Union firefighters doing non union work

[lad12derff 283]

While we are hot on the IAFF topic I want to hear from the other union workers about how they feel towards union firefighters doing non union work I.E. electricians, plumbers,painters ect...I am just curious of their views

[jloftus 28]

Tough subject, we all want to provide for our famalies, I think as long as your on site and not takiing away from others its okay.

Almost like volys vs paid , are they taking jobs we can fill , most of the time I dont think so.

Gonna be both sides of the fence on this one, everybody right, everybody wrong. Important point is , is a American doing the job.

Edited December 13, 2006 by jloftus

[DOC22 1]

Tough subject, we all want to provide for our famalies, I think as long as your on site and not takiing away from others its okay.

Almost like volys vs paid , are they taking jobs we can fill , most of the time I dont think so.

Gonna be both sides of the fence on this one, everybody right, everybody wrong. Important point is , is a American doing the job.

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jloftus, you just said a whole lot in but a few words. AMEN, BRO!!!!!!!!!!

[jd783 64]

I'm a union FF and a Union electrician I do not work as a union electrician anymore

because I cannot be on the jobsite a full week, do not bash the union guys who work on their own most of them have to in order to afford to live around here. Now I know a volly who is going to say (see I told you, they preach unionism and work non union on their days off) This is how I feel towards the Vol fire service, On my days off maybe I can come and take your job for free I do really good electrical,carpentry and plumbing work.

[Guest]

The, "how would you like it if I came and did your job for free" line is wearing a little thin. You wanna come do my job for free? Go ahead.

In most cases, if you're a career firefighter, you have a job because someone can't do it for free. I don't think anyone really has to worry about job security, certainly not from a volunteer.

As for being an IAFF member and working a craft job as a non-union worker is fine. Everyone's gotta earn a living and we all know that FF's are frequently not paid enough. However, ginving non-union personel a hard time in the firehouse and then doing non-union craft work outside the firehouse is hypocritical.

Come on, there is a place for everyone, in every field and every form of labor relations.

And yes make sure that legal citizens are getting jobs!!

Good point JLOFTUS.

Edited December 13, 2006 by lfdR1

[RichC 0]

I'm a union FF and a Union electrician I do not work as a union electrician anymore

because I cannot be on the jobsite a full week, do not bash the union guys who work on their own most of them have to in order to afford to live around here. Now I know a volly who is going to say (see I told you, they preach unionism and work non union on their days off) This is how I feel towards the Vol fire service, On my days off maybe I can come and take your job for free I do really good electrical,carpentry and plumbing work.

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And this is how I feel about you coming into my job and doing it for free, I am not the one who entered a line of work where 75% of those already there are volunteers.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This really is a non-debate. Its one all of us have heard at one time or another about side work being non-union.

There is a simple fix to this problem that I once heard a co-worker tell a union official from his trade that he was in the union for:

When the union steps up and tells people to stop volunteering in combination departments with union firefighters I will come back.

And as far as saying "I didn't take a job where its already 75% volunteer, I wouldn't take half the training you had to do, pick and choose what jobs I'm gonna do and when I'm gonna get up and do it and cry that I should be called a professional at it, either.

Fact is, career or volunteer, fire can kill your a$$. There will always be tension, from those whom want to say we are all a team, but can't work together or get over themselves to work together for what is best for the community. On both sides of the fence.

Edited December 13, 2006 by alsfirefighter

[Guest]

ALS, don't let one guys comment taint the whole lot.

There are plenty of volunteers who have the same training and don't pick and choose jobs so that they know that they conduct themselves as professionals.

Taking essentials and other classes, or going through the academy 25 years ago doesn't count. Gotta keep training.

ALS likes to teach and would like them to keep having classes

Edited December 13, 2006 by lfdR1

[FDNYDCHI 38]

As a union member (not IAFF, NYC local 375) I don't see a problem with having a side job. As long as your side job doesn't take over your main job. For example you can't work this tour because of your side job. Your Main job is what counts, where you have your benifits and so on. Just my 2 cents.

[Remember585 815]

As a union member (not IAFF, NYC local 375) I don't see a problem with having a side job. As long as your side job doesn't take over your main job. For example you can't work this tour because of your side job.  Your Main job is what counts, where you have your benifits and so on. Just my 2 cents.

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WELL SAID! What people do in their free time should be their own business. How can you tell a Firefighter that doesn't make enough money that working a side job isn't allowed? Further - why can't a paid Firefighter who, 95% of the time, has more experience and training then most volunteers, be a member of the department where they live? Most of you Paid guys have a lot to offer us in the Volunteer world. And hey, we aren't taking your jobs - we're just doing our best to provide for our communities - like, in many cases, our ancestors did. I would never jump in and do something if I was taking away from someone's bread & butter, because that's not what I (and those in my Department) are about.

[bob803 1]

This is always a topic of contention but here is another spin on it. How about belonging to 2 professions/Unions and when they are ready to lay people off. How many FF step up and say hey brother this is you main income I will get laid off rather than you. Something to think about?????

[STAT213 332]

WELL SAID!  What people do in their free time should be their own business.  How can you tell a Firefighter that doesn't make enough money that working a side job isn't allowed?  Further - why can't a paid Firefighter who, 95% of the time, has more experience and training then most volunteers, be a member of the department where they live?  Most of you Paid guys have a lot to offer us in the Volunteer world.  And hey, we aren't taking your jobs - we're just doing our best to provide for our communities - like, in many cases, our ancestors did.  I would never jump in and do something if I was taking away from someone's bread & butter, because that's not what I (and those in my Department) are about.

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585, Like many of the times in Westcom, I am once again forced to show you the light. Here's the deal. You ARE taking jobs away from my future union brothers. The existence of the volunteer firefighting service means two things - less guys getting paid to be firefighters and more importantly, less guys paying dues to the international. As long as you continue to volunteer in your community, the town fathers are able to get away with not paying someone to do the job. It really is that simple.

From what I can understand, that is my take on the international's stand on this issue. (Let it be known, I am no IAFF spokesman) Its about money. They don't want me volunteering because it sends the wrong message - its okay to have departments out there not bringing money to the international. Look - there is a union brother doing just that so it must be ok.

It goes even further, though. We are facing this issue currently in my fine state. There is a hospital with a paramedic fly car service who uses per diem medics like just about every other service. Many of my union bretheren work there on their days off. Trouble is, one of the towns wants to go to the paramedic level - well the firefighters do anyway. Town points out that they currently get this service for much cheaper from the hospital, why would the town pay to increase service. Now the town not wanting to is a whole 'nuther issue for another day. But, do you see where this is headed? FD Union from said department honchos complain to the state association and a letter comes out, phone calls are made first asking, then telling the boys who work per diem that they need to quit or they could face charges, be expelled, yada yada yada. That is how far this gets taken by the international. It is about money and jobs plain and simple. Its black and white to them.

I hope you can read between the lines here and see my point of view. I am one guy in a huge organization. I am saying I want all of the volunteers out there to turn in their gear tomorrow? No way!!! That just isn't possible, feasible, reasonable or even a little appropriate. Are there guys in the union who would like that result? Probably. I like a lot of things that the organization does for me. I can see the arguments. Agree with them? Not always.

[27east 19]

While we are hot on the IAFF topic I want to hear from the other union workers about how they feel towards union firefighters doing non union work I.E. electricians, plumbers,painters ect...I am just curious of their views

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lad12derff,

Just wondering, are you referring to construction work, or side jobs like painting a family room or changing an outlet or things like that.

[helicopper 1,050]

While we are hot on the IAFF topic I want to hear from the other union workers about how they feel towards union firefighters doing non union work I.E. electricians, plumbers,painters ect...I am just curious of their views

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Since I read this as working for PAY in a trade (electrican, etc. as listed above) I don't see why we fell back to the tired ol' volly vs. paid FF thing again.

I'm sure if you asked union tradesmen they would say that freelance electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc. ARE taking away jobs/money from union members.

Imagine someone coming into your union served career FD municipality with a fire truck and offering to work as a firefighter for less than the prevailing union wage. Wouldn't he get run out of town? Sure, that's an absurd example but I'm just trying to make a point.

Unfortunately, we all have to earn a living and people will always hire the guy who'll work cheaper than the "other guy" - union or not!

[IzzyEng4 427]

You all know it is a AFL-CIO by-law that you cannot be in two or more unions at the same time????? Even when switching unions while working at the same job?

Also to with the career / volunteer argument that is ALWAYS brought up, remember volunteers are not paid so technically they area not taking paid jobs away. Who here remembers RURAL-METRO huh???? Rural-Metro the business refused to allow at that time a union to represent the workers of their fire departments (and I think they still frown on unions to this day.) And they were trying to take over fire departments (unionized) in this country with what they saw as "better service". I felt bad for those men and women who worked for that company at that time and they were paid less than a grocery clerk at Stop & Shop.

Is an Auxiliary cop, volunteering his / her time helping PD's at scenes blocking traffic taking away a job from a full time cop more than the Supernumerary taking way his / her overtime. What about Certified Fire-Police or traffic control officers?

What about the volunteer EMT in an ambulance corps taking way work and no pay from a full time EMT or the part-timer non union EMT taking the full timer's OT away?

I'm a full time unionized dispatcher, if OT is not offered to me first but to a non-union part timer, then its a big issue with me because it was over stepped. However if a local FD has a radio room and they have volunteer personnel that collect no pay to help out fielding calls and such then its a non issue.

How many Union tradesmen volunteer their time to help causes such as the United Way, Salvation Army or Habit for Humanity for no pay, A great number. How many have a side job a great number too.

Which brings me back to the point of the career / volunteer FD thing. Both side should not have to worry taking each other's work away or being a two hatter. I can understand a career FF not volunteering in the same town / district he / she works in because that is a conflict of interest. As a union person and former rep I am more worried about one thing, MANAGEMENT! That is the root of all problems first and foremost. Hell if a combo department has a 2 alarm or more fire and they have their on duty staff their and all its volunteers, then THE CHIEF BETTER CALL IN THE OTHER 2 or 3 CAREER SHIFTS TO HELP OUT AND PAY THEM THE OT! That is the way it is supposed to be done but as always its easier to blame everyone else and take sides on no issues.

Now this is only part of my devils' advocate argument. Many of you will agree or disagree with my statements and thats OK but for one thing I can say is look at my words and actually start thinking about this and see what answers you will come and theories that will be realized. You'll be amazed.

Take em' or hate em' thats' how I feel things can change if minds and eyes open up an look to the reality out there. Ignorance is bliss and there is a lot of it in out little microcosm of the world.

(PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: If any brain cells were hurt in the reading of this posting, then you really need to get a good stiff drink (21 and over please only). the Writer is not responsible for irreversible brain damage or conspiracy theories. Yes I am shot LOL )

Edited December 14, 2006 by IzzyEng4

[AFS1970 504]

While we are on the topic of hypocrisy, How can any of us sit here and say the IAFF is wrong for telling their members what they can and can't do on their days off, while standing up to declare that it is wrong for those same IAFF members to work at a trade on their days off? It seems to me that if we really are all about personal freedom, then it has to extend all the way. It seems to me that sometimes we try to fight blatant hypocrisy with yet more hypocrisy.

As for being in two unions, I may be wrong, but I remember hearing that in Connecticut you can't be a dues paying member in two unions, regardless of AFL-CIO status. If that is true, then it certainly sheds more than a little light on this situation.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Tough subject, we all want to provide for our famalies, I think as long as your on site and not takiing away from others its okay.

Almost like volys vs paid , are they taking jobs we can fill , most of the time I dont think so.

Gonna be both sides of the fence on this one, everybody right, everybody wrong. Important point is , is a American doing the job.

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we need a :bowdown: smilie for this exact purpose. Well said.

[27east 19]

Tough subject, we all want to provide for our famalies, I think as long as your on site and not takiing away from others its okay.

Almost like volys vs paid , are they taking jobs we can fill , most of the time I dont think so.

Gonna be both sides of the fence on this one, everybody right, everybody wrong. Important point is , is a American doing the job.

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People have to make a living. I don't see anything really wrong with it, side work is side work. If someone needs electrical work done in their house, and the FF who is union can do it cheaper then the local electrican who is union, then that is a free market economy. I can see a problem with large construction jobs, but that's a different story.

And yes, American jobs - American workers.

[antiquefirelt 994]

As a union member (not IAFF, NYC local 375) I don't see a problem with having a side job. As long as your side job doesn't take over your main job. For example you can't work this tour because of your side job.  Your Main job is what counts, where you have your benifits and so on. Just my 2 cents.

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It not about working a side job. Its about your side job taking away another Union job. For example: I'm a union firefighter who complains that volunteers cost union jobs in the firehouse. But oin my days off I work for a local electrician but am not a union electrician.

You can't have it both ways. If your IAFF and going to complain about vollies in combo depts or anywhere then you'd better take an unskilled decond job and let the union brothers have their primary one in the trades.

Or don't b*tch. Being from a combo department that relies on POC personnel, I've been at jobs nearly begging for anyone to show up that could take a few windows to keep the heat off us. I really didn't care if tehy had an IAFF sticker on their helmet or not.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Is there anything in the IAFF bylaws that specifically says volunteers is not allowed? If so can you please show me? I am an union fire fighter, have never seen this though, I always hear a lot of cranky guys say how its a rival organization and blah blah blah...

[robert benz 344]

I have a question? In NY STATE can you hold 2 union cards and work for 2 unions?

ok maybe thats 2 questions

[Guest]

I'm a union FF and a Union electrician I do not work as a union electrician anymore

because I cannot be on the jobsite a full week, do not bash the union guys who work on their own most of them have to in order to afford to live around here. Now I know a volly who is going to say (see I told you, they preach unionism and work non union on their days off) This is how I feel towards the Vol fire service, On my days off maybe I can come and take your job for free I do really good electrical,carpentry and plumbing work.

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See as a volunteer I have no problem that on your day off you can go work as a carpenter, electrician or plumber. Its great that you can do that, since while you at one of those jobs a volunteer is probably volunteering his time taking care of your family and property, and helping keep the taxes down in the area that you struggle to live in and need that side job.

I do not think that what you said about volunteers is what most of us/them think, I think its the exact opposite.

Edited December 17, 2006 by KEG4422

[firecapt32 282]

OHHH I have tried to stay away from this one but I just cant help myself so here goes.

Slightly diferent slant on things putting the burden on career members first. We alway claim we have the hardest job in the world stats will attest to that. we lose over 100 firefighters in any given year, one of the hightest rates ever, our injuries per 100,000 are amoung the highest in the country, our cancer rates are off the scharts, yet we still belong to volunteer companies.

Employers that hire firefighters pay a lot of money for health insurance, retirement,disability insurance, ect. yet they allow career firefighters to belong to volunteer departments, pro players have clauses in their contracts forbiding them to do things.

God forbid a career firefighter comes down with for example lung cancer--- where does he turn to hmmm his union, his department and his doctors. Union position is very clear on the matter, he came on the job, took a physical--took one every year so the lung cancer must have happened "on the job" and job related--- Department pays pretty cut and dry.

Employer says ohhhh wait just a second that firefighter has been a active member of xyz volunuteer company for 20 years it must have come from his duties at that department not here at abc fire department. Sounds like court cases and the winner is the lawyers. Is it important where it happened?? does it mean the difference of a job related disability vs a medical retirement you bet your a** it does.

sorry to be so long on the subject but its not as easy as them vs us or career vs vol

Is any one getting the picture--- our health and safety is the most precseious thing we have, we go out of our way to make sure our municipalities have the best equipment , clothing ect for our members. we try and do a safe job to come home to our families every time we go out.

Volunteer firefighters I just cant figure out how much taxes your saving by being a firefighter. the line about " if we had to pay for a career fire department the taxes would go through the roof" thats a old line and dosent make sence any more.

I know volunteer firefighters have been around since Ben Franklin but its time to look into the future and not be caught in the past, see above statments about dieing.

We all want to protect the citizens in our communities the bast way we can.

[Guest ksneubec]

This is an interesting link that helps people calculate what town's save by using volly FD's vs. Career:

http://www.nvfc.org/news/2004-cost-savings.html

(Thank you to someone on this board for posting this elsewhere)

Of course the source is the national volunteer fire council, not a completely objective organization.

My town of 14,000 people, primarily residential but with a growing industrial/commercial section, saved $6-7 million a year using volly firefighters.

On the other hand, to paraphrase an instructor from WCTC who is both a career and volunteer FD- Most volly firefighters who have no problem if someone wanted to pay them to do their job .

firecapt32- you make some good arguments about your lung cancer example- however- in my town, as a volunteer I have workman's comp too that would cover me in such a case. If I was to contract lung cancer and it could be proven it was through my volunteer activities, they would pay out my disabilty at a rate based on what I make in my career job. You're right, I'm sure there would be a nasty court battle to determine which "job" caused the condition, but I doubt that even if it was a career guy who didn't volunteer, there would still be a fight to prove it was job related, just per the nature of workman's comp.

[firecapt32 282]

lets not forget the revenue that Firefighters bring into a community--fire inspection ect. National fire is certinely a slanted view and yes there are cost no doubt. What does it cost your town for police protection/ highway and sanation plust the school system?is any one jumping to do those---I dont think so.

[Guest]

Sorry, but wasn't this a thread about Union guys doin' non-union work?

What does the cost of vollies have to do with this?

[exmrvfc 0]

Capt,

Your points about cancer are true enough but shouldn't that be a personal decision made by the firefighter? Does the Union/Employer have the right to tell the firefighter he is not allowed to smoke cigarettes? What about firefihgters that are overweight who have a higher chance of being one of the 50 heart attacks each year?

[firecapt32 282]

I might have posted this on the wrong line but you guys are smart enough to figure that out.

exmrvfc you make good points and maybe they should include smoking as a prerequsit for employment.

Career firefighters have to take a physical every year including a pulmanory function test. I agree with you there should be some sort of condition set in contracts maybe a Cpat every year.

make it mandatory for all interior firefighters as part of firefighter 1