My Views On The "Career Vs. Volunteer" Attitude

[firefighter36 52]

x635, Right on. I think that the one thing that differentiates most carrer and volunteer agencies are levels of training, enforcement of said levels, and last but not least the testing (academic and physical.)

In no way am I against volunteer firefighters. I was one, and would gladly be one again if I was not forturnate enough to make this a career. I think that a lot of tension is created through policy and how it is created and enforced in different departments. All of my volunteer experience comes from two different combination agencies in two different states, each one set up differently.

The main thing I have seen reverts back to training. First and foremost, both places require FF I, FAST, Survival, Haz-Mat Ops, or some equivelent to be interior. For career guys, it is obviously the 229, or a career academy, as well as EMT, or Paramedic for EMS. This is the most important thing, a large base of knowledge and training is what sets the pace for how a firefighter will perform for real. We all know that we revert to training under stress.

Continuting training for career members is much more organized and documented, as it is required. In both departments, the same exact training is freely offered to volunteer members and various times, and it is their responsibility to attend. This is great, as it allows us to have the same continuing education, and allows us to train together. There are some people who don't attend, and it is kind of hard for these people to keep up with the operations going on when on a scene, and it shows.

I think turning a blind eye to physical fitness, education, and training, simply put comes from a sense of complacency. That can be a lethal mistake. The OFPC doesn't have a set standard, and NY is behind many other states in having set standards for all firefighters. For the most part, the academy seems to cater to more rural departments. One thing I find particularly frustrating is that there isn't a whole lot of hands-on firefighting class beyond the basic FF1 or recruit academy.

Without being long-winded, policy. NY is still behind the times. Organizations such as FASNY, while noble in their cause are largely finded by 2% money that is supposed to be benefiting ALL firefighters, not just volunteer firefighters. FASNY, from what I have seen is nothing more than a propaganda machine that touts tradition and complacency as a way to save taxpayer dollars. There are GARBAGE DISTRICTS on long island that charge more property taxes than fire districts with career personnel! It kills me to go to Albany to talk with politicians who aren't even aware that there are career firefighters in NY, who won't support decent political policy (i.e. special districts in NY state) to provide better fire and EMS service to citizens, purely because FASNY's lobbyists told them that it isn't a good idea. (yes, I was told this by a NY State Rep) This, to me, is just a bad management tactic used by FASNY and politicians to create animosity from both sides.

As for a paid/volunteer battle, I have noticed that tha majority of the bad blood is propegated by people with poor attitudes who discredit themselves with mindless comments meant to crank people up. I also notice that the majority of this sentiment come from people who lack proper interior credentials, could not pass a hiring test, or are under the age of 19. Consider the source.

I work alongside a great group of volunteers. I am proud of where I came from, and I'm proud to have the best job in the world! I hope that as time goes on, they get the opportunity to be career firefighters as well. They aren't there to take my job, and I'm not there to mock them come payday. What matters to me is that my fellow career members, who operate understaffed, have QUALIFIED volunteers resonding with us or on their way to alarms as backup. I don't care who gets a paycheck when we go home, just that we all do our job, and that WE ALL GO HOME.

Edited December 15, 2006 by mbendel36

[yfd910 8]

I like to think this whole "Career vs. Volunteer" thing can be summed up in June 2007 and every four years afterwards:

Drive by White Plains HS the day of the Towns & Villages Fire Test. See how many "Chief's" cars you see parked outside taking the test. See how many guys wearing their Department t-shirt's walk in and out. I've been taking these tests for years and there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of men grasping at the chance to get paid to be a firefighter.

Judging from all the stupid taglines most members have on here, I think there are too many young members who have no idea what's going on and have only heard one side of an ongoing dilema from the wrong people to have a real grasp on this whole situation.

I think volunteers have their place in areas that can't quite justify having full time FF's (1 or 2 runs a day), and there are areas that need full time FF's, but the problem of "vs." really only applies to combo departments, like when volunteers are used to supplement staffing during storms and recalls instead of calling in off duty members. That's when the problem arises. Just because I get paid for what I do doesn't mean I don't love what I do.

[ajsbear 11]

yfd910,

Lets us also not menton how many career FF's are volunteers in their home towns.

[yfd910 8]

yfd910,

Lets us also not menton how many career FF's are volunteers in their home towns.

←

Not mention it? You just did!

Yes, while it does happen and is looked down upon, like I said in my post, it's in a combo dept. that the problem arises. If career guys volunteer in a combo dept., they should give up their IAFF card and benefits. That's taking a job from someone.

Edited December 15, 2006 by yfd910

[ajsbear 11]

Not mention it? You just did!

Yes, while it does happen and is looked down upon, like I said in my post, it's in a combo dept. that the problem arises. If career guys volunteer in a combo dept., they should give up their IAFF card and benefits. That's taking a job from someone.

←

I agree, I think most of the career guys I know in the county and FDNY are members of "all voplunteer " departments.

[Guest]

I like to think this whole "Career vs. Volunteer" thing can be summed up in June 2007 and every four years afterwards:

Drive by White Plains HS the day of the Towns & Villages Fire Test. See how many "Chief's" cars you see parked outside taking the test. See how many guys wearing their Department t-shirt's walk in and out. I've been taking these tests for years and there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of men grasping at the chance to get paid to be a firefighter.

Judging from all the stupid taglines most members have on here, I think there are too many young members who have no idea what's going on and have only heard one side of an ongoing dilema from the wrong people to have a real grasp on this whole situation.

I think volunteers have their place in areas that can't quite justify having full time FF's (1 or 2 runs a day), and there are areas that need full time FF's, but the problem of "vs." really only applies to combo departments, like when volunteers are used to supplement staffing during storms and recalls instead of calling in off duty members. That's when the problem arises. Just because I get paid for what I do doesn't mean I don't love what I do.

←

I agree with most all of your remarks, they're very fair. I feel there's one exception, however. You comment on vollunteer organizations existing in areas where the run volume doesn't justify a full career force. I agree totally, but there are some Combo departments that do a call volume like this, but due to demographics, do not have enough volunteer personel a certain times during the day. The career staff is relied on and more vital during these times. Is it so wrong to allocate staff where it is needed?

If the call volume is low enough, but there is a shortage of man power at a consistant time, is it so wrong to call in overtime when it is needed and then make use of the volunteer force when time permits and personel are available?

[exmrvfc 0]

The posts about training are the best ones. Everyone needs to be trained and trained properly. A dept that allows its guys to operate when they have not taken the State training are not doing anyone any favors and are only opening themselves up to a huge OSHA/PESH problem. ON the flip side there is still career members in combo depts that have not been thru ANY academy training. The Westchester Career academy only started in the early to mid eighties and depending on the department you only did in-house training. What it comes down to is the attitude of every volunteer/combo/career dept that training is the only thing that can give you the tools to do the job. Experience makes you better. a paycheck just means its your occupation.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Just to add my two cents here:

People have to realize that there are really two types of "Combo departments"

1.) Combination Department on paper

2.) Functioning Combination Department.

My personal opinion is that there are a lot of jobs that really should be staffed 24/7 with a paid staff, not foremen, or janitors, but professional fire fighters who went through an academy. The volunteer force is thriving in some areas and thats great for them, but the moment the response time is increased from man power, the town should really look into some paid help. A paid staff with a few senior citizens who show up to direct traffic or to be on air outside of the building is not supplemental, more of a burden. The municipality loves these volunteers because its less salary they have to pay, while the citizens get sub par fire protection.

I want this to stand out so:

MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT EVERY TRUCK OR ENGINE SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST 4 PEOPLE ON IT, WETHER ALL CAREER OR VOLUNTEER. If you can't accomplish this your district is in trouble. What is a 2 man engine gonna do?

I think that people also have to realize what Seth stated too about the towns and the city who are robbing the citizens of 24/7 fire protection. These local governements are spending millions of dollars, but yet not $1 to staff a fire house. How many dept heads do you see with a take home vehicle? How much money are the administrators making? I have a few friends that do the following, and a lot of them are great fire fighters, who I would go into any situation with, but the town is paying them a salary to be on the DPW, they should be paying those same people a FF's salary. I know a lot of volunteers are worried that paid guys will come in and ruin 100 years of a traditional fire house. Well tradition is the worst thing for the fire service, and these people do not realize is that it is them who could potentially have the jobs. Include a residency requirement and previous work with the local municipality and wham bam you could have a great job in one of the strongiest unions of the world.

Edited December 15, 2006 by JustSomeGuy

[jd783 64]

I just wanted to add a little something to this thread. I live in a all volunteer town I would love to see them go to a paid dept, Who should these paid jobs go to, young people who live in the town and want to be paid firefighters. Would people mind the tax increase of course they would but as small towns grow to medium size towns I feel this is something that must be done, I pay for everything else where I live why not fire protection Just a thought

[HFD23 37]

I would just like to see more then FFI's 78 hour class as the requirement to be an interior firefighter in New York State. It is not sufficient. (Granted some departments require more) but New York state should require more lets face it were loosing about 90 to 100 firefighters a year both career and volunteer country wide that is unacceptable.

career and volunteers both need to have a minimum physical standard there are a lot of guys walking around that are potential heart problems or even worse, so lets get a medical and physical standard that must be met by both career and volunteer every year. (Also many depts. have medical exams yearly but some don’t, let’s enforce it.) Let’s get a CPAT or agility of some sort this is all aimed at our safety of both u and me and those we will be going to emergencies along side.

Let’s get more then 78 hours to be interior as a volunteer, require FF2. Require survival, require agility, and if u can’t pass the agility and be a volunteer then be fire police or a pump operator or EMS not every one needs to be interior.

develop a continuing education program require FF1 and FF2 and survival to be interior then have some sort of rule that requires like one or 2 additional classes a year of the volunteers granted its not their job but spacing it out over time should help fit peoples schedule say maybe truck ops and building construction in year two and so on it will add up in due time and be something more then this state has now.

78 hours doesn't make you qualified... I am sorry and you all know there are many people who this FF1 class is their 1st last and only, and this is all meant as no disrespect to those who do more, because there are plenty on each side that continue taking classes.

lastly the WCFTC runs a 2 week FF1 for college kids great its a great idea and helps fit their schedule but 10 days and your a interior FF who may end up on a engine 3 days after finishing this class maybe along side a senior guy who is the MPO and maybe one other younger member who took this class 3 days ago with you are you really ready for that? A crash course of 10 days isn’t enough and no dept should sign you off as interior after only that...

lets all get better standards state wide its for your safety.....

i would like to hear any reasons that can make a argument saying that 78 hour FF1 is enough..

Edited December 15, 2006 by HFD23

[mfc2257 464]

This is the list of training for the most qualified volunteer I know. He's a 27 year old assistant fire chief.

Pro-Board Fire Officer I, II & III

Pro-Board Firefighter I & II

Pro-Board Fire Instructor II

Pro-Board Fire Inspector I

Pro-Board HAZ-MAT Technician

Pro-Board HAZ-MAT Incident Command

Pro-Board Incident Safety Officer

Pro-Board Aerial Driver/Operator

Pro-Board Pumper Driver/Operator

Pro-Board Public Safety Telecommunicator I

PSFA Structure I & II

PA DOH/PSFA BVR Technician

EMT

Now the happy medium is somewhere between what he's got above, and what's generally acceptable as a minimum.

Again until the COUNTY sets the standard for minimum training, staffing, and response none of the arguments on this forum can ever move forward.

Once the county sets the standard a census of needs can be done for each department in the county (career, combo, or vollie) and action can be taken to make sure that vollies have the physical health and certification needed, and that career apparatus is being staffed with enough FF's to be safe.

Those departments that cannot provide what is required by the county will learn a hard lesson if the county has the balls to tell the taxpayers about the lack of service that they are getting.

[ajsbear 11]

Who's going to pay these new career fire departments? The Taxpayers? Are these the taxpayers who up in Philipstown voted against a raise in LOSAP from $10 to $25 and would cos tthe average homeowner $80 a year. Are these the same taxpayers who voted down building a new firehouse to replace an aging metal building thats rusting in North Highlands? See Seths pictures he posted the other day. The N. Highlands house is there in full rust. This would have cost the taxpayers in that district $140 a year. How much is a career department going to cost the taxpayers. Many towns the people are fed up with added taxes.

[IzzyEng4 427]

This is an argument that I have always hated.

How is a volunteer, who doesn't get paid, taking away a job from a paid guy? How is he taking his job away? Have you ever hear of a department cutting their career force so they could have more volunteers?????? Very unheard of.

What about utility or call-firemen aka part timers where departments use these part-timers, non-union workers to fill union spots all the time instead of hiring out to fill a position. What about agencies that should be calling back shifts to fill their stations or bring more manpower to an incident but make "special calls" and other tactics to by-pass contracts and by-laws on manpower issues? What about companies that have came in (aka Rural Metro) and did not allow their workers to unionize and said their service was better than any municipal funded system?

Now having said that lets look at this in reverse. How many volunteer departments are out their that have career (union or non union) workers? paid Chiefs, mechanics and drivers? Are they taking jobs away from volunteers or cutting their force? Yes there have been departments that have introduced career firefighters into their department for several reasons an usually it is for lack of manpower or an increase of population. But usually many of these remain combination departments to allow volunteers to continue to serve their communities.

Why is it frowned upon if someone who is a union firefighter wanting to volunteer in their hometown fire department and if they operate as an EMT as part of their career, it is not frowned upon that they area volunteering for a VAC?

Career firefighters who have this grudge should look at this the same way as the rest of their brother and sister unionized workers are who also volunteer their time doing the same type of job they perform day in and day out to help towns or welfare agencies with out blinking an eye.

As for volunteers with a grudge they should also be more acceptive of career workers because they are helping keeping their town safe and a great majority operated without any problems.

Everyone doesn't get along regardless of the who career / paid thing but we as firefighters tend to hide behind it more, why???? IT EASIER TO DO SO AND POINT FINGERS AT EACH OTHER.

Its got to stop. Who wants the soapbox next?

[x152 179]

Judging from all the stupid taglines most members have on here, I think there are too many young members who have no idea what's going on and have only heard one side of an ongoing dilema from the wrong people to have a real grasp on this whole situation.

←

YFD - nice point! It is about time someone mentioned those ridiculous "extra-salty??" taglines.

[HFD750 6]

I really can't believe all this back and forth... What happened to BROTHERHOOD!!

Get over it I know career guy's that don't even know how to pump water and haven't been training since they got out of school 15 years ago... And on the same note I know some volunteers that don't even know how to put an SCBA on let alone turn it on that have gone to FF1. So just train train train,go to classes and drill alot!! Bottom line paid guy's are here and volunteers are here, And hate it or love all of us have to work together. If my house caught fire I could really care less if it was paid dept,volunteer dept,combo dept whatever as long as they know what there doing.

This could on forever and will... So I'm done. It upsets me to see this.

I wish everyone of a HAPPY AND SAFE HOLIDAY

BE SAFE BROTHERS.

Edited December 15, 2006 by HFD750

[x635 4,066]

This could on forever and will... So I'm done. It upsets me to see this.

                                        BE SAFE BROTHERS.

←

I'm just curious if you could elaborate on this statement? Would you rather pretend nothing is wrong, and just go about everyday life, or have an open,constructive dialogue to resolve these issues, that....like or not and maybe not in your community but definetly others....exist?

I agree that some about of tension will always be present, and there will always be conterversy and politics. However, I hate how quickly people get offended and defensive whenever discussing anything sensitive. Maybe if people could learn to talk......and LISTEN to each other more...things would be better. As I've said, it's one thing to preach and believe, and another thing to act and spark change.

I feel this board is a great educational tool, to hear views from ALL sides. Many people only have the oppurtunity to hear a couple of possbly biased opinions, and this forum lets all the information be presented, discussed, and for people to make their own decisions....and learn and grow.

To those citing costs, that's just an easy way out. Are we supposed to provide substandard service because of cost? Or could we work TOGETHER to eliminate such things as duplication of services, merging resources, and other items to reduce costs to lessen the tax burden? Now, some towns will never be able to fund a completly volunteer department, and that's not my point at all....my point is that we should all be held to the same standards regardless, and stop making excuses as to why we can't, and start figuring out HOW WE CAN!

By the way, what happened to BROTHERHOOD meaning looking out for each other as well????????????????????

Edited December 15, 2006 by x635

[ja3kfd 34]

Maybe one way would be to Merge Deptarments, they could start there, Seth how many Depts. in Greenburgh? How many paid? How many Volunter? How many pieces of Apparatus? How many Chiefs and Chiefs cars?

I know in Town of Bedford all Volunter

9 Chiefs cars

2 Tankers

1 Ladder

3 Rescues

8 Engines

3 Mini attacks

2 Boats

1 Utility Truck

1 Ambulance FD owned

2 Air Cascades

what could they lose and still provide the same service ?

Merge into 1 FD

Lose 6 Chiefs CArs off the bat there is a Nice savings right there.

They could lose other things a swell but I am not the one to say what.

Westchester 2000 Report was a start

This a way to save Money,then start to structure it diffrently in the event they do eventuly go career.

The save money part if you have 3 dept. in 1 Town and all chiefs where paid 9 chiefs salary and benefits, how many firefighters would that pay for if you could cut 6 out of the payroll? This is all hypotheticall of course since they do not have any.

Just food for thought.

Edited December 16, 2006 by ja3kfd

[HFD750 6]

I'm just curious if you could elaborate on this statement?  Would you rather pretend nothing is wrong, and just go about everyday life, or have an open,constructive dialogue to resolve these issues, that....like or not and maybe not in your community but definetly others....exist?

I agree that some about of tension will always be present, and there will always be conterversy and politics. However, I hate how quickly people get offended and defensive whenever discussing anything sensitive. Maybe if people could learn to talk......and LISTEN to each other more...things would be better. As I've said, it's one thing to preach and believe, and another thing to act and spark change.

I feel this board is a great educational tool, to hear views from ALL sides. Many people only have the oppurtunity to hear a couple of possbly biased opinions, and this forum lets all the information be presented, discussed, and for people to make their own decisions....and learn and grow.

To those citing costs, that's just an easy way out. Are we supposed to provide substandard service because of cost? Or could we work TOGETHER to eliminate such things as duplication of services, merging resources, and other items to reduce costs to lessen the tax burden? Now, some towns will never be able to fund a completly volunteer department, and that's not my point at all....my point is that we should all be held to the same standards regardless, and stop making excuses as to why we can't, and start figuring out HOW WE CAN!

By the way, what happened to BROTHERHOOD meaning looking out for each other as well????????????????????

←

I know something is wrong Seth I just feel like it never gets any better. I wish I had the ultimate cure for all this but I don't. I agree with alot that is being said but then again I disagree with alot also. We should be held to the same standards your right. And as for figuring out how? I'm with you there,How and where do we start.

And BROTHERHOOD yes it does mean for me and I'm sure for alot of others looking out for eachother,taking care of eachother.

[unleashedff248 3]

As a member of both career and volunteer departments, I feel that the largest conflicts come in the way of training and experience. The career firefighters I know that I have talked to about this topic have the general opinion that volunteers are less trained and less experienced. Again, these are just the people I've talked to. I cannot comment about everyone.

When I first joined my career department, I was regarded by most of the firefighters as a 'wanna-be' volunteer (maybe because of my age?) working as a part-time paid firefighter. However, I was never mistreated, and even better, most firefighters took me in and taught me things. While we were out running calls, I proved myself to them and didn't step out of line.

This is very important. Prove yourself, and the volunteer/career gap lessens. As for combo departments, I know there are a lot more issues besides inexperience. I can't comment on this because I have no first-hand experience. As far as my experience goes, I've never have been put down as a volunteer by a paid guy. I'm young, and I don't have much experience but this is all I can say. It does upset me to hear that some people are prejudiced against volunteers, and it seems that there may be no changing them. All I know is that I'll keep proving myself as a volunteer and paid firefighter, and ignore any ignorant comments that I may hear about vollies.

[mfc2257 464]

Lots of talk about the same old stuff.

Not a lot of talk about how to solve the problems.

I live in Florida other wise I'd be the one to propose a group of career and volunteers to get together and talk with the county, union(s), chiefs assoc., town officials, and finally the departments who's leadership is stale and stuck riding the back step. (pssst I just made the suggestion for you)

Sooooo.... Someone step up and start working on putting the pressure where it counts.

If you're not willing to act, stop posting about the same old stuff because you're not part of the solution.

Edited December 16, 2006 by mfc2257

[Guest DFC278]

I've been in the fire service for 37 years Started out as volunteer in 1969,became a career firefighter in 1974, joined another company as a volunteer in 1976 and eventually became Asst. Chief. I became inactive in the volunteer service do to time limitations ( had to work the B job to provide for the family). I'm now Deputy Chief at my career job. I did all the above for one simple reason.I just wanted to be a firefighter and I still love what I am doing. The day I stop loving the job is the day I'll retire. The reason for my resume is this. I've seen good and bad on both sides of the fence and I gained alot of knowledge from serving both sides. This argument about vollie versus paid has been around as long as I've been in the service. I didn't care for it in 1969 and I still don't. It's a total waste of time and stirs up bad feelings all around. We all should remember why we are firefighters and that should be because we love what we do.Or maybe I'm just a dinosuar.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

I know in Town of Bedford all Volunter

9 Chiefs cars...

Lose 6 Chiefs CArs off the bat there is a Nice savings right there.

They could lose other things a swell but I am not the one to say what.

Westchester 2000 Report was a start

This a way to save Money,then start to structure it diffrently in the event they do eventuly go career.

The save money part if you have 3 dept. in 1 Town and all chiefs where paid 9 chiefs salary and benefits, how many firefighters would that pay for if you could cut 6 out of the payroll? This is all hypotheticall of course since they do not have any.

Just food for thought.

←

WoW! really 9 chiefs cars!?! Can I be a chief? lol

I am not picking apart your post, only thing I can tell you is IF they ever did go career, they could get rid of 8 chief cars, have riding Lts/capts. I always thought that if westchester did go all paid they could make every current fire house into a one eng/truck house, if your district has more then one house like a lot of us do then make those another 1 eng/ 1 truck house. Also a lot of vol. depts have way too much apparatus, a lot of time they have more gear, equipment, and apparatus then career houses, where I work some of our equipment is getting its wear and tear, while in the vol house they have tremendous amounts of brand new equipement locked away.

EMTbravo staff, my personal opinion is that so far this thread has been going great, Unfortunately as you have stated its hard to keep everyone on the same page of an open calm discussion and not a bash fest, or defensive posts with a "you suck" attitude. Anyway Kudos to the admin

[HFD750 6]

I've been in the fire service for 37 years Started out as volunteer in 1969,became a career firefighter in 1974, joined another company as a volunteer in 1976 and eventually became Asst. Chief. I became inactive in the volunteer service do to time limitations ( had to work the B job to provide for the family). I'm now Deputy Chief at my career job. I did all the above for one simple reason.I just wanted to be a firefighter and I still love what I am doing. The day I stop loving the job is the day I'll retire. The reason for my resume is this. I've seen good and bad on both sides of the fence and I gained alot of knowledge from serving both sides. This argument about vollie versus paid has been around as long as I've been in the service. I didn't care for it in 1969 and I still don't. It's a total waste of time and stirs up bad feelings all around. We all should remember why we are firefighters and that should be because we love what we do.Or maybe I'm just a dinosuar.

←

I couldn't agree more...

[GFD70 4]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that the majority of the tension comes from volunteers who fear that their volunteer department will be replaced with a career one. There are plenty of departments in Westchester that should have gone fully paid or at least combination years ago but due to the fear of change it hasn't happened.

[HFD750 6]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that the majority of the tension comes from volunteers who fear that their volunteer department will be replaced with a career one. There are plenty of departments in Westchester that should have gone fully paid or at least combination years ago but due to the fear of change it hasn't happened.

←

You think so? did you read all the post's?

[GFD70 4]

You think so? did you read all the post's?

←

Actually, in case you haven't noticed it seems that recently, anytime a career fireifghter even mentions anything related to volunteer firefighters there's an uproar. Just look at some of the responses so far (yours included).

I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have had a problem if my last post was blamming career firefighters for any tension.............

Edited December 18, 2006 by GFD538

[HFD750 6]

Actually, in case you haven't noticed it seems that recently, anytime a career fireifghter even mentions anything related to volunteer firefighters there's an uproar. Just look at some of the responses so far (yours included).

I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have had a problem if my last post was blamming career firefighters for any tension.............

←

First off my responses were for both sides... And both sides are too blame for the tension so if you did blame the other side I would have a problem. I have many friends who are in the career side of the fire service. So I wish not to fight with you because then we are only going to be part of the problem. Have a happy and safe holiday.

Dino