Journal News Article

[lad12derff 283]

By BILL HUGHES

THE JOURNAL NEWS

On the Web

What more can colleges and universities do to promote fire safety on their campuses? Visit the "Colleges" forum at LoHud.com.

Inside

Suits pending in Seton Hall fire, 18A

(Original publication: November 19, 2006)

PURCHASE - During the first nine months of this year, the all-volunteer local Fire Department that covers Purchase College, SUNY, responded to the campus three times on reports of active fires.

During the one-month period between mid-October and November, the department responded to the campus 76 times.

The huge increase in visits came about after a state fire inspector told local officials that the school was not complying with legislation passed in the wake of a fatal fire at Seton Hall University dealing specifically with fire safety on college campuses in New York.

"In the past, whenever an alarm went off, campus police would check it out first, then call us if it turned out to be a real fire," said Purchase Fire Chief Joe Brefere. "But as we learned last week, every time a smoke detector goes off, now the call has to go out and we have to roll."

The legislation was passed in 2003. Laurence Sombke, a spokesman for the Department of State, which oversees the state's Office of Fire Prevention and Control, offered no explanation for the timing of the crackdown, other than to say that a recent visit by a state fire inspector found that the college was not complying with state law.

Brefere said that the newly enforced regulations have created a daunting challenge for his 75-member department, and that starting next month, Manhattanville College, also in the Purchase fire district, is to upgrade its reporting procedures.

"The vast majority of these calls are the result of cooking accidents," Brefere said. "Practically every morning, somebody burns a bagel, and practically every night, somebody leaves the popcorn in the microwave a little too long."

Joseph Olenik, director of operations at Purchase College, said the college received a notice of violation from the state, but is not being fined because it has taken corrective action.

"We immediately informed all our police officers that all alarms are to go directly to county control, and we're working with the Fire Department to figure out a way to deal with this," Olenik said. "We're trying to come up with some reasonable solution that protects the kids without having to dispatch the Fire Department all the time."

One of the 76 fire calls that came in during the first month of the new crackdown turned out to be a fire that was started by a candle left unattended by a student. Both Olenik and Brefere said that the newly enforced regulations do make sense from the standpoint of reducing response time, and that student cooperation will be crucial in reducing call volume.

"They're really going to have to start policing themselves if they don't want us coming up there every night and rousting them out of bed because somebody down the hall was smoking where they shouldn't have been or burning food," Brefere said.

Earlier this month, state officials met with Brefere, Olenik and others at the Purchase fire headquarters on Anderson Hill Road to discuss possible ways to reduce the call volume, Olenik said.

Among the items the local officials asked the state to consider were changing some of the smoke detectors to heat detectors, moving smoke detectors farther away from stove areas and possibly allowing the school to delay notifying the Fire Department until more than one device is activated.

"We asked them to consider, and they're taking a look at what can be done about possibly going back to the system we had in place that the Fire Department was happy with and the college was happy with, but right now it's up in the air," Olenik said. "Either way, we have no choice other than to comply with the state law."

Olenik and Brefere both said they plan to step up fire inspections and advise students about the fire-code violations under state regulations, which prohibit many college staples, including hanging lights, paper posters on walls, candles, incense and smoking inside living quarters.

Students on the sprawling campus said they had noticed the increase in Fire Department visits but had not heard about the new enforcement.

"Some of it sounds reasonable, but to tell you the truth I think they're going to have a hard time getting every poster off every wall in this place," said Kathleen Keenan, a freshman who lives in a dormitory. "And people do find ways to smoke without setting off the fire alarms."

Brefere said that while he was initially concerned about the impact of the new policy on the department, his volunteers have risen to the task.

"So far, so good. We've pretty much got it figured out that we're going to need people around mealtimes, and we've kept our response time down to four minutes," Brefere said. "But I don't want to have to make fifteen hundred trips to the same address next year."

Reach Bill Hughes at wjhughes@lohud.com or 914-694-3511.

I am a little confussed by this news report and would like some help in understanding it. There is an all volunteer fire dept that covers suny purchase and is worried about the state regulations that they have to answer all fire alarms recieved from that location. They use to just answer actual fires only from what I took out of the artical. The on duty security would notify the fire dept if it was a real fire or false alarm. Being a career firefighter I do not understand the logic behind delayed responses I.E. security calling before we respond if it's a true emergency. Do the volunteers only want to go to put on the blue lights and go to fires? The volunteers are always complaining that the "Professional" firefighters are putting them down. We always hear that we are all professionals wether career or volunteer. This artical clearly shows the difference because career firefighters don't call security at college campuses to check the status of the alarm. We respond as if it was an actual fire. In New Rochelle we are at Iona, CNR, and Monroe college all the time. We don't complain, its our job. My whole rant here is about the quote from the purchase fire chief.

"In the past, whenever an alarm went off, campus police would check it out first, then call us if it turned out to be a real fire," said Purchase Fire Chief Joe Brefere. "But as we learned last week, every time a smoke detector goes off, now the call has to go out and we have to roll."

They should have responded to every call that was received and not pick and choose what we feel like going on. If you can't handle the volume of calls then I guess you will have to explore other avenues like career firefighters.

[TimesUp 148]

"Delay notifying the fire dept until more than one device is activated"

What if there's only one device in the area?

What if it takes 10 minutes for another device to activate?

I don't think the local gov. knows what they sound like?

What was that old thread "Check and advise" Stuff like this is what creates delays in response.

[res6cue 67]

lad12derff,

You've completely misunderstood the Chief's quote and the context of the article. It wasn't the FD that was choosing not to respond, it was campus security that was delaying notifying them. BIG difference. This is not a "career vs. vollie" issue, things like this happen all the time no matter what dept is covering an area. Do you really believe that there aren't institutions that have private security whose policy it is to internally "check and advise" even in a paid dept's area? Of course there is.

Don't go off on a rant about the "volunteer dept picking and choosing calls" when it's clearly beyond their control. How the heck can any of us ever respond, paid or vollie, if we never get called in the first place?

Incidentally, it sounds like they had an internal alarm system on this campus that would annunciate locally instead of going right to the county's fire control center. Here in Rockland, ALL commercial and educational institution alarms MUST go directly to 44-Control by law.

[lad12derff 283]

res6cue,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I read the report 3 times and still came out confused. This was not a career vs vollie bash in any way I just misunderstood what was being said here that's why I ask for some help.

[HFD23 37]

there should be no check and advise you should receive all fire alarms in your response area and respond regardless of how may times the alarm comes in that is your job that you choose whether your career or volunteer you have made a commitment to your community to be a firefighter. Departments should want to do as many runs a year as they can, and the more runs you do the better you justify the tax revenue and or donations you receive. What ever way you interpret the quote of the chief is one thing the bottom line is the media often twist words so who knows what he really said. yes it did sound like they don’t want to go on all these B.S. alarms but that is what the fire departments job is its not the job of the cops to check and advise they should provide scene safety and stay out of the buildings not run in to check something and become a 2nd victim due to being unequipped to handle a fire.

if the call volume keeps going up maybe purchase will need to hire career drivers or paid on call members to keep the response numbers and times where they are it seems with a 4 minute response time to be ok as is now but one never knows what the future entails. Also maybe suny as a state school needs to look into its own fire dept even just an engine staffed with 3 or 4 men 24-7 to respond initially and purchase can supplement and support them.

This is not any attempt to start an argument it looks at both sides and says keep up the work keep responding those automatic alarms helps you learn the buildings and the knowledge of the layouts and other lessons learned help you to be more prepared for the real thing.

The bottom line is when the alarms go off no matter what it’s our jobs to go check them out and be professional every time.

[res6cue 67]

HFD23, once again, don't bring the "vollie vs career" argument into this thread or I'll close it right down. That is NOT what this article is about. This article is about the problem we ALL face when institutions have bad policies of "checking and advising" BEFORE they even put the call out to 911. So to suggest that this dept is being unprofessional by not responding to calls THEY NEVER GET is clearly absurd.

Yes, the local volunteer Chief recognizes this will strain his dept somewhat, but he also said that they'll readily adapt. This is also an issue of trying to reduce nuisance false alarms no matter what type of dept is covering the problem facility. False alarms endanger lives and put a strain on our resources, no matter what type of dept we're talking about.

[JBJ1202 27]

Being a member of Purchase, I would like to give a little more insight on this topic. The fact that we now have to respond to automatic alarms on campus is not what we have a problem with, the fact that we are going to respond to over 1000 of these a year is what the problem is. On the bright side I believe the amount of calls can be drastically lowered simply by giving students some basic fire awareness. These alarms are being set off by cigarettes, hair dryer, candles, and smoke conditions not to be found upon arrival. In the past month already we have seen a more concious effort by the students to not create an environment to have these detectors go off. Purchase was on pace for 450 runs in 2006 (55% false alarm) before this policy was implemented, that number will turn into over 600 for 2006 at the rate we are going. If this pace is keep for 2007 we will be responding to 1000 to 1200 alarms. I would like to think that any department that has that type of increase in volume will have an adjusting period.

JBJ

[HFD23 37]

1st of all no where did I take a side or make a statement about that topic all agencies evaluate them selves and the bottom line is as I said they are currently handling the calls them selves.

secondly as a chief you set the policy for your department so if you’re not getting the alarms that’s a problem and your responsibility to correct. (also Fact)

"In the past, whenever an alarm went off, campus police would check it out first, then call us if it turned out to be a real fire,"

That is a major hazard to the students that go there due to the delay, if it is a real fire, that gives a fire precious time to extend.

also as I stated purchase "response numbers and times where they are now with a 4 minute response time are, ok as is now but one never knows what the future entails." this is a compliment to these men and women so don’t read any where into me taking one side or another.

Also as stated before the media twist words and yes this article seems to show a concerned chief worried about his depts. future ability to respond if the alarm numbers continue and I merely stated a few options. No where did that take a side and I believe your remarks were uncalled for...

the check and advise B.S. has to go... that was my main point along with learning from Automatic alarms.... also "Yes, the local volunteer Chief recognizes this will strain his dept somewhat, but he also said that they'll readily adapt." as u said adapt that means changes maybe a SUNY FD... some colleges have them volunteers who are in college and live at the station and are given free board in order to respond when not in class.. All available options... no where did any one get bashed your all a little too jumpy and jump to conclusion.

I my self having been a volunteer for many years know what its all about so it is perfectly justifiable to say "regardless of how may times the alarm comes in that is your job (to respond) you choose to be a firefighter whether your career or volunteer you have made a commitment to your community to be a firefighter and have taken a oath of your free will, that is fact....." NO Where does this Take a side….

Edited November 19, 2006 by HFD23

[Guest alsfirefighter]

HFD, I agree you did not make a "career vs. volunteer" statement. Your post was very articulate and gave options based on both ways the article could have sounded. Res6cue, no disrespect, but I feel you're way off and overly aggressive on that post.

Fact is this, we all answer nuisance fire alarms. Bigger quesiton...Is every alarm answered by every apparatus code 3 (lights and sirens)? Is that issue about protecting members from a non-true emergency and the general public in the area of the responding apparatus taken into account? It is frustrating and I think that is what was trying to be conveyed with some of the comments, but its difficult in print. I was a bit confused too, until I re-read the article and realized what the Purchase FD was trying to get across. Fact is, they are getting up and answering those alarms. My take on it, hey if its 1000 more calls, give it to me.

If you really want to solve some of this problem, enact similiar laws that many other communities have where you are only allowed a certain amount of malfunctions with no cause and fine the state for the alarms above that number. If you're lucky you can get it that the money from the fire alarms goes to the department. One problem is this...most say it has to be a false call or malfunction. If any of these are going off because of burnt food, toast, candles etc. That is considered a legitimate activation.

[robert benz 344]

"They're really going to have to start policing themselves if they don't want us coming up there every night and rousting them out of bed because somebody down the hall was smoking where they shouldn't have been or burning food," Brefere said.

my 2 cents, the alarm should go right to a central dispatch, that should end the delayed notification, the school sets a policy that the fd endorses, that students be held accountable for their actions, but the big one is why the hell arent they already outside instead of in their dorms, when the fire alarm goes off. that the fd clearly has the right to demand. we dont have a lot of power over schools, but we can advise them that we will be notifing the state and in turn i was always told "insurance carrier" and they get the fastest results. correct me if i am wrong

[HFD23 37]

Fact is this, we all answer nuisance fire alarms.  Bigger quesiton...Is every alarm answered by every apparatus code 3 (lights and sirens)?  Is that issue about protecting members from a non-true emergency and the general public in the area of the responding apparatus taken into account? 

  Fact is, they are getting up and answering those alarms.  My take on it, hey if its 1000 more calls, give it to me.

If you really want to solve some of this problem, enact similiar laws that many other communities have where you are only allowed a certain amount of malfunctions with no cause and fine the state for the alarms above that number. If you're lucky you can get it that the money from the fire alarms goes to the department.  One problem is this...most say it has to be a false call or malfunction.  If any of these are going off because of burnt food, toast, candles etc.  That is considered a legitimate activation.

←

Thank you ALS and great point mabe some FD's need to look at The St. Louis Fire Department (SLFD).

"(SLFD) has implemented the quiet dispatch (responding with no lights or sirens) for the following incidents: automatic alarms, sprinkler alarms, natural gas leaks, wires down, calls for manpower, flush jobs, lockouts, carbon monoxide detector alarms, rubbish, weeds, and dumpster fires. If a call is dispatched as a quiet response and Central Dispatch receives additional information indicating that life is in danger, persons are injured, or there is a working fire, dispatch will upgrade the call to "urgent" and the responding apparatus’ lights and sirens will be activated. Since SLFD has implemented the silent alarm policy for non-emergency response, the department has reduced the number of intersection vehicle crashes greatly."

while this sort of dispatch needs to be relative to the nature of the alarm and staffing on the apparatus its something to explore maybe send the 1st due in a responce mode and all other units non-emergency. espically because isn;t purchase Fd under a mile down andersonhill road from SUNY Purchase.

Edited November 19, 2006 by HFD23

[Guest]

"(SLFD) has implemented the quiet dispatch (responding with no lights or sirens) for the following incidents: automatic alarms, sprinkler alarms, natural gas leaks, wires down, calls for manpower, flush jobs, lockouts, carbon monoxide detector alarms, rubbish, weeds, and dumpster fires. If a call is dispatched as a quiet response and Central Dispatch receives additional information indicating that life is in danger, persons are injured, or there is a working fire, dispatch will upgrade the call to "urgent" and the responding apparatus’ lights and sirens will be activated. Since SLFD has implemented the silent alarm policy for non-emergency response, the department has reduced the number of intersection vehicle crashes greatly."

←

I agree with this type of response. I do think it requires allot of research and will result in creating a response SOP. Its interesting because the police respond to burglar alarms everyday, and they don't respond lights and siren. While I know that burglar alarms and fire alarms are two different animals, it has still made me wonder why we are risking our lives and the lives of citizens to respond to a building we responded to 5 times already this week. In all likelihood 911 will receive a call reporting a fire while the FD is responding. However all alarms should still be treated as real, meaning the alarm is sounding for a fire until investigated, but some alarms like water problems or lockouts don't need a code 3 response unless their is a life safety hazard involved.

I also think the local FD should investigate the alarms at college campuses, and not campus security or police. It sounds like the local FD will be have a greater call volume, however their are many departments in the area responding to 800-1000+ calls a year.

[Guest x2371]

I personally can talk about this due to the fact we have Pace in my town. We started going to all calls at Pace about 2 yrs ago. Pace also used to do the same thing "check and Advise by security" Yes my department calls have gone up(about 40-60 calls a year). But that number is slowly going down. What I found what works well is when the chief gets there is to check and see what you have and I usually have the First due continue in if nessarry and send the balance back. But I have started doing somethings that have helped and nopefully will help more in the future:

1. I have all cars parked in the fire zones when I get on campus issued parking tickets($100)

2. If someone doesn't leave the building they get issued a ticket as well ($200 per person)

3. On cold, wet and any other bad nights when called I leave the students outside as long as possible. This usually helps get the point across.

4. The most import thing is to act professional and put the RD's and RA's in there place and let them know that when the alarm goes off it is your building and that they have to listen to you.

5. Do not let security reset the alarm till it has been checked out by fire department personel.

Just the other night we had an alarm go off due to fireworks in the hall way. To make a long story short security issued 1 Parking summons $100, 2 Summons for not leaving the building $400 , finding the person who set of the fireworks and having him arrested and making him sit in the hallway in handcuffs as the rest of the students came back into the building an hour later priceless.

It is a strain on my department but being there for calls like that and some off the other perks from Pace we still get the guys to show. I know its a pain but I will not be the next Seton Hall.

[Guest x2371]

Another quetion on this topic that hopefully someone can help with. At Pace if we get a call in a room or non-comminuntity area it only sounds in the room, If it is in a common area or multiple detector activation the whole building has to leave, Just a single room only they have to leave? If anyone knows the codes is that right ? I am tring to find out. Thanks

[Guest ksneubec]

This is a little off topic, but in all seriousness I commend HFD23, Alsfirefighter, lad12erff and res6cue for addressing and "putting to bed" the career vs. volly issue that came up here. We've all seen too many threads get nasty and be closed because of that debate. It was nice to see it addressed and resolved in a professional manner, including the disagreements. Good job.

[Guest x2371]

Firehouse.com Home > News Headlines

One Dead, Three Critical in Nebraska Frat House Fire

Updated: 11-17-2006 03:49:22 PM

E-MAIL THIS STORY PRINT THIS STORY

By NATE JENKINS

Associated Press Writer

Fire broke out in a fraternity house early Friday, killing one student and leaving three others in critical conditions, officials said.

The blaze started around 4 a.m. in a second-story room at the Phi Kappa Tau house at Nebraska Wesleyan University, said Lincoln Fire Chief Dan Wright. At least 39 people were inside at the time.

The cause of the fire was under investigation.

Three students who had been in the house when the fire broke out said they couldn't recall hearing an alarm, but Wright said somebody had pulled it.

The three, who declined to give their names citing an agreement among the fraternity brothers, described a frantic scene inside the house. At least two students jumped out windows and others pulled shirts over their mouths as they tried to get everyone else out, they said.

"There was a lot of damage done," University spokeswoman Sara Olson said. "It'll be a while before anyone can move back in."

Olson said all four students were members of Phi Kappa Tau. She identified two of the hospitalized students as David Spittler, 20, of Elkhorn and Travis Mann, 22, of Beatrice. Both suffered smoke inhalation and were in critical but stable condition, Olson said.

The identities of the student who died and the other injured student were not immediately released.

"We are deeply saddened to learn of the tragic death of one of our students," the university said in a statement. "Our thoughts and prayers are also with three other students who are currently being treated at a local hospital."

Friday morning, crying students hugged each other outside the red brick house, where black burn marks spread up from a second-floor window. The house did not have a sprinkler system, Wright said.

Officials plan to move the Phi Kappa Tau survivors in a vacant section of the Alpha Gamma Delta sorority house on campus until their fraternity house is inhabitable again, Olson said.

Nebraska Wesleyan, a Methodist Church-affiliated liberal arts college, has about 1,800 students.

___________________________________________________________________

This just happened over the weekend

[lad12derff 283]

Hope there was no check and advise policy there boys

[res6cue 67]

lad12derff, HDF23 and ALS,

I was just trying to head off any potential turn towards a "career vs vollie" debate. If I came across too strongly, I apologize.

[turk182 37]

lad12derff, HDF23 and ALS,

I was just trying to head off any potential turn towards a "career vs vollie" debate. If I came across too strongly, I apologize.

←

I understand you wanting to head something off before the pass but maybe you could wait and see were things go first. There is a bit of history with career, volunteer, and the Purchase fd. This might be a topic were some " career vs vollie debate" is in order. Debate is not a bad thing.

[Scottyk107 9]

What about a system where repeat offenders pay for the false alarms. What every room is activated will get the warning and then a fire there after. I bet after a few rooms start paying all of the students straighten up

[gpdexplorer 46]

Does anyone know if this is a law in CT? One night I was in a different dorm building when the alarm went off. We all went outside, stood there for awhile, and were then told we were allowed to go back in. I was standing in an area where you can see all vehicles enter, and no FD vehicle, chief, eng. lad., etc ever came in. I know that the FD did respond for burnt food in the oven, but I think that is because they got more than one call about the smoke.

[SEC92 0]

When I was in college, my college had our own student fire department. We ran two engines and a squad truck. We had our own dispatch along with an automatic call and to and response from the town fire department. We were located on the Mass and Ct. borders. Our local town department and the nearby dept. in Ct. knew that every time they had an alarm they were getting five members of our dept. responding to the call. We handled all fire inspections on campus and build up a great deal of knowledge working with area departments. Alot of colleges don't realize how many volunteer firefighters are on their campus's and as the junior programs hopefully expand the bigger colleges like SUNY Purchase may be able to develop programs like ours.

[JBE 328]

What about a system where repeat offenders pay for the false alarms. What every room is activated will get the warning and then a fire there after. I bet after a few rooms start paying all of the students straighten up

←

I think you're going down the correct road, as was the gent from Purchase. Every time an alarm comes in and it turns out to be unwarranted(false alarm, defective system, more than three responses in a specific time frame) start writing those tickets. Then, for every fire code violation, write some more tickets. Hopefully that will straighten stuff out and get those RA's and RD's on the same page. If a fraternity member is involved with pulling the alarm and it is a false alarm, lock em up and leave em at the doorstep for the cops, then fine the student and/or the fraternity. Public Safety at these colleges should be on the phone to FD the moment that alarm comes in, no excuses.

[AFS1970 504]

The problem with increasing the call volume for a large number of non fire calls is that we risk the campus becoming the proverbial boy who cried wolf, and may end up with a slower response to calls until someone gets on scene and confirms the fire. And what is the difference between check and advise and quiet response? Only who is checking and advising. Accident prevention programs are all well and good, but if you don't have a big accident problem to reduce it will be hard to determine how effective such a plan really is.

While I do not advocate non response at all to fire alarms, public/private partnerships can work out well in some instances. One that comes to mind is 9-1-1 hang up or no talk calls from payphones in common areas of our local shopping mall. We routinely call the Mall's Security staff to check and advise on these calls, as they likely have someone walking by the area and can respond much faster than local police. They will call us back if the call is not unfounded and they need a response from any public safety agency.

As for billing for false alarms, my city has such an ordinance, and one must remember that smoke alarms that are set off by cigarettes, overcooked food or steam from the shower are functioning properly. They detected smoke or something similar to smoke such as steam or sawdust, and activated. These are not malicious false alarms and are not all that easy to bill someone for. Troublesome yes, illegal probably not.

[Guest]

I have the same thing at my school in PA. The fire alarm will go off and no sign of the FD just public safety. The first time it happened i was kind of in shock, no chief or any thing. I guess it is because i am so used to any time a alarm goes off we get dispached (at home). Even when the homeowner is home and says there is no fire, at least 1 rig will go. Genereally we will be returned by the chief if it turns out to be nothing, but we are dispached.

[Guest]

I have the same thing at my school in PA. The fire alarm will go off and no sign of the FD just public safety. The first time it happened i was kind of in shock, no chief or any thing. I guess it is because i am so used to any time a alarm goes off we get dispached (at home). Even when the homeowner is home and says there is no fire, at least 1 rig will go. Genereally we will be returned by the chief if it turns out to be nothing, but we are dispached.

[EJS1810 7]

The problem with fire alarm ordanances as some one said above is that activations due ot cooking and smoking are legitimate and usually not subject to the ordanance.

My town implemented a false alarm law several years ago. Exempt from the law are all the school buildings ,government buildings and the hospital. These buioldings are where a lot of false alarms come from.

The law mostly affects private homes which are owned by voters. No self respecting politician is going to piss off a voter by fining him or her becuase the alarm system that the voter installed and had to pay a fee to the town already for went off and a municipal service (police, fire) which is paid for out of thier taxes had to respond. Most false alarm laws are just paper tigers. They look ferosious (sp) but have no bite.

Ok, so i meandered off the original topic just a little..............

Edited November 20, 2006 by EJS1810

[ajsbear 11]

I agree the check and advise is not good. We all know that every so oftem the automatic alarm is a real fire so we have to respond. Any delay in notification increases the intensity of the fire. Up here in Philipstown we have several buildings, Garrison Institue, St. Christophers, and others where when the automatic alarm goes off everyone has to evacuate. As Pville2371 says about the students at Pace, let them stand outside at 3 AM, We're up right. If its a nasty night the better, cold and drizzle? Leave 'em out a little while and you'll see amazing results. They will get on each other to be more carefull.

[RichC 0]

When I was in College (a while ago now) a fire alarm in the middle of the night brought 6 floors of people out into the night. Believe me this was always bad. It also rarely happened. I wonder how well the people self evacuate now with a constant drumbeat of automatic false alarms?

Is there complacency now that wasn't there before?

[Monty 35]

I agree the check and advise is not good. We all know that every so oftem the automatic alarm is a real fire so we have to respond. Any delay in notification increases the intensity of the fire. Up here in Philipstown we have several buildings, Garrison Institue, St. Christophers, and others where when the automatic alarm goes off everyone has to evacuate. As Pville2371 says about the students at Pace, let them stand outside at 3 AM, We're up right. If its a nasty night the better, cold and drizzle? Leave 'em out a little while and you'll see amazing results. They will get on each other to be more carefull.

←

It's interesting seeing this attitude - not sure what the brothers and sisters in Phoenix would say about treating our customers this way. It's also interesting seeing the topic on Burnout. How many people at 2am are going to roll over and reset their pager when they hear the alarm, or worse turn it off? If there's an additional 600 runs, that's pretty much 2/day.

I would say an immediate action would be to go to a reduced response. So far I belive the story said 1 in 75 calls was something, that's about 1.3% - which seems high. Even with a reduced response people are alerted, on their way and can be upgraded if needed - still better than a check and investigate.

The longer term is to work in partnership with the institution to improve the detection system. It seems many of these places don't have to follow local ordinances, just state and federal. You get to federal buildings, they don't follow state rules.

The other idea I would see as someone mentioned is having the organisation form a fire brigade or department. Maybe even a satellite company and get them involved with volunteering for the department.