Highway Relationships Between PD And FD

[Guest]

I do both PD and FD, and I can tell you what the problem is, Just read these threads. Both sides trying to see who has the bigger D#@!. This bigger power control thing. I guess tha the FD is always correct in everything they do at every scene that they have been at. Everyone has a job at the scene and everyone should be professional enough to recognize that and work together. Instead of looking to whos in charge and trying to justify that "Im the OIC, because" Just work together and get over yourselves. The policies are all made by people who arent out on the street doing this. The meetings fetr themess are by the same people who arent out on the street and once again its a my agency is in charge. I have PD a Cap't tell me that his crime scene was compromised and I told him that my FF's safety was being compromised if we didn't take certain actions. Next response for a pin job. while with the FD we responded as usual. single car, 1 vic pin. Upon arrival advised by PD and EMS that Vic was DOA. I checked with the senior PD on scene and he asked us to just cut the roof for removal. The I advised him about some fluids on the roadway and that we could put down speedy dry or they could just live with it. We took up. No in I did not assume any liability by leaving any fluids on the roadway. No I was not in charge of the scene, the PD was I was a support service.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Good points Preemo.

1. I have no issue with being told to slow down a response. As a fire officer I look for valid reasons to shut down lights and sirens. Sorry to some of the adrenaline junkies out there but the slow approach is much safer for us and the public Plus I don't give much credit to guys who get off on driving hot runs. We do not cancel our first due responses once enroute, we'll slow up go with traffic and the first due will verify EMS or FD is not needed.

2. If we can get out of the roadway and ensure that we can safely reboard the apparatus or get into the back of the bus, then we don't close the road or lane.

3. Often we're dispatched late to an MVA because the dispatch took it as no injuries and 20 min. later the victim now complains of neck pain or such. These runs are non-emergency for us, and most often do not get a blocking engine. The EMS crew is mandated to ensure a safe area to evaluate the victim or call for the blocking engine. Again only for the late call MVA's.

4. The fire officer on the blocking engine at any MVA meets with the PD officer in charge of the law units and discusses opening lanes or traffic patterns when there is any question of opening traffic. A little open cooperation goes a long way. We have had very few (same shift, same A/C) incidents where the PD and FD officers did not agree on safe lane openings. Though it has been made very clear to all that the safety of our personnel and the victims comes before anything else.

5. Our biggest problem with PD and traffic is when we're operating at a fire or rescue operation the PD officers want to be as close as posible too, so they leave their posts allowing reporters and onlookers to get in to the scene. Many time the PD will watch as firefighters remove reporters from the immediate area.

[Guest TOYBUFF911]

Some of you guys are turning this into a what if session and it is not. Everyday there is countless numbers of accidents that run smoothly, with no problems. As for some of the posts I just read. X635 your job is not traffic control, end period conversation. Positioning of your rig for safety is. Protection of your men and rescuers and victims is a priority. As far a the speedy dry thing, rest assure if it is not taken care of and another accident occurs, the police will get the lawsuit, no one else. Why is this? Because the police investigate accidents and are in charge and responsible to make sure there are no safety concerns after the incident is wrapped up. Many (not all) tow companies are required to carry speedy dry and it is part of there state contract, when they bid on some of the highways. As far as the battery cable thing, that is the tow companies responsibility once the patient is removed and operations are complete. They are in the towing business and thats exactly what it is, a business.

Many on this topic have to realize that certain area's do not have the same resources such as ESU, career firefighters, paramedics etc. So each situation is different depanding on which area you are in. NJ does not work the same as NY.

Yonkers and big cities do not operate like smaller volunteer communities. There are a lot of good points made here and they are voiced and made for the most part to generally improve operations and make each agency understand what role they play. Communicating is the key to any operation police, fire, ems, whatever.

[AFS1970 504]

I am lucky enough to not respond up to I95 and only go to the Parkway a couple of times a year 2nd due. So what I see are all surface street MVA's. While I have seen far more collision scenes where everybody worked well together than where there were problems or disagreements, I have like most of us seen problems arise. Our city has one of the largest PD's in the region, yet we are lucky to get more than 1 PD unit at a scene, and he/she is the investigator not there for traffic control. So traffic is always an issue. Those towns with active Fire Police are lucky to have a unit that is there for traffic control.

We used to have a Police Chief who would personally stop at scenes and order the FD off of "His Roads" and then yell at the poor Patrolman who was unlucky enough to be there, for letting the FD be there. Thankfully he is long gone from our area. Given that culture, cooperation is simply not going to happen, and both sides will become antagonistic towards each other.

As for canceling each other, there is an order in our dispatch center that no service can cancel another service. This is usually not a problem, but I have heard horror stories years ago of EMS canceling FD due to no extrication and PD calling them back for the gas leak. I can also attest to the calls that come in as no injuries and then become with injuries later because they think this will magically make a PD unit become available. All that does is tie up an FD unit, because now someone sits at the scene and baby-sits until PD gets there. I am a little surprised to here people say the PD isn't qualified to cancel FD but is qualified to slow us down. Shouldn't this be an all or nothing issue? Either we accept PD qualifications or we don't, we shouldn't be accepting them half way.

A good example of cooperation was a call the other day. We got a walk in for an MVA with "fluids all over the road" a couple of blocks from the station. We responded, and approached from a side street since the scene was on a 2 lane road and traffic was backed up. As we were approaching we saw PD was already on scene and surprised to see us. I spoke with the PO, who was doing the report in his car; let him know we had a walk up. We found a very small antifreeze leak, but it was running towards the storm drain. We put down the "Kitty Litter" while we checked the patients for injuries. Since we had the side street blocked, and we didn't need to the Chauffer drove around the block to free up traffic and reposition the engine. FD personnel directed traffic for a few minutes until a 2nd PD unity arrived, and we left.

Now we didn't have to move the rig or direct traffic, but it was simply the right thing to do, to help the public by freeing up the blockage which included a loaded school bus, and help the PO who would have otherwise had a much more dangerous scene on his hands. As for the fluids which were far less than the good Samaritan lead us to believe, we got there assessed what we had and took care of it quickly. Are they all like this, certainly not, but more often than not, these are simple calls to deal with.

Edited December 10, 2006 by BFD182

[Arrowxt 8]

Where I come from it is easy. Car 1-2-or 3 arrives , sizes up the scene and will either call in or hold off units. If we are called in we do our job with a FF protected scene when we are done we consult PD and then break down the scene and turn it back over to PD. This all stems from communication and respect for each others authority.

Arrow

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I didn't even know this was a topic until today 12/14/06. I read most of your posts and I am not sure what side of the fence I should be on. Being in LE, I of course support what I do. Being that the rest of my family is involved in FD's I agree with them and there has been many a topic over dinner.

I do believe that at times there are way to many EMERGENCY VEHICLES for once scene. Given the nature you may need more than less and vice versa. I happen to live and work in an area where there is only Volunteer FD's. They do show up in their personal vehicles and it causes havoc. Who has the scene? I don't know. I lik to think that if it is an accident I do and if it is a car fire or something else FD does. Just my opinion I know nobody thinks like that.

I do know of a case where a VFD member moved one of our Patrol Veh so that he could get through. The only thing that saved him from being locked up was that the PO was a volunteer firemen.

So I guess every situation is different and in the future there will be more disagreements on this subject. BE SAFE