My Views On The "Career Vs. Volunteer" Attitude

[x635 4,066]

Every time I hear "Career Vs. Volunteer", it makes me want to cringe. Anyone who says "Career Vs. Volunteer" and then goes on to say how we should all just simply get along is contradiciting themselves when they use the word "vs". What is this, a war?

It's my perception that a lot of volunteer firefighters think "paid guys" are evil or "forgot where they came from". I also see a lot of that sediment on this board. On the flip side, there are paid guys that have their ignorant notions as well. It irks me even more when I see the kids in their late teens/early 20's retaining the same sendiment that has been around forever. Many of these youngsters are shooting themselves in the foot...the more jobs there are, the better their chances.

There's been lot's of tension between the two sides forever. Although I've only been a career firefighter for just over a year, I have over 10 years experience working with volunteer and career agenices in a variety of roles. We both have problems and flaws, and this is just my opinion. Hopefully I can give some of my personal insight into the issue.

Career Firefighting is a job. Yes, it's more then a job, but it is just a blue collar civil service job when it comes down to it. But it's tricky- what other profession do you see someone getting paid for a job AND doing it for free? It truly is a calling and a love...for most career guys.

Volunteers I admire because they spend countless hours of their personal time training, maintaining equipment, and drop whatever they are doing to respond to calls. I can't imagine doing all this for free, and I give them a lot of credit. They do this in addition to a full time job. I understand the love and respect volunteers have for their departments, and I could understand many of them would be lost without it (When I was a volunteer, I felt the same way) Many of us came from volunteer roots.

However, there are two sides to the issue. Whereas if you are a Paramedic, volunteer or career, you have to meet the same standards to keep your credentials. There are two seperate sets of standards for volunteers and career firefighters- if a firefighter is the same volunteer or career- why can't we all meet the same set of standards? Career firefighters have to go through a rigourous, long, and involved process to earn their roles, and risk getting fired if they screw up. Leadership is the same way....a career officer is determined and governed by a totally different set of standards then a volunteer officer. I think that is one of the big issues. What is the reason why we can't all be on the same level? Some of the issues I hear is that because if volunteers were to be held to the same level as career, that you would lose a lot of volunteers. That doesn't make any sense...being a firefighter is a profession, and anyone who wants to be one should be held to the SAME standard regardless, since it's the same job regardless if you get a paycheck or not....especially if you want to make claims that we are all the same. NO EXCUSE in my mind that the two levels should be any different.

Sure, we can both fight fires, and both have gotten training......but here's an example. Why does a career firefighter have to pass CPAT, and a volunteer doesn't? Why does a career firefighter have to retire at 62, but a volunteer doesn't?

And when I refer to the word "Profession", it means your paying occupation. Yes, you can act professional, but a professional is someone who does something for a living, generally. We're not just "paid guys", we are career firefighters......this is what we do for a living. Say you worked for DPW, and got paid to plow snow and its something you do every day and work hard at it, and then a bunch of guys from the community come down and do your job for free, and they aren't held to the same standard as you are. Yet they call themselves "Professionals" too. This is how I earn my living and put a roof over my head.

Another issue I see is that career firefighters don't want to take volunteers away, or don't want more jobs to "boost their local", they just don't want to see moves like hiring paid janitors to staff volunteer departments, circumventing hiring processes and essentially robbing the people who take these jobs of benefits and protection that should be theres. These people who take these jobs are being taken for a ride. These moves are often made by volunteer departments who are afraid that going career would "take them over"....but what is not understood is that if they are looking out for the best for the community, what is the problem? If you hire a proper career firefighter staff weekdays between 7AM-7PM to have proper daytime manpower, then what are you...excuse me....then what is the community losing by that? Aren't you embarrased that your department has to retone for manpower for a routine alarm? Doesn't that scream something wrong to you? And if you could give the qualified younger members of your department good paying, secure jobs in their hometown, why rob them of that oppurtunity? Do they want the job, or do they want the hangout?

Also, taxpayer funded incentives to recruit and retain volunteers need to be studided hard and looked at to see if they are the proper long term solutions. Our tax money shouldn't be used to put temporary fixes on things and ignore the long term solution. We need to study where the fire service is going in this county....the young guys who live with their parents now and are active in their departments...how long are they good for? Is having 22 year old officers with no experience good? Same goes for the older guys.

It's not my feeling that "Oh, they're doing my job for free". That is not the point.

Both sides struggle with staffing. Career with proper manning levels, and volunteers usually with daytime coverage. I also notice an increasing amount of youth staffing volunteer departments, and a lot of older members, with not a whole lot inbetween. On the volunteer side as well, there's often an inconsistent response....you never know what you are getting exactly training and ability wise.

Career Firefighters, many of us, want to maintain our job as professional, and look good to the community. I've heard of booze fueled incidents in different area volunteer FD's over the past couple of months that have been totally brushed aside, and other wild behavior where the firehouse is used as a social club. That's another thing- if you want to be a firefighter, fine. But a firehouse is not a place to consume alcohol. This is something that has the potential to make us all look bad. The whole volunteer and social club in one thing needs to end...that is not professional and invites problems.

The union part is something many people think is the root of the evil. But the union's doing what the union is supposed to do....looking out for it's members best interests, and fighting for that. If you look at it, unions really fight for things that are needed by their departments, memebrs, and communities.

There is much tension to this issue, but why I do not understand. There's politics and conterversy everywhere in every business, but anyone who participates in anti-career or anti-volunteer behavior is frankly an idiot. Those who truly want the best for their community take the right actions. People who want to hold grudges or hate one side or the other are often ignorant or have inflated egos., and really don't have any interest besides a conflict.

And to those who like to get defensive, and use the tired lines such as "they forgot where they came from". That's complete BS. I came from volunteer ranks, and ALWAYS wanted to be a career firefighter. I always wanted the best for my department and community. I forgot nothing....becoming a career firefighter was always my aspiration. Stop using that played out cliche'

I agree that not every department is going to be career, nor is it right for every community, and I don't think that anyone thinks that Westchester should or could be 100% career, but every department and every firefighter should be held to the SAME standard and same response times if you want to be called a firefighter. Combinations departments do work...it's tricky, but it can be done. It's my feeling that initiatives by the county would help tremendously, but thats another subject for another day.

So, in closing....career firefighters aren't evil. They go to work, do their job, and just like volunteers, want the best for themselves and their communities. Many of us...volunteer and career want to be more progressive, whilst it seems many want to just maintain status quo, or put on bandaids on things- and there are only a select few holding us back from where we need to be. We have a whole lot of problems in this county, and this is one of many...yet it seems things never change.

I hope we can have a constructive conversation about this. This is not a rant, rather I just want to open up about these issues that are discussed by many in different circles, and see what your view on these issues are...and where you see the future going....and most importantly....can both sides ever find a way to work together to better the fire service, and drop the anymosity?

Edited December 14, 2006 by x635

[Chief2573 0]

Well said! I to come from both sides of the fence.

[DOC22 1]

OK, First off, there may well always be some competition/conflict between career and volunteer. Yes, in a "perfect" world, all civil services would be provided by Government, with the personnel performing the work paid by said Government, for their services. BUT there is one thing that nobody seems to think about. We are living in a time when people have difficulty living on what they are maknig\ng in their employment, no matter what it may be. There are a hell of a lot of people out there forced to work two jobs or both parents have to work to support the families that they cannot spend the time they should with. Add to this the ever-increasing property tax burden, with most toens utilizing volunteer fire ans ems services. People can't afford the taxes now. So as so many career guys feel vollies are "taking jobs awaymfrom them". At least once a week, on my way in or out of my developement, i see another house for sale. Now with all that babble, the point here being, that with taxes what they are (and ever increasing) in these towns with all volunteer fire and ems protection, people have enough trouble, how would they afford to support a totally paid career squad? Answer is they can't. So as nice as it would be to have every city,county, town and village protected by career people, it ain't gonna happen. Again, taxes are too high, already!

[x635 4,066]

Answer is they can't. So as nice as it would be to have every city,county, town and village protected by career people, it ain't gonna happen. Again, taxes are too high, already!

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Read my comment. I'm not saying EVERY community needs a career department, but there are some that do. There are many other areas other areas of the country that aren't nearly as wealthy as Westchester, have lower taxes, and career FDs. Yes, rural areas can't justify career, but if you're a former rural area that is now protecting multi-million dollar homes and businesses like many in Westchester and the area, are you still the same community you were back in 1950 when you were a thriving volunteer company?

I completly disagree. We're going to risk OUR lives and peoples lives and property because property taxes are too high, yet continue to funnel crazy amounts of money into our parks, and other pork-barrel projects.

We can justify paying for sanitaition workers, paying for police officers, paying for duplicate resources in our communites, such as multiple TL's and Engines in a small radius. I think if we all worked together, and politiicans got their priorities straight, we could find a number of ways to cut down on a lot of costs which would drop taxes tremendously.

Why are some people so cheap when it comes down to what could be theirs or their neighbors lives? People who feed the propaganda to their communties that going career would kill their taxes are doing a great disservice to themselves and their communities.

Edited December 14, 2006 by x635

[JohnnyOV 2]

There are two seperate sets of standards for volunteers and career firefighters- if a firefighter is the same volunteer or career- why can't we all meet the same set of standards? Career firefighters have to go through a rigourous, long, and involved process to earn their roles, and risk getting fired if they screw up. Leadership is the same way....a career officer is determined and governed by a totally different set of standards then a volunteer officer. I think that is one of the big issues. What is the reason why we can't all be on the same level? Some of the issues I hear is that because if volunteers were to be held to the same level as career, that you would lose a lot of volunteers. That doesn't make any sense...being a firefighter is a profession, and anyone who wants to be one should be held to the SAME standard regardless, since it's the same job regardless if you get a paycheck or not....especially if you want to make claims that we are all the same. NO EXCUSE in my mind that the two levels should be any different.

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And in many places they are. I have been volunteering in Volusia County Fire Services in FL for 2 1/2 year now...and I still havent responded to a single call...why you ask? I have one class, EMS/Fire report writing, out of 13 or so that I have not compleated because it keeps getting cancelled. VCFS requires that all volunteers and career firefighters be held to the same exact standards...no more, no less. This is true with combo departments all around FL.

I have spent countless weekends, nights, a school day here and there, a few social gatherings, ect ect to compleate these 13 classes, some which I have already taken. The reason they make me take them over again is standarsization throughout the entire department. They want everyone on the same page, regardless of where they came from.

[Guest]

To tell you the truth, I've been volunteering for a long time. It's a lifestyle for me. It's where all my friends are. I would have no life if it wasn't for my department. I enjoy helping my neighbors. If that was taken away from me, I would be devasatetd. I don't want some paid guys coming in and ruining something thats been working fine for 100 years. Sure, we have trouble like everybody else but we are dedicated and can still put out the fire same as the career guy can. What does it matter if he has CPAT or no?

[DOC22 1]

Read my comment. I'm not saying EVERY community needs a career department, but there are some that do. There are many other areas other areas of the country that aren't nearly as wealthy as Westchester, have lower taxes, and career FDs. Yes, rural areas can't justify career, but if you're a former rural area that is now protecting multi-million dollar homes and businesses like many in Westchester and the area, are you still the same community you were back in 1950 when you were a thriving volunteer company?

I completly disagree.  We're going to risk OUR lives and peoples lives and property because property taxes are too high, yet continue to funnel crazy amounts of money into our parks, and other pork-barrel projects.

We can justify paying for sanitaition workers, paying for police officers, paying for duplicate resources in our communites, such as multiple TL's and Engines in a small radius. I think if we all worked together, and politiicans got their priorities straight, we could find a number of ways to cut down on a lot of costs which would drop taxes tremendously. 

Why are some people so cheap when it comes down to what could be theirs or their neighbors lives? People who feed the propaganda to their communties that going career would kill their taxes are doing a great disservice to themselves and their communities.

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First of all I wasn't necessarily aiming this at you! I've seen poosts on here that imply this. Also, unfortuantely, I do not recall what the figures were, but several years ago, one of our Fire Commissioners did a study and figured out what it would cost the district to have just 2 full time paid personnel 24/7. As I said, I don't remember the exact numbers, but they were staggering! The real bottom line is polotics. When you talk about pork barrel spending. If you can straighten that one out, i would be forced to think you have supernatural powers. Sure you may find some areas of the country where career services don't cost that much, but then again neither does anything else. Ya realle can't compare Westchester to those small towns and cities elsewhere in the country. 2 different costs of living.

[firecapt32 282]

x as usual you are on top of a touchy subject. this has bee hasded rehased over and over again.You know my position

look at some facts

Career-- have to take a entrance test Vol-no test- usual vote of

score/ pass physical mebers

Career-- minium 229 hour of training vol- ff1 to be interior78hr

career---100 inservce hours minium vol--osha refresher

career--test for all promotion vol elected by department

the list goes on and on,

yes there are a lot of volunteer firefighters that have the trainig not questioniing that. A whole lot of very good volunteers.

I better stop here befor i ramble a little too long--lets just say "training is good--certified training is better"

it's a big sand box we should all be able to play in it safety togeather.

happy hloiday to all and to all a good new year

[Guest]

Sorry, but like the NY Times, your report has a slant.

[x635 4,066]

Sorry, but like the NY Times, your report has a slant.

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It's not a report, it's my opinion. My view on things from what I have seen.

Instead of that comment, why not contribute to this discussion if you think it is slanted?

BTW, I'm aware not every volunteer wants to be career.

[Guest WolfEMT]

My attitude is, money is irrelevant. We're all on the same side.

[mfc2257 464]

I hear a lot of "caring" (sometimes confused with "complaining") on this EMTBRAVO about standards, actions, policies, SOP's, SOG's, me vs. you, etc. It's not just career vs. volunteer it's everything we discuss. Mutual aid, apparatus duplicity, standardization of equipment and practices, and just about everything else on this board and the hundreds of others like it around the nation.

What I don't hear a lot of is taking this "caring" emotion turned into suggestions and following through with solutions.

The status quo is maintained for decades because none of this stuff ever goes past the "caring" stage.

I’ve said it many times before on this site and here it comes again: Until Westchester County as well as all the career and/or volunteer departments within it recognize the need for true leadership at the DES level then it’s never going to get anywhere. I’m sick to my stomach when people say “well we can’t have a county department because of some NYS law from decades ago”. Well guess what, just giving up because you can’t officially have a county department doesn’t cut it for the protection of citizens.

The powers that be with Westchester and WCDES need to be pressured by each and every department in the county for leadership to start creating standards in order for and agency to be recognized as a department by the county. All the egos have to be checked at the door. It means that for the common good that departments that operate very independently with local dispatch have to give up a little control. It means that the city of Mount Vernon’s residents are going to learn some hard truths from the County about the type of risk the City is putting their FF’s and citizens at. It means that some of the departments with tower ladders in Mount Pleasant might need to be forced into buying a straight stick the next time around, it means that the county should say “no more mobile cascade units” it means that my boyz in Millwood might have to swallow a tough nut and downsize…. It means that everyone needs to take a look at what they are REALLY doing.

If there is a big issue like the disparity in training across the county, put together a committee of volunteer and career representatives who are highly trained and lobby the DES to create stricter standards. Force departments to do a census on its active members and what their level of certification is. My bet is that the numbers are going to be ugly. Use this information to help direct funds towards training programs designed at meeting volunteers schedules. Use this information also to send a hard message to departments who aren’t providing adequate trained staffing. Getting a ladder from XYZ vollie department with 6 guys of which 2 have truck ops and can operate on a roof doesn’t help the IC who called for it. Same with getting a career ladder with a chauffer and only two FF’s who can’t perform all the jobs necessary due to lack of manpower. The county needs to recognize this and NOT allow these units to be dispatched to fill this role.

AGAIN… get together and lobby the county to give you the tools, standards, and guidance needed. Without central guidance you are going to remain stuck in the mud forever.

As individuals who write on this board you have very little control. As a group of organized FF’s who want there to be a standard you have limitless power to influence county and local government to provide the safest and most efficient structure possible.

[Guest]

It's not a report, it's my opinion. My view on things from what I have seen.

Instead of that comment, why not contribute to this discussion if you think it is slanted?

BTW, I'm aware not every volunteer wants to be career.

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Fair enough. The slant, and sometimes and offensive one, comes from the underlying current. The answer to troubles in an agency is not simply to hire more staff and that's the clearest message that comes from your arguement. I very much want to be a career firefighter. That comes from a desire to be as busy as possible and there are no volunteer fire departments that fit that bill.

As for training, trust me, few things are more frustrating than some over the hill out of shape guy, who took essentials 20 years ago, trying to tell me what to do. It's B.S. that he is allowed to continue to be active. That goes for both sides of the "job", however.

[HFD750 6]

who really cares? What's all the fuss? Your a paid firefighter good for you,be safe.

Your a volunteer firefighter good for you,be safe.

Point is both LOVE what they do. Take pride in it no matter paid or volunteer...

WORK TOGETHER WIN TOGETHER!!! nuff said.

[Guest]

who really cares? What's all the fuss? Your a paid firefighter good for you,be safe.

Your a volunteer firefighter good for you,be safe.

Point is both LOVE what they do. Take pride in it no matter paid or volunteer...

WORK TOGETHER WIN TOGETHER!!!  nuff said.

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Thats the best answer there is.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Im going to quote myself from the IAFF sticker thread...just because I now feel this post suits this thread a little better..

Brotherhood...

–noun 1. the condition or quality of being a brother or brothers.

2. the quality of being brotherly; fellowship.

3. a fraternal or trade organization.

4. all those engaged in a particular trade or profession or sharing a common interest or quality.

5. the belief that all people should act with warmth and equality toward one another, regardless of differences in race, creed, nationality, etc.

Gentilemen and ladies, we are all brothers and sisters of the fire service - paid, volly, aux, fire support, fire police ect. ect.. We all share one common goal, and that is to protect the citizens of the towns that we work for regardless of our "status." How could we let something as simple as a sticker, with the UNIVERSIAL logo of the fire deparment, tear us apart? I am a true believer in brotherhood in the fire department, regardless of paid or not...It is a job no matter how you look at it and if you are in it for a hobby, pick up women, look cool, ect ect, get the hell out and fly model airplanes. I am a volunteer fire fighter (paid and volly EMS) with aspirations to become a career firefighter once day, but I will not seperate myself once I do. Segregation should not be tolerated. Period. I will always honor my roots as a volunteer, and (knock on wood) trunk as a career fire fighter.

Plain and simple, the bickering back and forth on a daily level between career and volunteers needs to stop. We are all in this together. Sure, there are vast differences between the life of a career firefighter and a volunteer, but the goals are the same and we are ALL professionals (sure each group has its bad apples, but they are delt with). If we let something as little as a sticker (forgetting the whole placeing it on your vehical if your not in the union controversy) come between us, whos not to say something bigger will come between us at the scene of a fire?

We all need to step back and look at the big picture. What is really importaint here, having a sticker on your car to "represent who you are" (yes I have a star of life on the back of my car), or provideing a service to our commuinity? If you go with the eariler of the two....go get another hobby

[Monty 35]

.........

Another issue I see is that career firefighters don't want to take volunteers away, or don't want more jobs to "boost their local", they just don't want to see moves like hiring paid janitors to staff volunteer departments, circumventing hiring processes and essentially robbing the people who take these jobs of benefits and protection that should be theres. These people who take these jobs are being taken for a ride. These moves are often made by volunteer departments who are afraid that going career would "take them over"....but what is not understood is that if they are looking out for the best for the community, what is the problem? If you hire a proper career firefighter staff weekdays between 7AM-7PM to have proper daytime manpower, then what are you...excuse me....then what is the community losing by that?

.......

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My old department upstate went through this about 8 years ago. We didn't have enough runs to justify firefighters (~700/yr) but response during the day was low. Additionally, people weren't volunteering as much as years ago due to different lifestyles. So, an administrator, mechanic and custodian were hired. Part of the requirement required being a member of a fire department so that they could respond (if they wanted). However, there main duties are not fire-fighting - there can be several days with no fire calls. Also, if there are regular members in house, then these guys are last to get on the truck, if at all.

Now, on the other hand, having a County department seems to make a lot of sense - but it's so progressive I know there are places doing it but .... Reading some of the responses, I understand cykal's comment, whether the community is getting the best service is another question. Maybe, maybe not for the taxes they're paying, the fire responses the jurisdiction has, the response they get.

Also with firecapt32 - he overstates the requirements of some volunteer departments

Remember - keep it clean now

Monty.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Also with firecapt32 - he overstates the requirements of some volunteer departments 

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I can attest to this comment...A buddies department in a neighboring state, does not even require them to take FF 1 to become an interior FF. They just have to go through the in house training.

[CTFF 65]

Honestly this entire issue career/vollie issue is the Hatfields and the Mccoys. It has been fought for so long it just seems like the right thing to do.

[ems731 0]

In my personal opinion, I have np porblem with career firefighters and career ems AS LONG AS there is still a spot for volunteers. I began volunteering on an ambulance 3 1/2 yrs ago. In that time I have changed alot. I began when I was only 16 yrs old. It helped me mature, before I began volunteering I had no motivation with anything and had no real work ethic and was a slacker in school. Volunteering on the ambulance has given me a hard work ethic and helped me mature very much. I know it sounds corny but it helped make me who I am today and is still changing me. I has taught me very important life skills like working as a team. I have also seen this change in my brother who has only been volunteering for 1/2 yr.

In my opinion I see no difference between volunteers and career, they both are doing what they love to do.

I think that volunteers are an important part of each community and that every community should make an effort to keep there departments opened to volunteers.

[x635 4,066]

People who want to preach "brotherhood" and "pride", that's fine. The pride is there, the brotherhood is there, nobody is really arguing that nor am I, regardless, but the fact is there are issues that need to be nipped in the butt before they become worse then they already are. We can't pretend everythings fine and dandy, and just react to problems as they come up. We need to have foresight, we need to start getting our newest generation of firefighters on board- the culture needs to change.

This is about public safety. Next time your hear a department retone for manpower, or put out second tones for an ambulance crew...think to yourself what it must be like for that person waiting for that ambulance or fire engine to arrive. "Brotherhood" and "Pride" mean NOTHING if we don't do our jobs efficiently, effectively, and safely....and most importantly- if we don't work together...we all are going to lose in the long run. If we continue to ignore these problems, we are going to get nowehere.

I'm sick of the tension on both sides, and the significant differences between both sides. Both sides have issues that need addressing.

We ALL need to start banding together and fighting the politics, traditions, and bueracy that plagues the fire service.

Volunteers exists, and will so for a long time, so career firefighters need to find a way deal with that. As far as volunteers, they need to reconize and adress when their current manpower system is failing. Both sides need to find a way to work with each other to be on the same page.

Edited December 14, 2006 by x635

[mfc2257 464]

We know the issues.... The way to get something out of this thread is to start working on solutions.

A volunteer's pride won't solve a lack of training any more than a career FF's paycheck solves the fact that there are union Trucks, Engines, and Rescues rolling around Lower Westchester with only a driver and FF on board.

SO:

How does Mount Vernon get rigs that work with enough guys to get the job done safely (I know they get the job done.... focus on the word SAFELY)

How do volunteer departments in Central & Northern Westchester start operating with a level of training that is uniform, enforced, and at a level approaching that of a career FF (leave the time on the job componant out of it stick to a level of certification first.)

There are plenty of people on this board who can start pressuring the county and the County Chief's Association for change. You just have to get together and and start the process. You may not get the solution that you WANT but if you can move the needle toward better FF and civilian safety it will be a small victory. Lots of little victorys help to win wars.

Start making suggestions to how to solve the problems that we all know exist based on the millions posts that have been made here.

Volunteers stop worrying about every little thing the paid guys say.

Career FF's stop worring about the fact that Vollies exist and that their world looks different than yours.

Work together to make the best set of standards possible for a county that is decades behind the times.

[shac 7313 0]

First of all I wasn't necessarily aiming this at you! I've seen poosts on here that imply this. Also, unfortuantely, I do not recall what the figures were, but several years ago, one of our Fire Commissioners did a study and figured out what it would cost the district to have just 2 full time paid personnel 24/7. As I said, I don't remember the exact numbers, but they were staggering!  The real bottom line is polotics. When you talk about pork barrel spending. If you can straighten that one out,  i would be forced to think you have supernatural powers. Sure you may find some areas of the country where career services don't cost that much, but then again neither does anything else.  Ya realle can't compare Westchester to those small towns and cities elsewhere in the country. 2 different costs of living.

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thats a good thing you sould stop at walter firecapt32.

[maisela 0]

First off, I think that despite the controversy and frustration threads like these stir up, it's an important one to discuss. To all who have posted, it is nice to see a progressive and tolerant mindset. I am certain that attitudes like those expressed here on EMTBravo will help have a positive effect on the career/volunteer situation as a whole. In particular, I hope the youth among us (myself included) can benefit from what is being said.

I have only been in the fire service for 6 years, but being in two departments in different states I have seen that the "bad blood" between career and volunteer firefighters is somewhat blown out of proportion. What I mean by that is most of the nasty accusations and rumors traded across both sides of the aisle are generalized and false. Not all "paid guys" are evil and anti-volunteer. Not all volunteers are undertrained and drunk. Yet these stereotypes still persist. Part of this, like many of you have said, seems to come from the double standard that is held with regards to training hours, etc.

I agree that it has to be rectified. But I also think that career and volunteer departments need to step up to the plate and start to foster the idea that we are doing the SAME JOB. There are plenty of departments in Westchester that refuse to call their neighbors for mutual aid simply because they are career or volunteer (or some petty grudge is held between the two). In my opinion, this is the stupidest decision a department can make. I want to see a world where career departments are holding regularly scheduled drills with volunteer ones. We've created a sense of community between the two camps here on EMTBravo. It's time we get it done in the real world.

<Steps off soapbox>

[IzzyEng4 427]

Face it all, we as firefighters are our own worst enemies when it comes do to it. We will argue about everything and the kitchen sink. I personally know volunteers that despise career guys and blames everyone but themselves for not being able to get onto the job or pass a test. And career guys that can't stand volunteers for what ever reason or forgot where they came from when they were volunteers.

But in actuality, just like the number of people in this country who talk big and no one stands up to them, the small number of our brothers and sisters on both sides are the ones who make the big stink and WE the silent majority allow it.

Yes standards have to be the same all around but from department to department and paid vs. vollie, they area not. Really take a look at all the training out their and what is required for a standard firefighter. Really only Firefighter I, HazMat Awareness / Operations and Bloodborn pathogens is really a firefighter needs (I live in a OSHA State) Now when it comes to other services, does your department handle rescues to along with firefighting, then you need to add in Firefighter II, extrication class, high angle / rope / confined space rescue as well. What about medical? If you department is a first responder or operates an ambulance corps, now you have to aid CPR / First aid and be certified a MRT or EMT, at least you should be at least an MRT if your not a wagon rider. A minimum standard must be set for all firefighters due to the hazardous out their today and the sue craziness of the times.

But who sets these standards for each department? Who ever is in charge, and the problem lies with the level of involvement. I know of career departments just like volunteer, that just want to fight fires and thats all they do. Hard to believe huh? But this example of attitude is what causes friction and problems. When we show up in out black or tan gear on the bight red, white or yellow fire truck, you really think a person thinks if we area paid or career? Heck no. I've done a standby as a volunteer in a paid town when they were operating at a large fire. I responded in this paid town to other alarms, covering the town and was appreciated that we came to protect the town while their fire department was operating at this fire. Myself, I worked side by side with fellow area volunteers at a large fire in my town and I was working with career FF's from several cities working side by side and I being an officer at the time was put in charge of the section they were working in, did they care I was a volunteer, no, do I care if they were paid, no.

Some day If I do make it onto a career force, I'll never forget where I came from but also feel honored that I did chose a career as a firefighter and I will still feel the same way as I do now.

[Guest]

Being a retired career FF, I do see the tensions between the two, and I even know a couple of career firefighters who despise voly's, but dont admit it simply cause they dont want to get into arguments....as many of you said, I am also on both sides of the fence. Believe me, I'm not here to start tensions or arguments, but I have personally had my share with some volunteers that have truthfully given me a bad taste for them , and obviously I dont mean all of them! No matter where you look, you will always have the good and bad guys on both sides! But my problems werent ENTIRELY on the training aspects, although that was a factor, but moreso, it was on the attitudes some of them gave out to me and some other fellow career guys, past and present (All union matter excluded). I think thats a huge issue that alot of paid guys have ( and i'm only speaking for the ones I know of) is that they dont enjoy the fact of being "compared" as a guy who comes home from a 24, fighting some good/bad jobs to guy who picks and chooses his calls, if they even get any that day (and again, not stereostyping, just speaking from SOME of my experiences).

some of you have said it before, and i'll say it again, YES fire burns the SH$# out of anyone, paid or voly, and a rescue is rescue whether its in city streets or farm fields, BUT, again the issue to some is the frequency of runs which in the end brings in knowledge and experience. Even in this day, I have met some voly's (including 16-18 yr. probies!!!) who go around wearing the tshirts, decking their trucks out and talking like they know and seen everything after only completing maybe one course (and thats assuming that went to every class).

I'm sure alot of you probably cringe and what I'm saying, and I apologize for that, but unfortunately, no matter what anybody say or preaches on this site or any other, there will always be that tension, that feud, and it is unfortunate, but some have to understand why that feud exists and realize that there are differences in both worlds. Nevertheless, again, voly or paid, its a dangerous job where all of us could get hurt, so stay safe out there, and happy holidays.

[DOC22 1]

Volunteers stop worrying about every little thing the paid guys say.

Career FF's stop worring about the fact that Vollies exist and that their world looks different than yours.

Work together to make the best set of standards possible for a county that is decades behind the times.

mfc you said it all! It's time for the bitching and moaning to stop! I understand that there are problems with training and coverage in some areas. But let's start at least trying to live by our own motto: Work together----Win Together! Career or volly, our responsibility is to serve and protect the public. I'll tell you this, training has come a long way since I joined in 1963. But let's face it, there is still a lot more to be done.

[ex-commish 490]

I am glad to see some objective comments and not bashing. I am a 27 year volunteer and am very disgusted with how the volunteer system has become in some respects. We do need a more standardized form of both basic and in-service training. Unfortunately for us the standard is voluntary and while the powers to be in our system think they are doing us a favor by making things easy they are not by any means. For starters, do away with the election process of officers. It is terrible. I have seen in my own dept where people not capable of the position get the job because they were popular or the other candidate was not liked.

The same goes for taking people in. A thorough background screening which includes drug testing, criminal checks, etc is a must. The arson check isnt enough. I also am in favor of some sort of agility like CPAT. Why not????

As a former chief who fought hard for rerform I can tell you we are still buried in tradition that is someday going to kill someone. Lets work towards it?

And for the cowards who in the past who copied my post here and attached it to an anonymous letter sent to some elected officials ( i know who you are) if you choose to do so again at least make sure what I post here jives with what you write.

[Guest]

Volunteer vs paid lol

my dept. has allot of paid guys paid or not your still a firefighter

i get allot of comments about volunteers but i just deal with it.

[firefighter36 52]

x635, Right on. I think that the one thing that differentiates most carrer and volunteer agencies are levels of training, enforcement of said levels, and last but not least the testing (academic and physical.)

In no way am I against volunteer firefighters. I was one, and would gladly be one again if I was not forturnate enough to make this a career. I think that a lot of tension is created through policy and how it is created and enforced in different departments. All of my volunteer experience comes from two different combination agencies in two different states, each one set up differently.

The main thing I have seen reverts back to training. First and foremost, both places require FF I, FAST, Survival, Haz-Mat Ops, or some equivelent to be interior. For career guys, it is obviously the 229, or a career academy, as well as EMT, or Paramedic for EMS. This is the most important thing, a large base of knowledge and training is what sets the pace for how a firefighter will perform for real. We all know that we revert to training under stress.

Continuting training for career members is much more organized and documented, as it is required. In both departments, the same exact training is freely offered to volunteer members and various times, and it is their responsibility to attend. This is great, as it allows us to have the same continuing education, and allows us to train together. There are some people who don't attend, and it is kind of hard for these people to keep up with the operations going on when on a scene, and it shows.

I think turning a blind eye to physical fitness, education, and training, simply put comes from a sense of complacency. That can be a lethal mistake. The OFPC doesn't have a set standard, and NY is behind many other states in having set standards for all firefighters. For the most part, the academy seems to cater to more rural departments. One thing I find particularly frustrating is that there isn't a whole lot of hands-on firefighting class beyond the basic FF1 or recruit academy.

Without being long-winded, policy. NY is still behind the times. Organizations such as FASNY, while noble in their cause are largely finded by 2% money that is supposed to be benefiting ALL firefighters, not just volunteer firefighters. FASNY, from what I have seen is nothing more than a propaganda machine that touts tradition and complacency as a way to save taxpayer dollars. It kills me to go to Albany to talk with politicians who aren't even aware that there are career firefighters in NY, who won't support decent political policy (i.e. special districts in NY state) to provide better fire and EMS service to citizens, purely because FASNY's lobbyists told them that it isn't a good idea. (yes, I was told this by a NY State Rep) This, to me, is just a bad management tactic used by FASNY and politicians to create animosity from both sides.

As for a paid/volunteer battle, I have noticed that tha majority of the bad blood is propegated by people with poor attitudes who discredit themselves with mindless comments meant to crank people up. I also notice that the majority of this sentiment come from people who lack proper interior credentials, could not pass a hiring test, or are under the age of 19. Consider the source.

I work alongside a great group of volunteers. I am proud of where I came from, and I'm proud to have the best job in the world! I hope that as time goes on, they get the opportunity to be career firefighters as well. They aren't there to take my job, and I'm not there to mock them come payday. What matters to me is that my fellow career members, who operate understaffed, have QUALIFIED volunteers resonding with us or on their way to alarms as backup. I don't care who gets a paycheck when we go home, just that we all do our job, and that WE ALL GO HOME.