Fire Apparatus mishaps

[hudson144 150]

this morning on firehouse .com 2 incidents were posted pertaining to MVA involving fire department apparatus. All year long you read about these accidents and it appears that driver error is involved alot. In nys we are not required to have a CDL which I am totally against.This issue was brought up a few years back when the DMV changed the classification of our drivers license. Are our chauffers,drivers,mpo's or whatever other title they may have qualified or trained enough to be driving a 30 ton truck down the street? I have seen first hand drivers who tool around in these rigs as if they were still in their personal sports cars. At 18 yrs old one of my first driving lessons on a firetruck was from an old salty,experienced city of shreveport La captain. The instructor brought us out on the in active runway on the air field,we drove half way down the runway,stopped,got out of the rig and went over and stuck a pike pole in the grass on the side of the runway. We got back in the rig,turned around and went back to the beginning of the runway. As i looked at him i was wondering what the hell is he doing? at that point he said floor it! following his order i did what he demanded. as i approached the pike pole he said to stop at the pike pole,we were traveling about 45 mph.I applied the brakes and went well past the pike pole. when the crash fire truck finally stopped we then got out a tape measure and measured how far past the pike pole i had traveled. i can't recall how far it was but it was enough to stick in my mind 27 yrs later! a valuable lesson! Money was a big issue,who was going to pay for the license. i know it could be costly but it might be costly down the road when someone crashes a rig and kills someone. how is your training program? are your people driving a rig like a sports car?

Edited November 16, 2006 by hudson144

[FirNaTine 370]

this morning on firehouse .com 2 incidents were posted pertaining to MVA involving fire department apparatus. All year long you read about these accidents and it appears that driver error is involved alot. In nys we are not required to have a CDL which I am totally against.This issue was brought up a few years back when the DMV changed the classification of our drivers license. Are our chauffers,drivers,mpo's or whatever other title they may have qualified or trained enough to be driving a 30 ton truck down the street? I have seen first hand drivers who tool around in these rigs as if they were still in their personal sports cars. At 18 yrs old one of my first driving lessons on a firetruck was from an old salty,experienced city of shreveport La captain. The instructor brought us out on the in active runway on the air field,we drove half way down the runway,stopped,got out of the rig and went over and stuck a pike pole in the grass on the side of the runway. We got back in the rig,turned around and went back to the beginning of the runway. As i looked at him i was wondering what the hell is he doing? at that point he said floor it! following his order i did what he demanded. as i approached the pike pole he said to stop at the pike pole,we were traveling about 45 mph.I applied the brakes and went well past the pike pole. when the crash fire truck finally stopped we then got out a tape measure and measured how far past the pike pole i had traveled. i can't recall how far it was but it was enough to stick in my mind 27 yrs later! a valuable lesson! Money was a big issue,who was going to pay for the license. i know it could be costly but it might be costly down the road when someone crashes a rig and kills someone. how is your training program? are your people driving a rig like a sports car?

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Do you really think by Depts. requiring Chauffers to have their CDL, the number of accidents would decline. I've never had one, and was never involved in an mva w/ a piece of apparatus in all my years of driving. However, I can't say the same for those members that do have their CDL. They've been in more accidents than anyone. Many of them think because they have it there's nobody else that can handle these rigs. I beg to differ. I mean come on already, everytime you turn around there's another tractor trailer involved in an mva, getting stuck under another bridge, or the driver being issued a number of summonses, ranging from his truck being overweight to poor maintenance of his vehicle. All I'm saying is don't necessarily blame the size of the vehicle and question the operator's certification, blame the jackass for his actions that led up to the accident, if in fact it was the fault of the truck's chauffer anyway.

Edited November 16, 2006 by TPWS

[IzzyEng4 427]

Hudson,

Its not a mater of what type of license you have, it is the training! CT used to issue out CDL's for all apparatus drivers prior to 1995 (give or take a year) Now we had what was a "Q" restriction under the old Class 2 designation, now it is an "Q" endorsement with with new Class "D" DOL. The criteria, any person who drives a vehicle that is 26,001 lbs or more that is classified as an emergency vehicle get the "Q" endorsement. In CT, the DMV set up a program that take you through every step of the CDL program, the difference, when you test you don;t take a written test, but you do pre-trip, static course, air-break fail alarm test (part of pre-trip) and the road trip.

Now having that said, a person can go through all of that and they get a license, great right? But where is the training on how to drive the truck to an emergency situation? What you learned many moons ago is just how I learned, respect the big red machine! People that don't have the responsibility or takes a certified apparatus operators class such as the one offered by the CT Fire Academy or say Mike Wilbur's class he teaches or a chief driver or senior members who have a great deal of driving experience with larger trucks or small response vehicles, may or may not have the right training. The problem is this (caps for emphasis)

PEOPLE THINK BECAUSE THEY HAVE LIGHTS AND SIRENS THEY CONTROL THE ROAD.

NOT!!!!!!

People have to learn the responsibility and adapt to driving such a vehicle and while yes your license should reflect the apparatus driver designation on it, going to a CDL will not do anything more special. Heck I can name 100 people I know that have CDL's that shouldn't and they are out on the streets every day driving the like idiots. CDL doesn't give you responsibility, training does.

[TimesUp 148]

Soon after I got on the job I went to the DMV and took the tests and recieved my CDL. I just thought if I was going to drive I should be as prepared as I could. It was'nt that bad. I remember a guy on my job Helping me rent a truck to take the road test in WP. We drove around a shopping center parking lot just before my road test.

[res6cue 67]

While I agree having a CDL is a great thing (not required in NY, however) and certainly helps from a legal standpoint should you find yourself in court, as Izzy said it's NOT the be all and end all. I personally know guys with CDLs that drive fire apparatus, and I know guys with regular licenses that drive fire apparatus. Some of the guys with regular licenses are far better operators, no question about it. Why? Because it comes down to training! It is not terribly difficult to obtain a Class B CDL. Study the manual, remember the info, pass the written test then do good on a road test. Not unlike obtaining a regular license, and we all know there are PLENTY of drivers out there who have been issued licenses who probably never should've been.

[TimesUp 148]

While I agree having a CDL is a great thing (not required in NY, however) and certainly helps from a legal standpoint should you find yourself in court, as Izzy said it's NOT the be all and end all. I personally know guys with CDLs that drive fire apparatus, and I know guys with regular licenses that drive fire apparatus. Some of the guys with regular licenses are far better operators, no question about it. Why? Because it comes down to training! It is not terribly difficult to obtain a Class B CDL. Study the manual, remember the info, pass the written test then do good on a road test. Not unlike obtaining a regular license, and we all know there are PLENTY of drivers out there who have been issued licenses who probably never should've been.

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Don't get me wrong. A CDL is'nt the end all be all for driving a rig. But if you feel it will help you drive better or smarter why not go get one. By no means does it replace driver training. Although I found learning about airbrakes and all that has to do with carrying a tank load interesting.

[res6cue 67]

Don't get me wrong.  A CDL is'nt the end all be all for driving a rig.  But if you feel it will help you drive better or smarter why not go get one.  By no means does it replace driver training.  Although I found learning about airbrakes and all that has to do with carrying a tank load interesting.

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Oh I absolutely agree, anything to better yourself is worth doing. If you're truly committed to becoming a better, more responsible driver/operator, then I would strongly recommend not only reading the CDL manual and taking the written/practical tests, but get yourself into a good CDL driving school or class. You can and should definitely learn a lot about the operation of heavy trucks by doing so.

My point was more that the simple act of getting a CDL in and of itself won't make you a good driver. You have to WANT to be a good driver, which means you have to learn, not just memorize, and gain hands on experience doing it. Also, driving an emergency vehicle can be a lot more challenging than driving a rig cross country on open highways. No CDL program or test will prepare you for that challenge.

[hudson144 150]

ok i see we have some forum going again- as mentioned a few times here ,training- as mentioned in my original post it is important to learn from the training that we recieve for those of you who posted here that work with me you know how some of the guys drive. we have all rode with them. if one person reads this post that is new to driving a rig and they learn 1 thing from all of us then we did our job. the question out there is are we all getting that training? like everything else experience can go along way. people can learn from others experience especially when it comes to driving a rig. maybe i should not have mentioned CDL and just left it at a question if driver training is adequate or not. TPWS- ah never mind (LOL). take an oil deliveryman who drives his truck daily and compare it to a guy that drives a firetruck 2-3 times a week, who would you feel more comfortable with? probably the oil man now that you need to buy oil and you might get a break per gal. (only kidding here we are friends) anyway- keep going with this because alot has been said already. hudson

[Monty 35]

After I left, my old department offered CDL as a benefit to all the drivers (probably helped with insurance premiums too).

Maybe we can get WCVFA or FASNY or someone to sponsor a drive to get us our CDLs

[TimesUp 148]

Oh I absolutely agree, anything to better yourself is worth doing. If you're truly committed to becoming a better, more responsible driver/operator, then I would strongly recommend not only reading the CDL manual and taking the written/practical tests, but get yourself into a good CDL driving school or class. You can and should definitely learn a lot about the operation of heavy trucks by doing so.

My point was more that the simple act of getting a CDL in and of itself won't make you a good driver. You have to WANT to be a good driver, which means you have to learn, not just memorize, and gain hands on experience doing it. Also, driving an emergency vehicle can be a lot more challenging than driving a rig cross country on open highways. No CDL program or test will prepare you for that challenge.

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Thanks for clearing that up

The point in my post was that if there is some training that you think will help you then you should take it. Not that it will make you the best. Wether for driving or knot tying don't wait for it to be spoon fed to you. Although I think all dept's need to be more proactive in the training of their firefighters. You just can't always wait for them.

[dools16 1]

ok i see we have some forum going again- as mentioned a few times here ,training- as mentioned in my original post it is important to learn from the training that we recieve for those of you who posted here that work with me you know how some of the guys drive. we have all rode with them. if one person reads this post that is new to driving a rig and they learn 1 thing from all of us then we did our job. the question out there is are we all getting that training? like everything else experience can go along way. people can learn from others experience especially when it comes to driving a rig. maybe i should not have mentioned CDL and just left it at a question if driver training is adequate or not. TPWS- ah never mind (LOL). take an oil deliveryman who drives his truck daily and compare it to a guy that drives a firetruck 2-3 times a week, who would you feel more comfortable with? probably the oil man now that you need to buy oil and you might get a break per gal. (only kidding here we are friends) anyway- keep going with this because alot has been said already. hudson

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Bigger city paid jobs have a chauffer school. Small combo jobs the guys are taught to drive from day one on the job. They continue to drive until they are qualified and then become chauffers. They still learn on the job. People need to realize we still have to obey the rules of the road. We just can't blow red lights and stop signs. This is where guys get into trouble.

[RWC130 594]

I have mixed feelings on the whole CDL thing.

I do however respect both opinions.

Taking a DMV Road Test with a Fire Apparatus is nice but the Driver Training Officer should be doing just as good of a job (If not better) then the DMV.

I think every Fire Department, even Ambulance Corps should have an extensive driver training program and every operator should take EVOC.

Hudson144, I think that was a GREAT post. It's amazing how that "old salty guy" Pike Pole trick stuck with you. GOOD TRAINING!!! I am sure everytime you get behind the wheel that sticks in the back of your mind. He did his job well.

Oil Truck Driver is a good point too.

GOOD TRAINING and EXPERIENCE!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

As far as FASNY and WCVFA lobbying for such. I doubt it. From what I understand as told to me through the mill, that this was brought up several years ago and it was fought tooth and nail by numerous volunteer fire service organizations.

A CDL may or may not reduce accidents, but it requires a standardized testing to recieve such a designation. When I lived in Virginia, a CDL was not required, but anyone operating an emergency vehicle had to have EVOC for the specific vehicle they were going to operate. Fire, police and EMS. If you drove an engine and a ladder, you had to complete the EVOC course for an engine and then for a ladder. Even tillers had their own content. Maybe CDL's are not the answer, but a standardized statewide requirement would be. How can a person, operate a ladder truck, but couldn't legally operate the same weight vehicle of another commerical type be right?

Now as an EVOC instructor, I can't say NY's system is the end all either. The classroom portion is great for info on NY V & T law and the importance of performing proper vehicle pre-trip and preventive maintanance inspections. But the road course only builds confidence on how to operate with no real obstructions but road cones and at 10 mph.

[lad12derff 283]

This whole topic comes down to driver training. We need to make all aware of the potential dangers in driving the rigs. I speak from a paid fire voice when I say that the job should offer more awareness to the members. In New Rochelle everyone is "qualified to drive" if you know what I mean. We are expected to know and understand operations of the rigs. I don't know what is expected from the vollies on this subject but I will say that continued education and training is the only way to get this across. I will also say that I don't want to be the one who kills a civilian or one of my brothers who are with me because of a stupid accident that could have been avoided.

[bob803 1]

Just remember the responsibilities of having a CDL. CDL holders are held to a higher standard with Blood Alcohol Content. Here is the link

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/broch/c39.htm

[res6cue 67]

I should probably also mention that while our dept doesn't require our driver/operators to have a CDL, I have instructed a few driver training classes over the years and I drew heavily from the NYS CDL curriculum. I completely revamped our dept's driver training curriculum back around 2001.

One of these changes included putting together a binder full of information relevant to the job. This included copies of key parts of the CDL manual and IFSTA books, as well as (probably most important in my opinion) specific information on MY dept's apparatus. Full copies of the CDL manual, IFSTA text and workbooks and other material were handed out also, although I felt it was better in some ways not to overload them with TOO much information, especially if it wasn't relevant to our apparatus.

We also made good use of some videos, particularly the IFSTA series on pumping and aerial apparatus, but mainly to stimulate discussion and get ideas for our practical exercises. Certainly you can't rely on the books or videos alone to teach, but they are a good primer.

As far as those practical exercises, we did the standard "drive around a large parking lot" so they would get some feel for the trucks. Once they showed a fair amount of comfort with that, we would take them out early Sunday morning on the secondary roads to get the real world feel before playing in traffic. From there, primary streets...then in moderate traffic...then driving back from calls...and eventually a few months into the class, driving to automatic alarms and such. A ramp up, so to speak. We also did plenty of emergency maneuver exercises using an obstacle course, as well as countless hours of pumping evolutions.

In addition to all that in-house training, all operators are required to successfully complete NYS classes in Pump Ops, Aerial Ops, Truck Co Ops, Engine Co Ops, Water Supply Ops and EVOC as well as NSC CEVO and Defensive Driving.

[Guest]

let me start out by stating, i do not have a CDL and i am not a chauffer.

However, i would have to think that when you get your CDL you are being taught to be a defensive driver. However in the fire servece you are not being a "defensive driver." i am not saying you are taught to be reckless and flat out go around blowing every intersection and passing every car. but you are driving in a more offensive manner. Yes the CDL could be a great first step but there needs to be a lot more training that goes beyond that CDL you have.

Another thing, that CDL doesnt mean that you know how to operate that vehical. I do not want to change the topic of this thread but there is a lot more to being a chauffer. Your job is first and foremost to get the crew to the sene safely and in one piece, your next job is to operate the truck while on sene. Just because you are on scene doesnt mean the crew is safe, if one can not pump the engine or operate the ladder that can be just as or even more riskier than getting to the scene.

My point is that there is so much more to operating a piece of fire equipment then there is to driving a tri axel down the road.

and remember, wether you get there in 5 mins or 6 mins the fire will still be there.

stay safe

[res6cue 67]

However, i would have to think that when you get your CDL you are being taught to be a defensive driver.  However in the fire servece you are not being a "defensive driver."  i am not saying you are taught to be reckless and flat out go around blowing every intersection and passing every car.  but you are driving in a more offensive manner.

Actually, it's just the opposite. You have to be MORE of a defensive driver when operating emergency vehicles. That's the entire premise of the National Safety Counsel's CEVO classes (Coaching the Emergency Vehicle Operator). While it may seems like you're driving in "offense" mode, you're really driving with a much more defensive mindframe. At least, you better be!

[Guest]

o my fault. i guess you would have to be more alert of what is ahead and what is behind and all of that stuff. sorry, for that.

just one more example of how much one can learn from this site.

[FirNaTine 370]

let me start out by stating, i do not have a CDL and i am not a chauffer. 

However, i would have to think that when you get your CDL you are being taught to be a defensive driver.  However in the fire servece you are not being a "defensive driver."  i am not saying you are taught to be reckless and flat out go around blowing every intersection and passing every car.  but you are driving in a more offensive manner.  Yes the CDL could be a great first step but there needs to be a lot more training that goes beyond that CDL you have.

Another thing, that CDL doesnt mean that you know how to operate that vehical.  I do not want to change the topic of this thread but there is a lot more to being a chauffer.  Your job is first and foremost to get the crew to the sene safely and in one piece, your next job is to operate the truck while on sene.  Just because you are on scene doesnt mean the crew is safe, if one can not pump the engine or operate the ladder that can be just as or even more riskier than getting to the scene. 

My point is that there is so much more to operating a piece of fire equipment then there is to driving a tri axel down the road. 

and remember, wether you get there in 5 mins or 6 mins the fire will still be there. 

stay safe

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You must have ESP eng158., I was just going to post the same reply. Your absolutely right, I too could care less if you could drive the apparatus thru the eye of a needle, more importantly is, due you know how to operate it properly so it can perform its main function once you arrive! The only thing you left out of your post though was does the chauffer even know where he's going? I've seen guys on my job with a CDL and 20yrs. of experience run around like a chicken with their friggin head cut off, not knowing an address, which is literally 5 blocks away. Everything's O.K. though, because they have their CDL and can back into qrts. blindfolded doing 50mph. Yeah, O.K.!

[Captain 402 3]

You must have ESP eng158., I was just going to post the same reply. Your absolutely right, I too could care less if you could drive the apparatus thru the eye of a needle, more importantly is, due you know how to operate it properly so it can perform its main function once you arrive! The only thing you left out of your post though was does the chauffer even know where he's going? I've seen guys on my job with a CDL  and 20yrs. of experience run around like a chicken with their friggin head cut off, not knowing an address, which is literally 5 blocks away. Everything's O.K. though, because they have their CDL and can back into qrts. blindfolded doing 50mph. Yeah, O.K.!

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Im certain that u as an OFFICER corrected that Firefighter with hours of training, or at the very least spoke with him about his/her performance or lack of

Edited November 16, 2006 by Captain 402

[FirNaTine 370]

Im certain that u as an OFFICER corrected that Firefighter with hours of training, or at the very least spoke with him about his/her performance or lack of

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Absolutely Capt.402, oh I'm sorry Captain 402. I did speak to the members and also tried to correct it with training. I've done what every other Officer has done or said they've done, but as usual, it was to no avail. If a guys heart and mind aren't into the job, you can't make him want to learn. Like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink it.

[ltjay157 10]

Like Izzy said in CT, you don't need a CDL to drive fire apparatus in CT but must have the Q endorsment. I've been pushing for more training in my dept other than just having a "Q" license. I believe all drivers should have pump operator & ariel operator certs also if they want to drive. I've had guys ask me to let them drive to calls just after they get their license. They don't seem to grasp that there's more to it than just driving. They don't know how to pump, where to place the apparatus, or how to work the tower ladder. what good is getting the truck to a fire if you can't get water out of the truck?

[Guest]

Training, Training, Training. Like anything else drivers need training. Im not sure that a CDL would help. You would have to take a test, both written and practical, but it may not be in the vehicle that you will driving to a run. The days of the old time drivers who could drive the rig thru the needle at 50 and still place it, and pump seem to be fading. I see to much of hook up and look up, as long as everything goes in the right order, and works exactly as it should. I have seen my share of excellent drivers, put poor pump operators, and the reverse/ It all comes down to training. I don't think that the CDL will give you everything that you are looking for. Just a correction on a previous statment about CDL and DWI/DRUGS. You have to be operating a qualified CDL vehicle at the time for the lower standards to apply, but regardless of that our apparatus drivers should be held to a higher standard.

[Guest]

Oh I forgot to mention. That when I was taking my training for Commercial vehicle Enforcement. It was pointed out to me that NY had the highest failure rate on an open book exam for CDLs