Response and Meaning of "10-20"

[huzzie59 75]

What are your department rules as they apply to types of emergency and non-emergency responses?

And the "rules" for operating the apparatus?

For example:

Full Emergency Responce - All lights and sirens all the time. Go through red lights, stop signs, etc.??? Wrong side of he road, wrong way up one way streets? How fast?

10-20 Responce - Turn off everything. Stop at all lights, wait for all traffic?

I'm curious as to your department's rules and regulations.

[steve shryock 0]

What are your department rules as they apply to types of emergency and non-emergency responses?

And the "rules" for operating the apparatus?

For example:

Full Emergency Responce - All lights and sirens all the time. Go through red lights, stop signs, etc.??? Wrong side of he road, wrong way up one way streets? How fast?

10-20 Responce - Turn off everything. Stop at all lights, wait for all traffic?

I'm curious as to your department's rules and regulations.

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Similar in my dept. however in NYS you are NEVER allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road! If you do and get into the accident you will have problems. Additionally in emergency mode it is lights AND sirens. Using due care and you should stop at red lights before proceeding, once it is safe to do so.

[STAT213 332]

Similar in my dept. however in NYS you are NEVER allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road! If you do and get into the accident you will have problems.  Additionally in emergency mode it is lights AND sirens.  Using due care and you should stop at red lights before proceeding, once it is safe to do so.

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Can you back up the statement about NEVER with the lines from the NYS V&T law?

Cause I just looked it up, and in Title 7, Article 23, Section 1104 (the emergency vehicle section) it states :

§ 1104. Authorized emergency vehicles. (a) The driver of an authorized

emergency vehicle, when involved in an emergency operation, may exercise

the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions

herein stated.

( The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle may:(including other things)

4. Disregard regulations governing directions of movement or turning

in specified directions.

Careful when you use words like NEVER. I am not trying to really bust balls, but I feel its important when you are posting on here - there are a lot of people who take stuff on here as gospel - to have the facts right.

So, you can go the wrong way as long as you use due regard. Now, many departments have policies regarding this. Mine is one of them. Law is another issue entirely.

Edited December 19, 2006 by STAT213

[steve shryock 0]

I remember reading the NYS VTL sections involving driving on the right side of the road and it mentioning crossing the Double yellow lines. The section you are reffering involves 1 way streets.

When I get home I will look it up as I have a copy of the VTL and how it pertains to emergency services. This is a commercial publication, of which i cannot remember the name but I have a copy at home, granted it is about 5 years old, it may be out of date.

[Guest]

What are your department rules as they apply to types of emergency and non-emergency responses?

And the "rules" for operating the apparatus?

For example:

Full Emergency Responce - All lights and sirens all the time. Go through red lights, stop signs, etc.??? Wrong side of he road, wrong way up one way streets? How fast?

10-20 Responce - Turn off everything. Stop at all lights, wait for all traffic?

I'm curious as to your department's rules and regulations.

←

Uh...don't know what department your a member of but YOU NEVER BLOW THROUGH ANY TYPE OF TRAFFIC CONTROL DEVICE! The only emergency vehicle that I'm aware of that is (i could be wrong) allowed to "blow" a red light is a police car. A lot of what your asking is covered in EVOC and CEVO II classes and is universal for any type of emergency response. You must ALWAYS utilize due regard, common sense, and a level of defensive driving when operating an emergency vehicle. As far as ambulance respones are concerned i abide by the following:

1) All lights and sirens all the time? No, absolutely not. Lights and sirens will be used in the case of a medical emergency. Remember, not every request for an ambulance is of emergent nature. I cant tell you how many wellness checks and person feeling "sick" calls we get - things like this simply do not merit an emergency response.

2) Go through red lights/stop signs? No offense...but no idea where you came up with that one. If its a red light, you stop and make sure your clear in every direction and then go through, with a stop sign, you stop and go through. If thats a policy that is practiced in your department/agency i suggest you take action immediately. You never, ever, ever, ever blow through a red light or a stop sign. I don't care what the call is and how "hot" it may be. You run the risk of killing innocent civilians, yourself and your crew.

NYS Says: "An emergency vehicle may: (2) proceed past a steady red signal, a flashing red signal or a stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation,"

3) Wrong side of the road or up the wrong way? Maneuvering to avoid traffic often is part of an emergency response. However, it should not be "policy." Meaning, "ok we have a 911 call so lets drive up in the wrong lane." Stay in the proper lane as often as you can and only leave that lane if the opposite lane is clear of any traffic hazards. As far as going up a one-way, do what you can to avoid it. Sometimes it happens or is unavoidable, but just like maneuvering on the wrong side of the road - dont make it a policy or every-day habit.

NYS Says: "(4) Disregard regulations governing directions of movement or turning in specified directions."

4) Speed? Again, we are given some flexibility with the speed, but are told to use due regard. You'll never find me doing flying down a residential street doing 90. In i usually don't go faster than 5-10mph over the posted limit and even then that depends on the road i'm on and the traffic conditions at the time. I don't care if its a cardiac arrest or a broken arm. Everyone generally gets the same response (in an emergency situation) unless otherwise indicated by units already o/s or by dispatch (IE: a request to expedite). Not only do i want to get to the scene to do my job, but i also do not want to create an unnecessarily hazardous situation for my fellow drivers.

NYS Says: "(3) Exceed the maximum speed limits as long as he does not endanger life or property"

A few other stipulations:

"(e) The forgoing provisions shall not relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons, nor shall the provisions protect the driver from his reckless disregard for the safety of others."

note: if this sounds a little harsh - i apologize - my intention is not to lecture. But personal safety and common sense are extremely important, our jobs are dangerous and risk prone enough as it is.

Edited December 19, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This is a topic of contention for me for many years. Now with the plain english I hear "proceed with caution." What does that mean? Nothing...we all always proceed with caution. Your department needs to have a policy on what is done once the situation under control is given and how to proceed properly. I've heard "come in easy," "all units proceed code 1." Whatever works...just dictate it in a policy.

1. There are no emergency vehicles in NYS that can "blow" a red light. The only exemption given to police vehicles is the use of a siren when using the exemptions granted under the VTL. Under NYS VTL fire/ems/police vehicles do not need to come to a complete stop at stop signs or red lights, just reduce speed. This is insance. NFPA 1500 dictates you must stop at such and is what makes total sense and is what needs to be followed, and must be followed, there are no exceptions. You will find this out if you are ever in an accident and they use the NFPA standard against you in criminal and civil court.

2. There is nothing that says you can't go against traffic either. As long as you are utilizing your lights and sirens. Again this is granted under NYS VTL 1104. Apparatus operators are taught to pass vehicles to the left whenever it is possible. This often means many of us in urban areas take the opposite side of the road. Again you are authorized when operating an approved emergency vehicle with at least one light visible..yada yada with a siren, gong, whistle, yada yada, to disregard regulations governing direction of movement or turning, etc.

3. Just to dispel another myth...just because your lights are on does not mean your siren needs to be on the entire time either. When utilizing exemptions of section 1104...operating above the posted speed limit (note I didn't use "speeding" we do not "speed" we operate above the speed limit as authorized), going through a traffic control device, requesting the right of way, etc. You need to use it. Enough with the "if my lights are on my siren needs to be on." It is clearly stated in section 1104 as:

...the exemption herein granted shall apply only when audible signals are sounded, while the vehicle is in motion, by bell, horn, siren, etc., AS MAY BE REASONABLY NECESSARY...

The biggest point is all the exemptions are granted when the said vehicle is responding to a "TRUE EMERGENCY!" 99% of what we are dispatched to are not emergencies...both fire and ems. Sooner or later we will see apparatus operators and departments held responsible for their actions responding to BS calls whether from dispatch or "IC's" having units continue in because of no policy when the "situation is under control."

I use lights and sirens for less and less. Especially when going to the hospital. I still get a few looks, but I do not use lights and sirens for cardiac arrests. That is not a true emergency. Nor do I use them for many of the trauma cases I have where they are not critical in nature but warrant transport to the trauma center. I do not use them on many nearly unstable cases I am treating. So I just love it when I clear a call to BLS or get cancelled and then watch them go whizzing by me, causing rebound accidents of other cars with their lights and sirens on.

[5slow 9]

NYS VTL allows fire vehicles to respond and return to quarters lights and sirens. I hope no departments allow their units to respond back to quarters with their emergency warning devices activated, but it's on the books...

Edited December 20, 2006 by 5slow

[steve shryock 0]

Thanks to alsfirefighter for clearing up a lot of what I intended to write tonight. Not only should we know the NFPA recommendations, which will be held in the courts as a guideline, and the NYS VTL but we should know case law.

I contacted a few attorneys that I work with who have access to westlaw and other sources of case law information. Short & sweet they told me was that if the operator of an emergency vehicle is operating with lights & sirens they are held to a higher duty of care as we are considered professionals and therefore we owe the public a higher duty of care.

As for crossing the double yellow line I was advised by these attorneys, one of which who does a lot of defense work for ambulance companies (I am insurance adjuster) said that there was case law in NYS from sometime in the 1980s where the courts determined that there is no reason, based on the law that the public must pull to the right & yield to the emergency vehicle, for any emergency vehicle to cross the double yellow line. He also added that the way the court decisions have gone over the past 20 years or so that driving on the wrong side of the double yellow line is being placed in the same category as passing a school bus with flashing red lights.

He is doing some research for me on this topic because he is a member of a tri state department and wants all emergency vehicle operators to understand what is now being accepted as the standards for operation. He hopes to have the citations for me in a few weeks, after the holidays pass.

Remember your EVOC course and the examples they showed you with actual newspaper clippings of tragedies. It can happen anywhere at any time so be careful. He closed by admitting that crossing the double yellow line is a common practice but when an accident occurs and the emergency vehicle is on the wrong side of the road, you'd better be parked, otherwise if you are moving the courts will hang you out to dry.

Edited December 20, 2006 by steve shryock

[helicopper 1,050]

NYS VTL allows fire vehicles to respond and return to quarters lights and sirens.  I hope no departments allow their units to respond back to quarters with their emergency warning devices activated, but it's on the books...

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Section 375-41 of the VTL permits a fire vehicle to use red and/or white revolving, flashing, or oscillating lights when returning from an alarm. It does not require it nor does it grant permission to use a siren for this purpose.

I can understand using some rear-facing flashing lights on fire apparatus for safety during a return to quarters, and certainly when backing into a station from a roadway, but using a siren for the return??? (Well, maybe if dinners getting cold!)

[helicopper 1,050]

SteveShyrock wrote: I contacted a few attorneys that I work with who have access to westlaw and other sources of case law information. Short & sweet they told me was that if the operator of an emergency vehicle is operating with lights & sirens they are held to a higher duty of care as we are considered professionals and therefore we owe the public a higher duty of care.

As for crossing the double yellow line I was advised by these attorneys, one of which who does a lot of defense work for ambulance companies (I am insurance adjuster) said that there was case law in NYS from sometime in the 1980s where the courts determined that there is no reason, based on the law that the public must pull to the right & yield to the emergency vehicle, for any emergency vehicle to cross the double yellow line. He also added that the way the court decisions have gone over the past 20 years or so that driving on the wrong side of the double yellow line is being placed in the same category as passing a school bus with flashing red lights.

It is definitely true that we are held to a higher standard when operating with lights and siren or when exercising some of the other privileges granted us during emergency operations.

Please post the citations about the case law you reference when you get them. I'll find them most useful as I'm sure many other EMTBravo members will!

Thanks and happy holidays!

Chris

Edited December 20, 2006 by Chris192

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Chris thanks for adding on about returning to quarters. That is nuts no matter what you do and using just lights sitting at a red light is more confusing to motorists and just adds more complacency when you actually need them to yield the right of way.

Steve, for every lawyer you can find to say that you shouldn't go into the opposite lane, I can find 2 that says you can and should. Fact is there is not definites and not all vehicles have room to pull over and you have no choice. There is one 4 lane rd. that during rush hour I spend the majority of time in the oncoming traffic lane because traffic has no place to go. I just slow it down even more and ensure that I am not part of a problem, but let the oncoming traffic if there is any...know what my intentions are and that I am not forcing them over but allowing them to get over to their right when it is safe.

Anyone that takes my EVOC knows that I hit NYS VTL and the NFPA standards thoroughly so there is no mistake in understanding the laws, what they grant and what legal responsibility an apparatus operator has resting on their shoulders. It all comes down to having a brain, controlling adrenaline through training and experience and slowing down.

[steve shryock 0]

Chris thanks for adding on about returning to quarters.  That is nuts no matter what you do and using just lights sitting at a red light is more confusing to motorists and just adds more complacency when you actually need them to yield the right of way.

Steve, for every lawyer you can find to say that you shouldn't go into the opposite lane, I can find 2 that says you can and should.  Fact is there is not definites and not all vehicles have room to pull over and you have no choice.  There is one 4 lane rd. that during rush hour I spend the majority of time in the oncoming traffic lane because traffic has no place to go.  I just slow it down even more and ensure that I am not part of a problem, but let the oncoming traffic if there is any...know what my intentions are and that I am not forcing them over but allowing them to get over to their right when it is safe. 

Anyone that takes my EVOC knows that I hit NYS VTL and the NFPA standards thoroughly so there is no mistake in understanding the laws, what they grant and what legal responsibility an apparatus operator has resting on their shoulders.  It all comes down to having a brain, controlling adrenaline through training and experience and slowing down.

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We're on the same page. I agree 100% that there are lawyers on both sides of the arguement. However in one EVOC course I took from VFIS about 6 years ago, the instructor did have a specific case in point from the Buffalo/Rochester region where the Appealate division held the ambulance at fault.

As for the brain that is an issue with lots of people. Just slow down a notch and think, take a breath and get away from tunnel vision.

[Guest]

Steve, just out of curiosity, whats the end goal your trying to reach? Are you trying to formulate a rock solid policy that is legally "air-tight" in an effort to alleviate the legal liability of your department?

[steve shryock 0]

Steve, just out of curiosity, whats the end goal your trying to reach? Are you trying to formulate a rock solid policy that is legally "air-tight" in an effort to alleviate the legal liability of your department?

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My end goal is to hope that everyone thinks and acts professional, gets the job done safely and stays out of trouble. I do not set policies for my department, i was only adding my 2 cents to this thread. There probably will not be any air tight policy because the judges and juries can be persuaded by arguements so the decisions will differ. I am speaking from my experience as an insurance adjuster handling liability claims and specifically handling ambulance liability claims for a few years.

I am not an attorney so I cannot consult my department about legal liability but I can tell them of my experiences from prior cases I handled as an adjuster and what the outcomes were along with the recommendations of various defense attorneys in efforts of risk management.

It all comes down to risk management, which is a major component of my profession. If we slow down and think, using simple guidelines based on case law then we can not do any harm to us. If you are in an accident it may go to a jury and the plaintiff will always argue that due regard was not used because if it was then the accident would not have occured and the civilians on the jury may buy it.

I would like to see the members of this board, especially the ones newer to emergency services, to learn that driving emergency apparatus is a skill. The emergency will still be there but for us to do anything we have to get there. This skill must be practiced regularly and all operators should be kept up to date on court decisions that may change how we operate.

[Guest]

My end goal is to hope that everyone thinks and acts professional, gets the job done safely and stays out of trouble.  I do not set policies for my department, i was only adding my 2 cents to this thread.  There probably will not be any air tight policy because the judges and juries can be persuaded by arguements so the decisions will differ.  I am speaking from my experience as an insurance adjuster handling liability claims and specifically handling ambulance liability claims for a few years.

I am not an attorney so I cannot consult my department about legal liability but I can tell them of my experiences from prior cases I handled as an adjuster and what the outcomes were along with the recommendations of various defense attorneys in efforts of risk management. 

It all comes down to risk management, which is a major component of my profession.  If we slow down and think, using simple guidelines based on case law then we can not do any harm to us.  If you are in an accident it may go to a jury and the plaintiff will always argue that due regard was not used because if it was then the accident would not have occured and the civilians on the jury may buy it.

I would like to see the members of this board, especially the ones newer to emergency services, to learn that driving emergency apparatus is a skill.  The emergency will still be there but for us to do anything we have to get there.  This skill must be practiced regularly and all operators should be kept up to date on court decisions that may change how we operate.

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Very interesting and valuable view and info on things. Make sure to keep us updated on the trends you see from the insurance/liability perspectives.