Being Pushed Through Red Lights

[x635 4,066]

Found this in the "Gridlock Sam FROM THE MAILBAG" section of the Daily News yesterday.

Dear Gridlock Sam,

What's the law regarding being "pushed" through a red light by an emergency service vehicle with lights and sirens blaring?

Roberto via email

Dear Roberto,

You must yield the right of way to an emergency vehicle even if it means running a red light. According to Vehicle and Traffic Law 1144(a), "the driver shall yield the right of way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to the right hand edge or curb of the roadway, clear any intersection and shall stop and remain in position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, unless otherwise directed by a police officer"

-Gridlock Sam

Now, my question is, if you "push" someone through a red light, and if they get hit, who is at fault?

[res6cue 67]

You're ALWAYS at fault! Even if you're not, you have an extremely high chance of not just getting sued, but getting charged with a crime! We live in a much to litigious society these days, and sadly it is impacting how we do our jobs in certain ways. It seems every month we're seeing news stories about an apparatus operator getting charged with negligence or something worse.

[bob803 1]

Great Question if they get hit what about the vehicle that hit them. Why didn't that vehicle yield to the emergency vehicle? Also the vehicle that went into the intersection should use as much cation as possible. As an officer I try to instruct my drivers to stay left as most vehicles want to yield to the right.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

You're ALWAYS at fault! Even if you're not, you have an extremely high chance of not just getting sued, but getting charged with a crime!

What?!? That statement makes no sense what so ever. If your not at fault, you are not at fault that is what accident investigations and reports are for. That's like chicken little. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We live in a much to litigious society these days, and sadly it is impacting how we do our jobs in certain ways.

Sadly? Most of the lawsuits I've seen out there are directly attributed to negligence. More often in those cases there are defined standards and laws that prohibit much that has gone on or should limit the injuries. I don't know about many of you, but I do not go around thinking I may get sued for something I do. However under certain conditions I do know that if I do not follow certain applicable standards and/or law I very well can in the event something occurs. Can a lawsuit be brought forward, absolutely, but in most cases civil judges can smell BS and if your attorney believes for a second that something is amiss they will settle.

It seems every month we're seeing news stories about an apparatus operator getting charged with negligence or something worse.

And why were they charged? Because there was evidence above and beyond that showed they were negligent. What makes us so special? After the criminal charges are addressed that is when they will have to deal with the civil side of things. I've seen first hand many vehicle operators get tickets for failure to yield to an emergency vehicle by a police officer because they struck an emergency vehicle whom had the red light. In some sense this is right, but I've seen it where the said operator of the emergency vehicle, if they had ensured the right of way was given, by waiting a few more seconds, would not have had their vehicle hit at all. If going by the you're always wrong statement every time I have witnessed this or been at the scene of this occuring there would be lawsuits all over.

Homer you are right. However, we must take into account the public many times panics or just does not know what to do. We've both seen this time and time again in the fire service and in our prior emergency service experiences. I"ve seen fire apparatus "push" a vehicle into an intersection where another engine was approaching from the left and it was nearly disasterous. We have to remember and use common sense and as we teach, always expect the other driver to do what is unexpected.

[x635 4,066]

My curiousity is if that you are operating the apparatus in an appropriate matter, and the citizens follows the law by going through the next intersection and gets hit, then how can we be held responsible if that is what the law says you are supposed to do.

Granted, I know there will be people after money no matter what, but if you are operating the vehicle in a proper manner, and the citizen tries to do the right thing, yet gets struck, I would imagine the only truley liable person would be the person who hit the person who went through the light.

I think many of us, especially those who have worked in urban areas, have experienced the "pushing" people through an intersection situation many times. Of course though, most use it as an excuse to blow the red light.

At a busy intersection, that it would be unsafe to push traffic through, I sometimes just turn off my siren and wait a few second till traffic clears.

Edited December 8, 2006 by x635

[Guest]

In 19 years as a PO and 28 years as FD, and taking numerous EVOC courses I have never read, or been instructed "To push" traffic through an intersection. I totally disagree with this. If I ever responded to an accident as a result of an emergency vehicle "Pushing" someone thur an intersection, I would make sure that the operator of that said vehicle was held responsible. I do not interput and it does not say that to clear an intersection means to run any lights.

[ldrco195 17]

In my town we operate the opticom system and this for the most part eleminates the need to push other drivers thru red lights.

If the opticom does not trip or the traffic is so heavy that it is not moving well we take the oncoming lane.

We have an intersection in our town that see's upwards of 60-80k cars a day thru it during the holiday season. We have US route 22 & PA route 48 at that intersection. 22 & 48

We are aggressive apparatus operators but if you ever have the interest we do offer an observational ride along. Monroeville Volunteer Fire Co. 5

Here are some links to some info about our town:

http://www.monroeville.pa.us/about/about.html

The Comp Plan.. Very Intersting Reading

[khas143 13]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PUSHING A VEHICLE THROUGH AN INTERSECTION!!!

I have never heard of such a thing. If you are operating a fire or ems vehicle (authorized emergency vehicle) you are required to have both your lights and sirens on. Because of that fact, your failure to do so will constitute operation as a civilian vehicle. I would never suggest that any emergency vehicle operator respond to a "Code 3" (or whatever your department calls it) call without lights and sirens.

If a vehicle that is in front of you runs a red light to get out of your way that is THEIR FAULT, not the operator of the emergency vehicles. It is the responsibility of the operator not to break any vehicle and traffic laws without due care, however, you are not responsible for the actions of a vehicle that runs a red light. You are responsible for your actions (i.e. -- going through a red light and a vehicle striking you).

The fact of the matter is everybody will sue because that is the nature of our society. Hopefully, there will be some sort of civil penalty for frivilouse lawsuity but that is another topic altogether.

Stay safe..

[John Meeker Jr 0]

As a vehicle operator I would prefer that no one moves as I come through. That leaves it to me to go around and find a clear path through the intersection. If everyone stay still and does not move then no one crashs. This would put the most control in my hands and this is never the case. In our town the on coming lane is almost always an option at all intersections. If you can establish your pesents and slowly move through the intersection there should be no reason to have a person pushed throught the intersection.

[Monty 35]

Working in Midtown NYC, you see this quite often. When you have one way streets stopped at the intersection 2 or 3 cars deep, you can't go around.

It seems most often it is the ambulances leaning on the horn, and I can certainly see why the questioner spoke up. If you're sitting at an intersection and a car length or two behind is this incessant noise, it's very tempting to make it stop by getting out the way.

As to the legality and interpretation of the law, I guess that's for the lawyers!

I'd be very surprised if this is an issue in WC though.

[Sean11FD 3]

Im sure a lot of you know this, but if your driving an emergency vehicle, expecially through traffic, and at intersections, use the sirens, and dont be afaraid to use em. A week or so ago, I saw an ambulance, sitting in traffic, with lights on (no sirens), then pulled out into what was oncoming traffic. Thankfully he didnt get hit. When he pulled up to/in to the intersection...just a few hits of the wail, and that was it. This was a busy street, no side road. Im no expert but to me, and to the guy I was with (an ex ambulance driving instructor), it looked fairly dangerous.

[210 91]

Nobody has the right to push anyone through a red light at an intersection for any reason period. If it take an extra minute so be it. For those who practice this get over trying to save the world and drawing attention to yourself, your rig and all your lights, sirens, and horns. This action only brings negative feelings from the public.

[Guest]

There is no doubt no one should be pushed through an intersection, but it does happen and does pose a risk -- but is this acceptable? I'll give you a for instance: Often i find myself driving the ambulance i work on up to Vasser/Saint Francis from Western Putnam County. Anyone that has driven up Route 9 in Dutchess knows how busy it is and know show many lights there are. I've always found Route 9 to be one of the most difficult roads to drive Code 3 on, its extremely dangerous. What i try to do is move up through the middle lane that way traffic can yield to the right or left of me (9 has a non existent shoulder and with the volume on the road not everyone can yield to the right) but once you hit the first 2 or 3 rows of cars towards the light, your in trouble. Where do these cars go? Sometimes they can manage to make a shallow right or left and squeak into the next lane, but this is rare. Often the drivers will just blow the red and pull over to the right ahead of me. While i don't think this is the best option, there really is no other alternative and if i was in my POV in a similar situation and traffic was stopped at all directions i would probably blow the red and yield to the right immediately. It's just one of those things...if you ask me.

[gss131 212]

so long as they are not going to your house right.common sense is the real issue here.the person you might "push" is the same person that makes the right on red whenever it suits them.maybe they should incorporate that into what to do if approached by emergency vehicle,nobody said push them across an 4 lane highwaybut you can make them uncomfortable enough to get them to pull 3 feet over when your coming.if you have noise ,use it.if you give people an option ,9 out of ten times they will make the wrong decision,solution ,dont give them an option.

Edited December 11, 2006 by gss131

[210 91]

so long as they are not going to your house right.common sense is the real issue here.the person you might "push" is the same person that makes the right on red whenever it suits them.maybe they should incorporate that into what to do if approached by emergency vehicle,nobody said push them across an 4 lane highwaybut you can  make them uncomfortable enough to get them to pull 3 feet over when your coming.if you have noise ,use it.if you give people an option ,9 out of ten times they will make the wrong decision,solution ,dont give them an option.

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No, not right. It doesnt have anything to do with my house. It has everything to do with "johnny gonna save the world" going to a trash fire and ohter minor calls which make up the majority of what we respond to.