Mount Vernon 2nd Alarm 8/9 Discussion

[hudson144 150]

7 stores burning- 2 truck co's working? what about some more trucks ifo the fire buildings? here's something to discuss. do you think they didn't call in more trucks because of the mutual aid flap? 0330 hrs-18 firefighters, 4 officers and a chief working- do you think this is enough? this could be a good one! basic math here-

18 firefighters

- 1 (chiefs aid)

------

17

- 3 (mpo's)

--------

14

- 2 (turntable truck men)

-------

12 firefighters the balance

lets see how we all feel about this!* 2 more mpo's if all engs were pumping- down to 10 men

[ndemarse 0]

I got to this incident rather early to shoot some pictures. I am not an expert on taxpayer fires by any means. It seems as if these guys are SEVERELY undermanned, but didn't call mutual aid to assist them in that problem.

I am new to the area (less than a year) after coming from the Chicago suburbs. I do know what it is like to roll out of the firehouse with only 1 man on the back-step. It just seemed that from my standpoint, which obviously is only a photographer/observer, that there was more to be done than the members could do!

This is the first job that I have been to up there. Is there a "pissing match" (chicago term for political fight) between a couple of departments so they don't call each other? They took care of the whole job with (I think) 4 & 2 and a rescue.

My observations:

A few more BIGGER lines (2 1/2" or stangs)?

Maybe another TL to sweep the front?

Operating exterior lines from the sidewalk/collapse zone?

One other thing? For this part of the country, is an 1 3/4" the preferred outside hand-line? I am not used to this but I have seen it out here a few times. Is this the way it is done?

This is my first post, I am obviously not here to bash ANYONE'S tactics or department. I just am trying to learn the area, departments and maybe pick up a little on tactics myself. Anyone have anything to add?

Nate DeMarse

ndemarse@optonline.net :-k :-k

[HFD23 37]

well here in westchester, our standard attack line for a normal working fire is 1 3/4 inch hand line, we tend to operate 2 1/2's for commerical structure fires with large volumes of fire, or the rule my department works off is 1 window showing fire is a inch and 3/4 hand line, with 3 or more we opt for the biggier 21/2 hand line, judging from what i have heard, with the amount of fire showing and buildings involved, units should have opted for larger streams.. the problem with large master streams is 2 1/2's require more man power to operate the line effectively, thus the limited number of manpower available at this fire as broken down above would be my best guess as to why companies opted for smaller easyer hand lines...

also back gorund is Mt. Vernon had a 5th alarm, about 3 weeks ago whcih required manpower form yonkers, equaling 3 engine 2 trucks, mask service unit and a batt... equaling almost if not more the total number of FDMV members fighting that fiure, also at the change of shift FDMV comissioner sent home his day crew.. this was a major issue with mutual aid companies, thus ongoin arguments of mutal aid abuse, and i believ a reluctency to request mutual aid to the scene, mabe this fire could have be contained with more manpower and equipment, but i amd not specialition mearly answering questions and providing back ground information based on facts..

my next question with both this fire and the previous 5th alarm... what about FAST teams? with only 4 enines 2 trucks and a rescue with 7 stores on fire, whos FAST, how many people are working?

lastly, any one knwo if Greenville of fairview were called this time? if so any reasons why not, they are usually quick to go, what abotu eastchester as well.... and how is this a 3rd alarm with only 4 and 2 working?

[ndemarse 0]

Alright, that answers a few questions for me. Thank you!

I definately understand the manpower issue for 2 1/2" hose.

There might have been more than 4 and 2 working, but that's all that I saw. There were 2 Engines in front (on each corner hydrant), one down the block to the north, one to the south. A TL in front in excellent position, and an aerial near the 1-4 corner.

I heard a FAST Team dispatched, but I didn't see one standing by. That is not to say that they weren't there, I just didn't see it.

Why did they send the day tour home? OT considerations?

[HFD23 37]

all chiefs and departments and comissioners of mutual aid companies who made formal complaints and public protests stated it was because of the OT considerations... but the Comission of FDMV sasy it was so those 16 men could rest up for the next day's day tour, caz they were totally shot...

any other questions, or discussion feel free to e-mail me at Italinstang9@aol.com

[dc2t 80]

The most understaffed fire dept in West. with the work load they carry. Maybe there should be a real Fire Commissioner instead of

a Political Patronage job. does any know a good foot doctor? :twisted:

[Guest DFFD227]

Was this job a 2nd alarm, 3rd alarm, or 4th alarm. Because according to news12 this was a 4th alarm fire. Also, was a city block destroyed like the last job they had last month?

[Truck4 48]

At this point, we know only MVFD units were at scene. A 10-36 (2nd Alarm) would consist of all of MVFD overnight shift, including the additional engine on the transmission of a working fire. New Rochelle to the scene is generally a third alarm. New Rochelle only went in to cover.

As for News 12.........yeah, right.

[DMA327 12]

Truck 4 is correct. I believe that the general alarm in Mount Vernon was only a second alarm.

Again channel 12 news had a little mishap but at least they were there to report on the fire.

[hudson144 150]

10-26- working fire, 3rd due engine is the fast team (2 men)

10-36- another engine to the scene (2 men)

10-46- another engine to the scene (2 men)

and thats it! nobody left in the city of mt vernon,in other words the 2nd alarm,3rd alarm,4th alarm doesn't mean doo doo!

5 engines= 10 men

2 trucks= 6 men

rescue= 1 man

batttalion=chief and aide

most of the time 4 officers are working + the chief,so when you hear that it was a 3rd alarm then just ignore that stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest DFFD227]

So let me get this straight...

2 men on the engine? what if your the 1st due engine, one man works the pump, and ONE guy goes in alone???? WTF?

1st due truck, lets find the fire and start a search with 3 guys. Is this safe?

1 man working the rescue? Whats the point of a rescue team then?

and Is there 1 officer assigned to each rig? how does that work?

[hudson144 150]

tones go off,3 engs,2 trks and the rescue,batt chief respond to a reported structure fire. as you respond on the engine you pass the garbage truck with 3 men on it,you beep and wave hello.

1st due eng arrives and reports a working fire,you pull up past the structure leaving room for the trucks so they both can locate ifo the structure. the man sitting in the jump seat gets off the rig,grabs an airpack and either puts it on or drops it off to the side. he then procedes to the rear of the eng and pulls the 3" line with a 2 1/2 gated y on the end and you sling it under the tires of the car parked near you. you then go back and you pull the 1 1/34 off and stretch it to the front door of the structure.usually done by yourself!

1st due truck arrives and the crew goes to the fire floor to either force entry and or to the roof to open up,phew,im getting tired typing this,2nd due eng driver usually helps the 1st due driver,his backstep man goes and gets a standpipe pack off the 1st truck ifo the building. 3rd due eng is designated as the fast team.(another smoke screen)2nd due truck goes to the floor above the fire and does searches,1 man rescue-goes in on the line and assists putting the fire out,bang boom bang-you all run out of both air and gas,you get out of the building and get another bottle,go back in and bust your butt and really get exhausted,come out and then thats it,you are done! you then rest and then get a 2nd wind and go back in to be abused even more! YES WE ARE DEDICATED DUNMMIES! OUR OWN WORST ENEMIES!!!!!

[EMTbravo 312]

Members are reminded to keep this thread postitive and constructive. Any deviation from such will be deleted.

[Remember585 815]

A question for the "lower county."

Do any FDs below I287 utilize LDH? I know Mamaroneck Village does. My reason for asking is that with a larger line coming into the pump, you would have more volume of water and may be able to snuff out the fire with one pump, as opposed to 2 or 3 using smaller hoses. This may free up 1 or 2 more firefighters instead of commiting them to MPO duties.

It still wouldn't fix the lack of personnel - which is a shame. I only hope that a solution to the manpower problem in Mount Vernon comes soon. Paycheck or no paycheck, we're all brothers in the service and should be voicing our opinions when its a matter of safety.

[RES20CUE 40]

The Town of Mamaroneck also uses LDH.

[DMA327 12]

After hearing that from Hudson...

Much credit and props for working their butts off all day long going on runs with a very under-manned job!

[ndemarse 0]

There was LDH on the ground at the Mt Vernon Job. It looks like it was led out from at least 2 of the 4 engines.

[Guest DFFD227]

demarse, did you get any shots?

[ndemarse 0]

yeah, my non-html self cannot figure out how to post them though. I do have them here though

[ndemarse 0]

Hello all:

My pics are posted on Tommy's sight.

http://www.nycfire.net/gallery/album90

http://' target="_blank">

[Guest DFFD227]

=D> nice shots, what kind of camera do you use?

[ndemarse 0]

Digital Rebel. Had my new fast sigma lens for night shots. I prefer using natural light than flash myself. That's what some of the blur is.

[hudson144 150]

nate,nice shots! real nice work. its amazing how the mutual aid tower ladders didn't show up in the pictures! lol, keep up the good work.