Fire Chief Going Into A Burning Building?

[Guest]

some one told me at the firehouse that a fire chief went into a buring building

now i dont mean after the fire i mean actuly geared up and got a nozzle in his hands .i have never seen this happen but i think it is stuiped for a chief to go into a building its not his job any more....

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Everything depends. If he is acting as an IC, there is a need for them to remain outside. Remember though, a fire chief is still a firefighter. We all know and have our duties, and no matter what is comes down to, if you need another guy, why not?

Just because someone is a chief does not make them incapable of handling the physical attributes of being a firefighter, just because they are more administrative, and managerial due to their position.

[RWC130 594]

MOUNT VERNON TRUCK 2,

I have never seen this happen but i think it is stuiped for a chief to go into a building its not his job any more....

I don't know where this thread is heading..... but.... I have seen a Chief go in

and sometimes on the line. What happens at a fire where you have minimal manpower?

Some departments might have 1 Chief on the scene and some might have a Chief, 1st Asst, 2nd Asst, Etc....

As another member just said he is still a Firefighter, obviously a good one

if he is a Fire Chief.

Chief needs to do his job,

We as Firefighters must do ours.

Important question here..... Did the FIRE get put out?

[res6cue 67]

Our Chief works FDNY Rescue 3 and our 1st Assistant Chief is career up in Connecticut. I really don't think you're going to tell either one that fighting fire "isn't their job anymore". Yes, they have a greater responsibility on scene as Chief Officers, but our overall responsibility is to PROTECT LIVES AND PROPERTY. Which means that if you're shorthanded, it's all hands on deck. Let's be realistic also, if you have a qualified chauffeur/driver on scene and it's a room and contents fire, surely he should be more than capable of handling Command until another officer gets there to relieve him. I've done it myself countless times as I waited for officers to arrive on scene, even while operating the pump.

[hudson144 150]

if he is the chief he is in charge, he does not belong In the structure. as an incident commander he needs to watch the store from the outside especially if it is a fire. even if manpower is short you still need to have him inhis place "OUTSIDE". as far as the mpo minding the storeI do not agree. his job is to get water, maintain adaquate pressure etc. what happens if a supply line breaks during the time frame that he is in charge? he is going to try to re-establish his water supply which will basically take him away from "watching the store" when you don't have someone being a chief this is where all can go wrong. Even with manpower shortages you still need the IC to be the IC. Even with the ranks having assistant chiefs they need to be outside assisting the chief,he may be detailed to the rear of the building or to some other location to assist the chief with the whole operation. the white hats are our protection as firefighters and when they pay attention to the situation they are in charge and they are "watching the store"!

Edited November 13, 2006 by hudson144

[res6cue 67]

I'm speaking as to how our dept runs our operations. First due apparatus chauffeur is IC until relived by an arriving officer or until they transfer command to another chauffeur/senior member at their discretion (in the absence of an officer). Your experience may vary, but we do what works well for us and has for just about 100 years now.

As far as the "what ifs", we can go back and forth forever on all the possible issues that can arise for any given situation. As I said, for me the bottom line is whether or not that Chief's presence on that handline will have an immediate positive effect on saving a life or getting the fire attack off to a quick start, averting further extension and property loss. If so, then by all means Chief, take the knob and stay low.

[sr71 1]

in my dept we have three chief's. and if the 1st assistant and the head chief are on scene than any one of them can o inside or do anthing they want. as long as someone whos qualified is in command. but the chiefs are firefighters and if all three are on scene than this is how command is set up. one is outside overseeing the whole fireground. ones with the vent crew and ones inside or both are inside or vise versa. but there firefighters and there damn good at it to be wearin that white helmet. so if they want to go in than bye all means o ahead

[Guest]

maby a voly chief is understanble but this was a paid chief. ps i agree with you hudson

[robert benz 344]

this is a great topic. i see bp's rising before this is all done.

res6cue you state that a Chief can go inside while a "driver "stays outside and runs both the pumps and the fire. i see a bigger problem than the Chief going inside the building. if a life needed to be saved and all Bets are off, why not set the pump at the correct pressure, take you chances that the pump will do its job and the driver goes in and leave the Chief who was elected to do the chiefs job where he belongs.

yeah i know there are no bodies around during the day so fix that problem, and not create new ones, just imagine the lawsuit from a chief on the nob and the driver with all his work to do and god knows if he has any IC experience, running the fire and there is a serious injury or lodd. AND BELIEVE ME, I AM NOT A FAN OF THE SAFETY POLICE(OSHA) but this is 2006 arent we supposed to working a little smarter

[Guest alsfirefighter]

If someone has to use the argument about personnel numbers on the fireground as a reason why a chief can or should go inside....then that chief didn't do his job prior to the fire as a manager in recognizing and attempting to deal with a problem.

What this also comes down to as far as "IC experience" is someone always has to be in command of an incident. You learn the IC system by conducting it on all calls so it builds confidence for bigger and more involved incidents. This is very critical in the volunteer fire service where it can't be guaranteed an officer will always be on scene to run the incident.

I can also add onto this in regard to chief officers whom attempt to run incidents while they are still responding and not on scene. Or require the simplest of radio transmissions or requests to be made to them so then they can make them to a dispatcher. Decisions and requests that a person with a day in the fire service could realize they need and make. If you don't allow your personnel to operate at different levels in the system they will not gain the experience needed later to grow through the ranks. If you feel that you have to be on top of everything, make every decision and transmission on the radio then you have serious issues in your department and within yourself.

[firefighter36 52]

Excellent points, Capt. Benz. I think the idea is that even as much as he/she may not like it, as Chief, they are to be outside and be an IC. If there isn't enough manpower, call mutual aid or get people there.

Although it is tough, an IC needs to be outside to continously re-assess the big picture. Everyone on the fireground has and should know their job and responsibilies. This varies from scene to scene, call to call, and dept. to dept. Ultimately, everyone from Top Brass down to Probies should know their job, and trust each other to know that they are doing it.

I think a Chief going into a fire and not remaining out for IC is both irresponsible (who is outside to watch the men inside?) and in the eyes of the people inside, somewhat of an insult (can't we be trusted to do our job?)

Ultimately, we must risk alot to save alot, and the gravity of certain situations may force us to think and work outside of normal guidelines.. The idea though, is that if all goes according to plan, our safety is paramount, officers guide firefighters, and we get the job done in the most efficient and safe manner possible, and all go back to the firehouse to reflect over a cup of coffee on doing one hell of a job.

[redman 2]

FDNY sends the 10-75 chief (2nd chief) into the building & he reports the progress to the IC

[mfc2257 464]

Depends on the department, scenerio, and other chief's on the scene. Do chiefs belong inside when they are needed outside to run operations no. If there is a chief available to handle operations inside should they be there yes...

Take the following example... We'll use my old stomping grounds for example...

2.5 story SFD with fire from the #2 floor. 2253 arrives first and establishes command, E245, E248, E247, E105 (Mt. Kisco) TL-27 Chappaqua, E270 FAST(Yorktown) are all on scene. When 2251 Arrives he assumes command from 2253. Now you in theory have 2252, 2253, a chief from Chappaqua (2061) A chief from Mt. Kisco (2281), a chief from Yorktown (2531) plus Millwood's Junior officers (2254 Captain, 2255-2257 3 LT's)

2251 Has command

2252 Has exterior operations

2253 Has interior operations (this is the controversial "chief inside")

2254 Is the officer on the search team

2255 Is the officer on the primary attack line

2256 Didn't make the call

2257 Didn't make the call

TL-27's officer (person riding the seat) has roof ops

2061 Has staging

2281 Has Safety

E105's officer (person riding the seat) is the officer on the backup line

2531 Has FAST ops

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Mfc: Finally someone has kind of gotten how the ICS could actually work the correct way. If everyone operates with those functions on the radio its getting even closer. All that would be needed is to have other crews filter under their respective "supervisors."

The only thing I would add to your scenario of personnel...is an operations officer. You can still break it down by division as interior/exterior but having a single person they answer to will avoid conflicting tactical decisions by both. Again this function can be filled by the IC also, but why do that and add another responsibility if you have the person to accomplish it.

[hudson144 150]

to add to this I want to give an example of how important the IC position is, a few years ago the washington DC FD had a line of duty death in a single family dwelling. The dept. didn't just bury the incident they in fact had a fact finding comm. established and went through the incident to see where changes could be made to help a tragic incident from possibly happening again. they did make changes within the dept. The incident was also investigated by an outside agency being either osha niosh or some other firm and one of the things that they mentioned was that the chiefs aid position be reinstated that was eliminated at one point because of the budget. the point was made that the chief in charge (IC) should not be worrying about relocating companys,who's going to go get drinking water, the spare rig won't start in the firehouse 5 miles from the scene, these are not the exact examples but the message was sent that the IC should have all of his attention on that fireground and mainly concentrating on the incident itself,alot happens within minutes or even seconds on the fireground and his attention should be 100% at all times.

[robert benz 344]

let me set the record straight here, the IC can be inside a building 2 floors below the fire lobby whatever, he should not be involved in the firefight unless it is to save a life. as far as training your men, if with all the lieutenants and captains and chiefs and ex chiefs and deputy chiefs in Vol depts and so on if you have to leave a driver in charge, while you go inside as a chief to fight the fire again something is seriously wrong

[mfc2257 464]

Mfc:  Finally someone has kind of gotten how the ICS could actually work the correct way.  If everyone operates with those functions on the radio its getting even closer.  All that would be needed is to have other crews filter under their respective "supervisors." 

The only thing I would add to your scenario of personnel...is an operations officer.  You can still break it down by division as interior/exterior but having a single person they answer to will avoid conflicting tactical decisions by both.  Again this function can be filled by the IC also, but why do that and add another responsibility if you have the person to accomplish it.

←

Operations Officer I agree on... I omitted it in error while typing fast.

As far as these teams communicating through their proper "supervisors" I couldn't agree more. I think it is very important for Communications to provide the OIC with a rollcall of incomming apparatus... For communications to indicate to the apparatus who their contact is and on what channel when they "go responding", for apparatus to request an assignment as they approach the scene (just because E247 is from Millwood doesn't mean that it will automatically be filling the 2nd due spot behind E245 or E248... E105 from Mt. Kisco might already be onscene operating in the 2nd due capacity as per command's orders thus significantly changing E247's role), and for the the appointed contact for that piece of appratus to clearly instruct that team from the moment an assignment is delivered.

This cuts down on freelancing and the unfortunate LODD's when people become unaccounted for because there wasn't an assigned officer monitoring thier progress.

Edited November 13, 2006 by mfc2257

[antiquefirelt 994]

So aqt what point can't the chief go in? What if he's the first to arrive along with poorly staffed engine? Or how about a well staffed company? Is the officer in charge the IC until relieved? Does he go in? While we all know the seniormost or best trained person should be in command outside, this business is very dynamic and cannot have an absolute rule as: Chiefs never go in.

[Guest]

It's not a good thing for a Chief to go in. He'll lose his overall sense of whats going on. But before we jump the gun, did you ask this Chief if he infact did this.

Talk in the kitchen is one thing. What actually happened might be another. Where was the fire?

[FirNaTine 370]

some one told me at the firehouse that a fire chief went into a buring building

now i dont mean after the fire i mean actuly geared up and got a nozzle in his hands .i have never seen this happen but i think it is stuiped for a chief to go into a building its not his job any more....

←

How long ago did this happen? Are we talking recently, a yr. ago, or 10yrs. ago. Not that it should make a difference, but I can't see this happening in today's fire service. No friggin way! Not with all the Depts. now having to be in compliance with the ever so important NIMS curriculum. I'll tell you one thing, you better hope FEMA doesn't get wind of this occurring in Depts., otherwise they may take your Dept. off the eligibility list for its free Govt. handout. Can you say please pass the cheese.

[res6cue 67]

I think ALS understands my point. If your drivers aren't trained well enough to be able to handle command of the initial stages of an incident, you've got bigger problems. I would hope that most depts require their drivers have at least a few years in the dept with solid firefighting experience. Yes, the Chief could stay out side to "babysit" the pump panel while the driver goes inside, but the chances are in many depts that the driver isn't geared up, whereas the Chief would have his full set of PPE with him.

Incidentally, many of our drivers happen to be ex-Chiefs. Aside from a legal standpoint of who officially has overall responsibility, is there really any difference between the current Chief running command and the ex-Chief who just finished his term 3 months ago? Certainly not, no. And let's not forget what is taught in ICS: that the IC doesn't necessarily have to be the highest ranking official on scene, but they do need to have the experience and understanding to perform their task. In my dept (and I suspect many others) that means a firefighter/driver with years of experience is more than up to the task.

[Captain 402 3]

What about 2in 2 out ? Do you follow it, and what about your guys that arent inerior qualified? Are they used as ICs w/ they arent qualified for interior work? Just a ?????

[res6cue 67]

Yes, we follow 2+2. Our dept requires that before you become a member, you pass a comprehensive medical exam, including interior qualification. There may be some older guys who are no longer interior qualified for whatever reason, but again, we're talking ex-Chiefs and guys with a ton of experience, therefore their current status is less of an issue.

I've spoken more than my peace here. The rest of you can continue to play the "what if" game, but I decline to. I often wonder if some of you operate in the real world though, I will say that much.

[Guest]

The #1 responsibility of the chief is for the safety of the responders and the public he serves. If he doesnt want the responsibility of being IC, (unless he is operating in "rescue mode"), then stay a line officer and/or a FF. Let those with the correct priorities wear the white hat. He sells his dept and the public short by failing to take command. This chief will have a lifetime of regret /guilt and loss of his house if his failure to do his job results in an injury or lodd.

Its called negligence!

[robert benz 344]

If someone has to use the argument about personnel numbers on the fireground as a reason why a chief can or should go inside....then that chief didn't do his job prior to the fire as a manager in recognizing and attempting to deal with a problem.

What this also comes down to as far as "IC experience" is someone always has to be in command of an incident.  You learn the IC system by conducting it on all calls so it builds confidence for bigger and more involved incidents.  This is very critical in the volunteer fire service where it can't be guaranteed an officer will always be on scene to run the incident. 

I can also add onto this in regard to chief officers whom attempt to run incidents while they are still responding and not on scene.  Or require the simplest of radio transmissions or requests to be made to them so then they can make them to a dispatcher.  Decisions and requests that a person with a day in the fire service could realize they need and make. If you don't allow your personnel to operate at different levels in the system they will not gain the experience needed later to grow through the ranks.  If you feel that you have to be on top of everything, make every decision and transmission on the radio then you have serious issues in your department and within yourself.

←

ALS i have a couple of questions about your statement, not enough people on the scene and its the chiefs fault for not preparing his men for what? they didnt show up 2. ICS has to be in place, correct but who is the ic if there is only firefighters who gets it then first due engine first due personal vehicle, senior guy, junior, guy with the biggest mouth, is it written in your sop's? 3. personal operating at different levels, when does this take place prior to the real deal? a chief talks to his officers, and the officers talk to the ff's if i as chief start asking ff's questions and skip over the ranking officers the chain of command went to $hit. and this whole topic started about a chief inside the fire building and lets throw in he was on the line, he cant see the whole pic any different than the guy coming from home still responding, but i can request a second alarm thru him, or tell him under control and so forth. Chiefs who micro manage are no better than Chiefs who do nothing, the officers should be teaching the firefighters how do do their job, the chief can mold the officer

[robert benz 344]

I think ALS understands my point. If your drivers aren't trained well enough to be able to handle command of the initial stages of an incident, you've got bigger problems. I would hope that most depts require their drivers have at least a few years in the dept with solid firefighting experience. Yes, the Chief could stay out side to "babysit" the pump panel while the driver goes inside, but the chances are in many depts that the driver isn't geared up, whereas the Chief would have his full set of PPE with him.

Incidentally, many of our drivers happen to be ex-Chiefs. Aside from a legal standpoint of who officially has overall responsibility, is there really any difference between the current Chief running command and the ex-Chief who just finished his term 3 months ago? Certainly not, no. And let's not forget what is taught in ICS: that the IC doesn't necessarily have to be the highest ranking official on scene, but they do need to have the experience and understanding to perform their task. In my dept (and I suspect many others) that means a firefighter/driver with years of experience is more than up to the task.

←

do you have a sop the the drivers of the engines dont have to wear gear? why? oh yeah i cant drive with all that stuff on, well the truck drivers do it to every call, if things are that bad manpower wise, that a chief(and i am not saying it even happened)has to go inside while i have able bodied drivers outside wearing windbreakers again something should be changed. plenty of brothers around great everybody gets to do his or her job, not enough people showing up, time to make some changes.

we made changes here due to manpower cuts, drivers suit up for all box alarms

[danb 10]

Great topic. I think this gives us a good idea of how our neighboring departments work and hopefully will provide for smoother operations with them.

Here is how it works with me. Since we dont have LT's its kind of akward ( personaly i think we should but...)

Highest ranking officer on scene is command. Next Highest is Fireground Operations. Then idealy if we have cars 3 and 4 ( 4 is basicly same thing as captain i guess) one will go in with the engine and one will go in with the search team. There are some times though where we will have only one of them inside ( weather its with the engine co or search team it depends on the situation) And they respond to Operations officer. One of my junior officers is in a busy Bronx truck company and does it every day. Personaly i think it would be foolish to keep him outside if we dont have to ( he sees fire alot more than we do up here and is a valuable person to have inside with you)

If we only have 2 officers on scene they are IC and Operations while the person riding officer is acting officer ( weather it be on the line or search depending on their orders)

Exterior operations is usualy corrodinated with ideally the other junior officer ( 3 or 4), past chief or the rescues chauffer. Since we do not have any hydrants in our distrct we are calling 3-4 tankers for any working fire as a precaution. First mutual aid officer to the scene is generaly water command and he answers to command.

Its kind of a weird system but once you get used to it's not really that complicated. We are a somewhat small department anyway ( apx 40 members) and lets be honest how many actually show up to calls! So it works out fine most of the time for us.

Edited November 13, 2006 by danb

[Captain 402 3]

Again guys u have to take each Department and its resources into account. If its a career dept then there should be an interior Chief only when the other positions (Saferty,Communications etc ..) have been fulfilled, and even then let the interior officers do there job. As for Volly Dept. there is an obligation to all Firefighters regardless if they are on scene or responding in that a Qualified IC be in place at all times and that everyone is clear on how and when it is implimented. Dont set yourself up to fail before u get out the door!

So the what ifs that Rescue 6 mentioned should always be dicussed ,it will make u and your Dept better for it! In the real world.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Captain 402

[exmrvfc 0]

Not trying to take sides but I agree the IC needs to be the IC. I say IC since an alarm may have multiple Chiefs which could put an Asst Chief inside as section Chief per ICS. The guys on the inside are depending on the IC to make the right calls, call in help if needed and alert the interior crew if conditions are changing that they can't see.

Not enough manpower doesn't happen at the fire as the department is usually aware they have a manpower problem well before the call. This problem should be addressed ahead of the fire whether paid, combo or volunteer.

[dools16 1]

unfortunately, in small combo depts the paid duty officer has to act as firefighter and officer. He helps stretch in and then has to go outside and act as the IC.