and all photos and documentations should be opened up, and offered to the participating department(s) (now don't take that to be me accusing anyone of NOT doing that, I am just stating a good "what SHOULD be done").

In the off chance anyone here has never checked it out, go to http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com and check out some of the pictures they have from incidents. There are some absolutely INSANE/INSANELY stupid things people do out there, and hopefully from the stories, and sometimes associated PICTURES from incidents, we can all learn from other's mistakes.

Thirdly, and finally, and probably LEAST importantly, they can be a "pride" thing. All FFs love to have their homes/firehouses adorned with photos of incidents they have been to, myself included. It is in part your heritage, and it is what we all do, and we all love to pat ourselves on the back sometimes (its also a nice conversation piece when people see and ask about the pictures).

I COMPLETELY respect, and understand what x635 was talking about, I really do. But on the same page, so long as your presence is not detrimental, interfering with operations, or upsetting anyone (i.e. homeowner who's house went up), I don't see a reason why we SHOULDN'T keep out there, doing what we all love to do.

Just my two cents.

Happy Holidays to all!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Knowing you, I know you do it in a professional manner. For both learning experiences, sharing and to give the brothers some action shots of themselves.

What is the difference are those who go around salivating, like they need a bathroom to themselves and are smiling and laughing with their buddies and whooping it up as they take pictures as if a fire is the grand spectacle of the century and their lives. To those grow up. You want a fire...I hope its your house.

To you x635...you are professional and a gentleman. I enjoy your pics and some you have shared I have used for training. Which we will discuss when I email you later, there are a couple I might want to use for tactics training with my computer simulator. lol. Keep up the good work and sooner or later I gotta join you for one of your photo runs to learn more about how to take quality pics or I'm gonna have to hire you to do them for my powerpoints when I need equipment photo'd without flash glare. lol.

[Guest nickcabral]

I look at it this way....You are helping to preserve history. Prior to photographs what do we have for recorded history? Articles, journals, writings and an occasional painting, which who knows if it actually depicts the truth. Photgraphs are hard evidence. I am sure that at some point in your hobby you will run into someone who has been devestated, and they will not appreciate your presence, but by dealing with them with proffesionalism and understanding, I am sure you can convince them your intentions are to document and preserve not to harass or embarass.

Old time war photographers were often critisized for being "that guy", you know, the one that wasent good enough for the infantry so he was given a camera. Truth is, without them we would have no photographic history of wartime actions.

30 years from now that Greenville fire would be nothing but a small memory to only those who were there. With pictures it will be a story to everyone who walks down the hall in the fire station and takes a look at another quality photo by x635.

[HFD750 6]

You know what I don't understand I was at the DES meeting last night and they brought up taking pictures at fire scenes. It was interesting some were saying how if your taking pictures you can get in trouble. You can end up in court because if the insurance compnay's ask around the fire scene to see if anyone knows if anyone was taking pictures and your pointed out you could be dragged into court for your photo's. It was also mentioned to try and minimize picture taking at your fire scene. Has anyone heard of anyone ever getting dragged into court because of pictures they took.Or has anyone ever been contacted by insurance companys for the same reason. I mean alot of people take pictures whats so wrong? I even heard a lady yelling at this guy yesterday at the greenville fire for taking pictures,she kept telling the guy it's wrong and he should be ashamed. Why? it's on the news all day and night. But on the 10:00 o'clock news you see worse things then a fire. One more thing if someone is taking pictures let's say at your fire scene you can always ask for a copy and you'll see things you couldn't see before. It's like a learning tool I think,learn from the photo's you might want to change some things,or not.

[x635 4,066]

These comments are in regards to those who are in OUR business and what was mentioned at the DES meeting last night.

Many people who are anti-photography in our business, in my opinion, are ignorant or aren't sure of their skills, so they are afraid that their incompetencies may be caught on camera. Also, I don't believe that a department can put restrictions on your photography off-duty.

I can understand your department putting restrictions on you while you are on duty and working a job.

As far as getting dragged into court, well, what are you supposed to do- never take photos? Because even if you take photos of a park or at a public event, you can be dragged into court as well. And I woulnd't put it dragged....you may be asked for your photos as evidence, as part of the investigation, or you may be a witness.

I know in many muncipalties, police officers often "shoo" buffs from a fire scene, or keep them at a distance. There are those of us who have specific departments we follow and photograph, some who do it professionally or as a hobby, and behave professionally on scene. Now, there are some that ruin it for the rest of us. And there's also the issue about one of us getting hurt at the fire scene.

People have been taking fire photos for many years. Now, with the proliferation of digital cameras and websites such as this, there is much more of an interest in it, and where printed photos could only be shared within small circles, digital photos can be shared around the world very easily.

I also agree that photos are a great learning tool and critiquing tool. Maybe departments should have a program where you as a credible person/photographer sign up as a photographer for that department, and you sign waivers, and you get a pass that allows you access to the scene. As a condition of this program, you must give copies of all photos taken to the department.

In closing, I find it sad that this is a major topic of discussion at a chiefs meeting, especially when there are so many other pressing issues affecting the fire service in this county.

I hate how some people make this hobby out to be a major issue. Oh, accountabilty, response times, staffing, training, communications, battalion coordinators....who cares....LETS GO AFTER THE PHOTOGRAPHER! Seems some want to censor everything.....can't talk on this forum, can't take photos, just keep quiet and hidden and all our problems will be hidden. No, let's not address the problems....let's cover them up! And that's one of the main reasons.

The way things are going, special interest photography will soon be illegal.

Edited December 20, 2006 by x635

[tbendick 27]

As far as the court/legal issue.

I have had photos requested by a law firm for legal reasons. The photos were not my photos but someone from my site, I took care of all the contacts for him.

Not wanting to have him dragged into court, I looked up and contacted some lawyers. What we ended up doing in the end was selling the copies of the prints to the firm to cover his costs of the prints, etc. Not sure what ever happened with the photos or if they were used in any matter.

If the photos had been requested by a FD/PD. I would give them a copy on CD with a strict statement on not reprinting them or using them for something other then the intended reasons.

[ex-commish 490]

Knowing you, I know you do it in a professional manner.  For both learning experiences, sharing and to give the brothers some action shots of themselves.

What is the difference are those who go around salivating, like they need a bathroom to themselves and are smiling and laughing with their buddies and whooping it up as they take pictures as if a fire is the grand spectacle of the century and their lives.  To those grow up.  You want a fire...I hope its your house.

To you x635...you are professional and a gentleman.  I enjoy your pics and some you have shared I have used for training.  Which we will discuss when I email you later, there are a couple I might want to use for tactics training with my computer simulator. lol.  Keep up the good work and sooner or later I gotta join you for one of your photo runs to learn more about how to take quality pics or I'm gonna have to hire you to do them for my powerpoints when I need equipment photo'd without flash glare. lol.

←

I concur with ALS. If it wasn't for expert fireground photograpy/video such as yours, how would we we learn anything.

As far as the Greenville Fire, great shots. I hears some members were hurt...hope the injuries were not serious and wishes for speedy recoveries.

[steve shryock 0]

Liability should not be a concern of the photographer unless you are in the way.

I can't agree more with Andy about learning. We all can look at the same object but each will have a different opinion based on our different angles and focus points. However with photos we are able to see the same item from the same angle and have intelligent debriefing.

This was one of the best mediums we had in the safety officer course that Firecapt32 taught some time in 2005.

Another point for the photographers. If you put the photos online and I as an insurance adjuster am able to locate them with a search engine, I will contact you and will request copies of certain photos if it pertains to the claim I am handling. As the adjusted, my carrier will pay the costs for these photos and the expenses to enlarge them. The only thing you might have to do is come to court and authenticate that the photo was the one you took and it was not altered.

These requests will mostly come when there is a liability issue such as personal injuries or an exposure seeking costs for damages.

[E1E2TL3 0]

I look at it this way....You are helping to preserve history. Prior to photographs what do we have for recorded history? Articles, journals, writings and an occasional painting, which who knows if it actually depicts the truth. Photgraphs are hard evidence. I am sure that at some point in your hobby you will run into someone who has been devestated, and they will not appreciate your presence, but by dealing with them with proffesionalism and understanding, I am sure you can convince them your intentions are to document and preserve not to harass or embarass.

Old time war photographers were often critisized for being "that guy", you know, the one that wasent good enough for the infantry so he was given a camera. Truth is, without them we would have no photographic history of wartime actions.

30 years from now that Greenville fire would be nothing but a small memory to only those who were there. With pictures it will be a story to everyone who walks down the hall in the fire station and takes a look at another quality photo by x635.

←

I agree with nick. Having gone through an experience over 30 years ago, it would have been nice to have an array of photos. not only to see the time line etc., but all I have of what the house use to look like is a worn out black and white copy of the newspaper article.

[10-Buff-4 0]

I look at it this way....You are helping to preserve history. Prior to photographs what do we have for recorded history? Articles, journals, writings and an occasional painting, which who knows if it actually depicts the truth. Photgraphs are hard evidence. I am sure that at some point in your hobby you will run into someone who has been devestated, and they will not appreciate your presence, but by dealing with them with proffesionalism and understanding, I am sure you can convince them your intentions are to document and preserve not to harass or embarass.

Old time war photographers were often critisized for being "that guy", you know, the one that wasent good enough for the infantry so he was given a camera. Truth is, without them we would have no photographic history of wartime actions.

30 years from now that Greenville fire would be nothing but a small memory to only those who were there. With pictures it will be a story to everyone who walks down the hall in the fire station and takes a look at another quality photo by x635.

←

Nickcabral said exactly what I was going to say Seth. Fire Buffing, to me anyway, partially involves the preservation of history. So long as you aren't interfering, or making an a** of yourself, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. That being said, you should be discreet, at least, I think so. But I believe that us buffs shouldn't be patronized or criminalized for what we do. We are preserving history, and in the words of General Thucydides, "If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we are bound to repeat them." Seth, you are preserving history. Like Nickcabral said, nobody will remember that fire 30 years from now. But, you have kept the memory of the hard work and sacrifice that the Greenville, Scarsdale, Yonkers, Fairview, and White Plains Fire Departments, Greenburgh PD, Greenburgh EMS, Scarsdale VAC, (did I get every single agency right I hope) and they can be proud of it as their hard work. And you never know, what will us historian-writers turn to when we are writing the histories of these agencies?

I don't have very much Fire Ground Photography Experience, so perhaps, I'm not the best authority, but, I am a Fire Buff, writer and historian and I know the pride I feel in seeing photos of the past and that I can learn from these photos.

Just my two cents. I hope it's something meaningful, anyway.

-Joe DA BUFF

[hawkbase 21]

Seth, I believe that what you are experiencing is what is know as a concience, without one you would not be worth a sack of beans. If you ever lose it it is time to get out of the business...until then keep sending us the great photos. And enjoy yourself while photographing!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I know some law enforcement agencies are restricting the photographing of certain MVA's until the investigation is complete and I can understand why. That is an issue that needs to be discussed with your local law enforcement agency.

As far as the other stuff, yes they can be used and there has been some cases in the US where video as well as still photo's were used in some lawsuits. I wish I could remember the one that was in firehouse.com news but I can't and apologize but it was discussed amongst myself and a friend who serves as a safety officer.

[x134 46]

I also like to take pictures in the Dutchess County area also to keep the Arlington professional firefighters site currant.(www.arlingtonpffa.org) I buffed a fire scene last year where people were reported trapped camera in hand. I was there for about 5 minutes, searches were in progress and the next thing I knew the brothers came up the staircase with two victims. I can honestly say I had a sinking feeling in my stomach and stoped clicking. I didnt feel it was right to keep taking pictures and did not want to portray a bad image to the public. Just be smart out there,stay out of the way, and be safe. If the police or a Chief dont want you to take pictures they will tell you.

[bob803 1]

The only time I see this as being a problem is when you are working and take pictures. I do not want to mention people whom I have seen show up at a fire and instead of doing their job they are taking pictures. I have witnessed this with both PD and EMS

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I have witnessed the same bobo...and instead of taking a leadership role, was snapping pictures while other things were in chaos. It is unbelievable that it occurs, but I'm glad I'm not the only one to see it, nor dislike it.

[Billy 68]

I think any of us with a heart or any kind of respect have had that guilty feeling of photographing a fire. If you really think about it though, in almost all cases its about photographing the actions of firefighters and others at the scene of the fire that we're really after, not the raging fire that's coming out the window. Its always about having people in the pictures that makes them interesting.

I don't know why exactly, but I have always felt more comfortable taking pictures at fires involving "taxpayers" or busineses than homes or certainly apartment buildings. I guess its because your business or your car, for example, can be nore easily replaced than personal belongings from your home.

Basically, you stay out of the way of emergency workers and not draw attention to yourself.

My experience taking pictures at some fires (especially in urban areas) has been people being more excited about you being from the newspaper or tv news than getting upset at you for taking the pictures in the first place!!

Anyway, Happy Holidays to all and keep those pictures coming!!

[Guest Photounit]

I'm new to this web site and was looking around and found this post and I have to say I share most of the feelings expressed here..... I have been photographing fires in DuCo for my 31-plus years in the fire service. I took a break during my years as an officer and now that that's behind me.... I've begun to get back into it again... My goal has always been to try to promote the fire service to the public and build camaraderie within my department or the departments I have photographed. Over the years I have been: Greeted with open arms by the FD personnel , Yelled at by citizens telling me I'm sick or something to that effect - But then I am a firefighter , Thrown off the incident scene by FD personnel, or threatened with arrest and confiscation of my camera by the PD ...... I have taken it all in stride and tried not to get frustrated and kept on going.....

That said....I recently was told that I was not allowed to photograph an AA in a neighboring jurisdiction that my FD was MA' ed to with our Heavy Rescue. We ended up getting cancelled, but I proceed in..... When I got there, I asked the Chief if I could take some photo's and he flat out said no..... Ok - he said after the patient was extricated and removed from the scene...If my dept was operating, I just would have started photographing because I'm operating with my dept...I don't take invasive photo's and just by his reaction I didn't want to argue..... So I just left...... I was being professional by announcing my arrival and intentions and I was totally caught off guard by his attitude. As I was walking away, a few guys I knew were asking why are you going..... I just said I have to leave and I'll see ya around..... This was an interesting accident, the lighting would have made for some great photo's, and the FD lost out on an opportunity for some good publicity...... This particular department has problems getting new volunteers and I wonder why....

I am a strong believer that photo's of FF's in action are a great way if used properly, to recruit FF's both paid and volunteer.... I probably would have put one of my photo's of this AA in the local paper (That's a sore spot with me that I could write another book on). When people see the photo's in the paper, and read that XYZ FD handled the incident it's good publicity for the dept. People see what their tax dollars are doing and some people see the photo's and say this looks interesting and I think I would like to get involved.....

I have to say that my department has always done a great job of publicizing what they do to the public and as a result, we have limited problems attracting or maintaining new members..... We are short in the daytime like everybody else because the days of living and working in the district are over for us too... But over-all, we do pretty well.....

Most departments love to see me show up at their incidents and even most PD's leave me alone because I stay out of the way and try to act professional and they're used to seeing me.... I had a close call at an incident in December that I laugh about now and here's a link to a photo with the story :

https://fdphotounit.smugmug.com/gallery/228...#119666816-L-LB

I didn't think he was going to selll me tickets to the policemans ball....

I was also at Rombouts recent fatal-homicide fire and that proved to be interesting for me.... Apparently from what I have heard, the police side of the incident was not happy with me initially. That now seems to have changed and hopefully some good things will actually come out of this sad incident for both the FD's and PD's..... I was able to get photo's that answered a lot of questions and give the investigators details that would have been lost or impossible for them to get otherwise.... If they had escorted me off the scene (Which a least one investigator initially said should have been done) They would have lost out on some valuable information.....

If you haven't seen these photo's , the link to my site is www.FDPhotounit.com .

They way we view the world changes by the minute and if you can't come to grips with that and embrace new technologies to your advantage, someone will push you out of the way when they do.....

Sorry for the run-on..... Stay Safe.... Bill

[Guest]

As far as crime scenes, civilian photographers shouldn’t be there.

As far as auto accidents, no problem taking pictures of the wreck, just no pics of the patients.

Its a slippery slope and it takes a certain degree of sensitivity and finesse to do it with class.

I'm not too sure how i would feel being photographed by a civillian or the press. I'm pretty anal when it comes to privacy and such, and dont want my face and employer plastered all over the internet.

Edited February 9, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[RescueKujo 130]

Seth,

I understand what you're feeling in your original post and I've felt it, also. But I look at it this way, and I think you can relate. While on the bus (truck, ambulance-whatever you call it in your area), you're given a major trauma patient. You're glad you are on the call, not because you wish ill of anyone, but you are using your skills to help someone. You're thinking quickly what the best treatment is, where to take them, and putting it all together. Kind of the same thing shooting scene photos. Best shot, what to shoot, etc.

Hope this helps.-Duane

[JetPhoto 626]

Photounit - I have to say I have had very similar experiences and I agree 100%

I have taken pictures for a long time now and yes while working but I always made sure the task at hand was handled first. I have promoted departments by submitting my pictures to the media as well as to that department for use on their web sites. I have taken pictures at fatal accidents but I did so with tact and if I did catch the deceased, the picture would not be distributed. I have been asked and have provided photos of some DWI accidents to the district attorney for use as evidence. He then made enlargements to stick in front of the jury. I have had victims contact me for copies of the photos to help with insurance claims.

That one moment that you might capture can provide a lot of information that may not be found otherwise. (such as Photounit's experience) It may also help the fire or police departments if something goes wrong on the scene during a call like if a person gets injured or killed.

So I say keep snapping and just use your best judgment before posting.