Radio Traffic

[Fex404 0]

There is something that I was thinking about last night when monitoring the radio and I was wondering if anyone here and any suggestions on improving the radio traffic.

Last night specifically, there was a dept that was out on a working fire, and from the initial dispatch to the chief on scene there were other departments stepping all over this department with repeating dispatch over and over again. It made communications very difficult for units on scene and for county.

The two departments are ones that are dispatched by agencies other than "60 Control" -

Do you guys have any suggestions that you think would possibly eliminate this --- and I am not sure about the new radio systems being installed -- maybe those will help this issue.

Just to say this in advance --- I am not bashing anyone --- The fire was extinguished and everyone got home --- Just a topic for discussion.

[emt301 4]

Last night specifically, there was a dept that was out on a working fire, and from the initial dispatch to the chief on scene there were other departments stepping all over this department with repeating dispatch over and over again. It made communications very difficult for units on scene and for county.

The two departments are ones that are dispatched by agencies other than "60 Control" -

Do you guys have any suggestions that you think would possibly eliminate this --- and I am not sure about the new radio systems being installed -- maybe those will help this issue.

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Yes, I do have a suggestion....CENTRALIZED FIRE/EMS dispatch by 60-Control...it won't eliminate all radio problems, but would certainly help a great deal....it works GREAT up in Dutchess.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

You can centralize anything all you want. The answer is switching units off a main dispatching frequency. That is what the fireground (which should be called a working channel so more people use them, they are for all calls not just "fires") channels are for...that is what 46.14/46.42 are for.

The new radio system will elevate much of the issue that have been dealt with for years.

[trauma74 111]

I know that many Counties have had great success with "Centralized" Dispatch, but sometimes it can be a bad thing. I am going to speak from my own experiences from up here in Orange County. In the late 1990s Orange County started looking into getting a 911 system in place for all residents of the County. At the time, the Town of Woodbury had their own 911 system in place for their residents. All 911 calls were answered by Woodbury PD. The County has this grand scheme that they would make a 911 Center that would handle all the 911 calls and also dispatch for every single agency in the County. They has meetings with PDs, FDs and VAC's who already had their own dispatch centers in place. There was no way that any of these agencies were going to give up their own dispatch in favor of a "Central" dispatch. Prior to the 911 Center, all PDs that did not have their own dispatch were dispatched by the OC Sheriffs Office (339), FDs were dispatched by KEE315 and the VACs were dispatched by a private answering service (Cullens Answering Service aka 510). With the exception of the VACs, PD and FD dispatch was run very well.

Orange County hired a Commission of Emergency Communications. Her name was Virginia Panzarella and she was a retired telephone company supervisor. She had NO experience in the Public Safety field (unless you count being married to a State Trooper). From the begining it was said that she was going to cater to NYSP. NYSP basically demanded that they get "Polled" for all calls in any Towns in the County (Villages were not included for some reason). Due to the fact that NYSP does not use 10 codes, the County decided to abolish the use of 10 codes when the 911 Center went live. Many members of the 911 Committee had more then 20 years in the dispatching field and most of them were forced off the committee because they did not agree with the hiring of Panzarella and they did not agree with the NYSP getting polled for calls.

The next cluster **** with the 911 Center was the 800 band radio system. NYCOMCO came in and told the County that their EDACS 800 system was the best thing around. It would provide the PDs with privacy because it could not be monitored with any scanner currently on the market. Before all the details were explained, the County jumped up and said they wanted EDACS. After they signed the contract for this 800 system, NYCOMCO came in and said "OH, By the way, if you want 90% coverage on 800 around the county you will have to find 10 more tower sites and build towers for a total cost of $300,000. The County said no way and now there is only coverage for about 1/2 the County on 800.

Next came the choices for Supervisors for 911. They hired people who had never been dispatchers before. One guy was a NYC Dept of Homeless Services Police Sgt whos only experience with radios was listening to his radio at work and his scanner at his house. Another guy was a vacuum cleaner salesmen. I know two former 911 dispatchers who scored 100% on the Supervisors test. One was fired on bogus charges and the other one was forced out the door.

Since the inception of the 911 Center here in OC, there has been so many problems. Unprofessional Supervisors who hang up on you when you call to complain. I had one Supervisor tell me that I did not like the services being provided by the 911 Center I could find someone else to dispatch for my agency.

I am not saying that all counties with centralized dispatch are bad, but you should be careful what you wish for!!!

[Captain 402 3]

Stepping on units is never a good thing , once units have arrived on scene we go to our fireground channels (2 or 3 ) and the Chiefs Aid remains on 1( primary dispatch).This enables incoming units to communicate w/ the fireground via the Chiefs Aid while the IC communicates and monitors units on scene channel 2 or 3(interior). It works well when units follow SOPs and gives priority to on scene units directly to the IC w./o interference.

.

Edited December 16, 2006 by Captain 402

[IzzyEng4 427]

I agree with ALS, As a dispatcher who worked for a centralized communication center if you have an agency that has a licensed set of frequencies that can be utilized for tactical / fire operations then you should use it.

The two best systems I have seen so far is LCD in Litchfield county and Cape Cod operations on their 800 Trunked system

LCD has a specific set of channels for their radio system. Channel 1 is dispatch, Channel 2 is operations on a repeater system, channel 3 is the incident command channel to dispatch, and channels 4 through 12 are the local on scene channels that share a total of four separate frequencies, each channel having their own DPL / private lines and are assigned specifically to certain communities so there is no bleed over from the next town. The also operate their old Low band system as a back up. Now other towns that do not use LCD have their own separate systems but have utilized the same VHF-narrow high band systems to interoperate with LCD dispatched departments and their radio system. Also too with the towers spread out, I believe they can also switch to the local on-scene channel and listen into fire ground operations depending how close the incident is to the tower but I am unsure.

Cape Cod is the same but they utilized a trunking system for their departments. Some are dispatched by their local towns or by Barnstable county control. The have thier own talk groups for operations. For instance if the town of Dennis has a job and Harwich is called in, Harwich units change over to the Dennis talk group. Station & pager alerts are handled on another channel.

[emt301 4]

You can centralize anything all you want.  The answer is switching units off a main dispatching frequency.  That is what the fireground (which should be called a working channel so more people use them, they are for all calls not just "fires") channels are for...that is what 46.14/46.42 are for. 

The new radio system will elevate much of the issue that have been dealt with for years.

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ALS....

I think we agree on things...perhaps I just wasn't clear in making my point. My point is that Dutchess 911 has 1 dispatch frequency, 1 frequency for command, 1 frequency for response, a frequency for helicopter operations, and multiple firegrounds...and it works out pretty well even when things get real busy like they can during a storm or if there's multiple structure fires. After working as a fire dispatcher in both counties during the past 3 years, I can say from experience that Dutchess's system, while not perfect, is much more efficient than the chaos that Westchester frequently experiences on the radio. The other thing is that in Westchester, even if dispatching is narrowed down to 1 frequency, without a central dispatching point you theoretically can have more than one agency trying to send out tones & dispatches at the same time. As unlikely as it may be, you could have (and I'm not picking on any particular departments here...only making an example) Mohegan, 60 Control, and Somers all trying to dispatch equipment at the same time on 46.26 & covering each other...with centralized dispatch you eliminate that problem.

Edited December 16, 2006 by emt301

[Oswegowind 17]

A New system where units are dispatched on a single frequency by a single agency (centralized) and in the dispatch transmission units are directed to which of the other available frequencies that the operation will be communicated upon.

Very similar to YFD but enhanced....dispatch channel is just that, tones and trailers and then a voice directing responding co's. recall done on 2nd channel with directions and on scene comm occurring...to better this, units would be assigned an ops ch to be utilized for that run.

I.E>

First call dispatched on dispatch freq...units to Ops 1 for this assignment.

Second call dispatched on dispatch freq...units to Ops 2 for this

and so on...

Even with just 2 dispatchers you will be able to handle it easily...just have to pay attention (which is hard to ask for from some people).

Oh yeah, no more stepping on each other.

[Oswegowind 17]

Edited December 20, 2006 by Oswegowind

[Remember585 815]

Some thoughts on the subject.

1. Get dispatched on one frequency, communicate with Dispatch on another, use tactical (non-repeater) frequencies on scene. Get away from trying to hit a repeater for a fireground communication.

2. On the tones - lose the trailers. They don't serve a purpose other then added air time and annoyance. We have one and it irritates the hell out of me.

3. Discipline your troops. Is it truly necessary for everyone to call on scene? Returning? NO! The clock stops (documentation-wise) on the arrival of your first unit. I can use my own FD as an example - all 3 engines, the truck, the tanker, the rescue, 3 chiefs, a couple deputies and a partridge in a pear tree all call on scene. Seems a little overkill to me - plus many times one units steps on another. If the IC clears all units there should be no reason to have everyone say the same thing.

4. Think before you speak - too many transmissions have "Um," "Ah," "Yeah," etc. in them. Think before you talk and make it a clear, concise message. I know we are all guilty of the "Foot-in-Mouth" disease at times, but lets minimize it on the air at least.

As for following NIMS every call..... I guess it does get a little carried away, especially if only one unit is on location. My other thought about an FD unit declaring "Command" on an EMS call - how's that work? Shouldn't the one with the highest medical authority run the scene? Not a jab at anyone, just a question coming from someone who is also an EMS person. If E399 is on scene as is Medic 99 - isn't the Medic technically in charge?

[mlfcemt093 0]

If E399 is on scene as is Medic 99 - isn't the Medic technically in charge?

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Who's got the bigger ego? chances are you will then find the I.C.

[Alarmroom 0]

Gentlemen: We all in the fire service have a set of guildines for such issues and they are the NFPA 1221 which clearly states the following:

A Dispatch channel

B Operations channel

C Fireground or tactical channel

D Mutual Aid channel

If we all follow these simiple sets of rules, I say, most, of those problems will be taken care of.

What I have found over the years is that we all like to hear ourselves communicate over the radio, especially if the department is on a repeater which could be dangerous in a collapse situation. Remember each time you key you portable the battery goes down, so just remember this try to throw a stone to the repeater or try to throw a stone from inside the building, and think of who you want to come to your aid. Just remember Hackensack!

[efd1674 5]

Follow Dutchess County, 3 different Channels.

453.900 - Dispatch

453.800 - Command

453.925 - Response

[Guest alsfirefighter]

emt301...we are saying the same thing. I live and operate in dutchess county as well.

I understand the Westchester current system all too well. I also know many of individual departments systems all too well...some better then their "management" does and they don't get the "fireground" channels and simplex and how staying on the "dispatch" channel is dangerous and not sound. Just the other day I was listening to a alarm and 60 was trying to send out another alarm for that department and no one listens before they speak and they are stepping on tones and transmissions. Wouldn't happen if they used the "firegrounds" for all incidents. When asked a while ago to one of them I know..."why didn't you use the fireground channel?" A: "I didn't want to tie it up."

Tie what up? Its a simplex channel that you are given to use...lol. And we wonder why.

Trauma..you have great points...but they are a lesson of what happens in mis-management and mis-information. The centralized ANSWERING POINT which has been recommended since the 1970's Presidental report on the topic that outlined 911 and the importance of having a single PSAP, was the right move. It just wasn't set up right, run right, or by the right person. That could have been saved and phased in to do right. It all started with the right people with the right attitudes, and the right politicians to secure funding to make it work. The 1/2 of coverage you had...if I came in there...that half would have loved the changes.

[millwood127 0]

ALS....

I think we agree on things...perhaps I just wasn't clear in making my point.  My point is that Dutchess 911 has 1 dispatch frequency, 1 frequency for command, 1 frequency for response, a frequency for helicopter operations, and multiple firegrounds...and it works out pretty well even when things get real busy like they can during a storm or if there's multiple structure fires.  After working as a fire dispatcher in both counties during the past 3 years, I can say from experience that Dutchess's system, while not perfect, is much more efficient than the chaos that Westchester frequently experiences on the radio.  The other thing is that in Westchester, even if dispatching is narrowed down to 1 frequency, without a central dispatching point you theoretically can have more than one agency trying to send out tones & dispatches at the same time. As unlikely as it may be, you could have (and I'm not picking on any particular departments here...only making an example) Mohegan, 60 Control, and Somers all trying to dispatch equipment at  the same time on 46.26 & covering each other...with centralized dispatch you eliminate that problem.

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mohegan and somers really sould use an alternate channel for dispatch other then 46.26. mohegan inperticular has a tendency to step on other depts being dispatched

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Mohegan gets stepped on just as much as the next guy. I lived in that area for a long time and have heard it first hand. Somers as well. What did help is when Mohegan switched their EMS dispatches over to another channel. I'm not bashing anyone but the same would help if somers did as well. But it is what it is. At least it is dispatching and alarm communications, unlike others that put over some of the stupidest transmissions at inappropriate times.